Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

[zapata]

Not saying it's traditional at all, but supplementation with leucine should yield more isoamyl alcohol. I personally wouldn't try to increase acetic acid, and thus ethyl acetate, because gross. I'd start by increasing isoamyl alcohol, then hoping for transesterification from the ever present ethyl acetate. Of course along with any that forms directly from the acetic and isoamyl.

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[distiller_dresden]

Hey, with everyone talking about using vinegar, and interesting vinegars...

Anyone given any thought to using like a really good balsamic white or dark in your thumper, perhaps with dunder, infected or not? I mean balsamic is some of the tastiest shit I can imagine and I have had some crazy good and complex, oaky, pruney, even molasses character balsamics. It would in any case most certainly produce a really interesting rum.

When I get back to rum in a month I'll be damned if I am not gonna be a test case, subbing this thread, and following to see what is worked out for the best case/place for adding vinegar...

[zapata]

Honestly, I think it would be wasted. At least in the context here in this thread the vinegar is just acetic acid to supply half of an ester. You don't actually want vinegar coming out the pipe. And most of the other flavors in a good balsamic are unlikely to be volatile and come across the still. In a traditional context cane vinegar is just used to adjust ph as it's likely to be the cheapest acid available in sugar/rum country. BUT, who knows? And if you don't try it, who will?! Balsamic is one of my favorite things...

I'd go the other direction, use a used rum barrel to age some balsamic, now that sounds tasty!

[Yummyrum]

I don't know where it comes from derwo but I know I used to get a lot of banana flavour in my pot stilled rum .

Compared to what?

Compared to now when I run it througha 4 plate still .
Now ,the plated still allows more compression of the fractions and as I seemed to get predomenant "Banana" in the early heads , I would have thought that I would have found a concentration of Banana coming across ( I sample constantly out of curiouosity) at some point during fores / heads , but I have not found that .... a fruityness.but not the classic Banana I remember from Pot stilling

Incidentally I don't have a sensitivity to heads so sampling them does not worry me like some .

The other thing that supprises me is that I would have thought that the initial refluxing and slow heads take iff in a plated column would have encouraged estification ..... Not getting it .

So perhaps these Rums that appear to have a lot of Banana simply pot still and save everything from early heads onwards . .... but whats unusual there ? ...... and why commercial rum is aged so long .

Just my thoughts on it .

[zapata]

yummy, I wonder if you still have the banana but have exceeded a threshold of increased perception? I wonder what would happen if you took some of those fruity heads, and diluted with a good bit of hearts? Would there be a dilution level that the "fruity" became banana?

I've read perception of isoamyl acetate aroma changes with concentration, from banana to pear to juicy fruit to solvent depending on concentration. Perhaps your pot still banana fraction was just that, and indeed your flute concentrated it to pear or juicy fruit? I'm just using isoamyl acetate as an example, there are other banana scents, not to even try to understand the myriad combinations that could be involved.

It's an interesting thought in general, that some flavors may not be possible to chase beyond a certain level, by increasing them too much they are changed, not chemically changed, but our perception itself is changed.

[der wo]

Not saying it's traditional at all, but supplementation with leucine should yield more isoamyl alcohol. I personally wouldn't try to increase acetic acid, and thus ethyl acetate, because gross. I'd start by increasing isoamyl alcohol, then hoping for transesterification from the ever present ethyl acetate. Of course along with any that forms directly from the acetic and isoamyl.

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Perhaps you are right with the leucine.
Perhaps a key is distilling with the yeast? Yeast contains all those amino acids. The last of my five stripping runs will be with all the yeast probably. Perhaps I will have interesting results.
Why adding vinegar but not leucine? Yes, because the first one is tradition and the second one not. So I know the first one works. Perhaps different than I think, but it works somehow.

Or perhaps in the end what we fear comes true: No goat head -> no good Rum? Meat contains 1% leucine...
Does someone have leucine numbers of blackstrap molasses? I found 0.0059% for cane molasses, but don't know if it's blackstrap. 0.0059% means 200 times less than meat. So 25l molasses made up to 100l wash would need 150-200g meat to double the leucine content. Or 75g dry yeast. For me it sounds like molasses add a good portion of leucine to a wash. And perhaps all we can add (leucine, egg white, yeast hulls, goat head) has way less effect than a stressed yeast?

Anyway it sound plausible to add leucine to a wash. But I will try vinegar and yeast stress first.

[der wo]

yummyrum,
I thought more compared to which commercial Rum.

It seems difficult to keep it and cut the unpleasant foreshots. Because it was easier for you with the potstill, yes, perhaps it's heads smearing? Perhaps you could try to cut less fores with your plates, because they are concentrated? Or you simply need much more of the banana flavors, that more remain in the end.

Yes. I am also not sure, if long refluxing really strong encourages esterification. Perhaps only in the boiler, but not in the column. And then the new esters have to climb up the column and will smear during the whole run.
But I do it when using my column. The extra time and energy is not much. Perhaps it's wasting.

I have several potstilled Rums and this one is the only one with such a banana flavor. It's a white Rum, unaged. So it's not about age or from the wood.

[distiller_dresden]

What if you made your own cabernet sauv red wine vinegar, any possibility some of those esters crossed over? Especially in a thumper??

My last rum had lots of banana flavor, 5 gal batch, crazy off the worm, it dissipated, but talking with Otis a lot and we are debating whether it comes back once it's done aging on oak. Anyway, I don't know where the nana went, but it was like banana rum wine off the worm. I had put 4-5 really big bunches of really yellow ripe bananas in the mash, but I mashed the living shit out of them so it was like banana slurry and I usually boil 2 gals water and then 3.5 are room temp to reach pitch temp. The bananas basically disappeared into the dark depths of molasses, but through the entire cook my dad and I could taste them and were giddy. Maybe someone knows more how to hold onto that, or has had a fruit mashed lost, and had it come back.

[der wo]

What if you made your own cabernet sauv red wine vinegar, any possibility some of those esters crossed over? Especially in a thumper??

In general when you make a spirit from different liquids like wash, low wines, dunder, feints or vinegar, the liquids which need more cleaning or esterification than the other liquids should get into the boiler, not into the thumper IMO. Liquids in the boiler get two distillations, liquids in the thumper only one. This is why I don't like the idea to put dunder or vinegar in the thumper.
And why "your own cabernet sauv red wine vinegar"? Is it easier to make vinegar from grapes than from molasses?

[distiller_dresden]

I just thought red wine is something with lots of esters, molasses isn't. So you see red wine vinegars all the time, and you just pick up a decent cab and leave the bottle out and open, instant vinegar after a couple weeks, maybe there would be some of the esters in the vinegar to carry over as well.

IANAS -- I am not a scientist, just throwing darts after reading through the thread, and I'm invested in making ester rums, I have read the distillers guide to rum twice since I got it, but I won't say I fully understand everything in the thread. I am not beyond understanding it, I'm a pretty smart guy, not to brag or be a dick, but I'm just not fully engaging on understanding everything about all of this yet because it's, well, it's a LOT to understand everything about this hobby. I have developed a good level for rum, beginner to intermediate, and I'm just now onto corn this month and it's now 'corn time' so that's my front seat for now.

But rum, being 'simpler', you know, in a way (sugar, water - that way) is for now my passion. Also, damn if I don't LIKE rum more. I WANT to like corn as much, but I've YET to have that 'buttery, sweet corn' sip of shine that has converted me to love it as much as the wonderful, fantastic rums I have had in life. Hoping this experimenting with corn will get me closer. Anyhow, yeah, love this rum talk, subbed, and hoping to learn from y'all.

So, not thumper, got it. Thumper is mainly for flavoring/scenting notes, not adding much, right? I add molasses and wash to my rum cooks in my thumper, which has been doing alright by my rums.

[SaltyStaves]

In muck, Acetic acid is a precursor for the establishment of other putrefactive bacteria to survive in an aerobic environment. Clostridium, for example does not do well when exposed to oxygen and light, unless an aerobic acid like acetic has already established itself first. So it should be considered a foundation on which to build. Using it as an adjunct will no doubt result in something fairly horrible tasting.

I ran a wash that had developed a vinegar infection. I poured it into the boiler as soon as I had even the slightest whiff of vinegar. What came out the spout was concentrated many times greater. I couldn't get my face near the jar without burning my eyes and nose hairs.

If you want to try it, by all means do. I will be experimenting with some of my acetic infected wash in mini still with low wines, but it will be a very small volume and the aroma detection will have to be next to zero for me to be happy to waste power distilling it.

[thecroweater]

Folks are mistaking lactic for ecetic I would suggest. You can't screw with mother of vinegar she will screw you right back. You get it ya run it fast as ya can or it's all over red rover,
If you think you can have a little infection that will just hover in the back ground maybe it's time for you to invest in some Dakota beach front property

[der wo]

Would sound more constructive and less peeved, if you would support your concerns with something. It sounds a bit like hearsay.

[SaltyStaves]

Folks are mistaking lactic for ecetic I would suggest.

I don't go picking daisies and come home with a basket full of mushrooms. I have a functioning sensory system thank you.
You cannot mistake these two.

[HDNB]

i recently had a vinegar producer. it never moved on to putrefaction...just ate all the booze and stalled at 025.
i i got 024 booze out of a 1.078 mash.

prolly piss vinegar if i drank that much too.

you could even smell the vinegar in the low wines.

[SaltyStaves]

pH correct it with hydrated lime, add some boiled lees and put it outside in an open pit over summer.

[der wo]

i recently had a vinegar producer. it never moved on to putrefaction...just ate all the booze and stalled at 025. You mean 1.025?
i i got 024 booze out of a 1.078 mash. What does 024 mean? And i i ?

prolly piss vinegar if i drank that much too.

you could even smell the vinegar in the low wines. So you didn't get a complete esterification. Perhaps too low alcohol content? If not, perhaps sulphuric acid would have catalysed it?

Did it build a closed pellicle? If yes I don't understand, where the acetic bacteria got all the oxygen for making the vinegar. If no, perhaps it's true that you need a pellicle in such cases, and for the pellicle you need a higher pH perhaps.

[Shine0n]

Jesus guys, just when I thought I was done.... this thread happens!
I think I could swing a long term ferment for educational purposes, I have 3 30 gal fermenters and could dedicate 1 for the cause, the weather here is pretty inconsistent but I do have an aquarium heater that could sustain that 85f for the duration of the ferment.

There is alot to take in on this thread, I'm pretty smart and understand most but I'll have to reread some of the links a time or 2 to grasp the full charge of the situation and see where to go but I'm down for whatever and I'll take a chance with a new way for the science.

I love it, der wo you make people want to further themselves and I for one have the upmost respect for you.

I'm definitely subd to this thread!

[Stargazer14]

Interesting thread and makes me feel good about my long rum ferments, 6 to 8 weeks is norm for me and I like the deep flavors I have been getting.
If you want to try a commercial rum that has some of that banana flavor, try Plantation 5yr. (Barbados).
Plantation makes many fine rums but the relatively easy to find 5 yr has that Nana I enjoy, tho the fermentation on this is short.

https://www.plantationrum.com/plantation-5years/

[thecroweater]

i recently had a vinegar producer. it never moved on to putrefaction...just ate all the booze and stalled at 025.
i i got 024 booze out of a 1.078 mash.
prolly piss vinegar if i drank that much too.
you could even smell the vinegar in the low wines.

Yep buddy and as you (and most others) know that's what it does and once it starts it doesn't stop.
Guys I'm not "peeved" as it was put and would like nothing more than to drop this.Its just suggesting you can deliberately have a "bit of a vinegar ferment on the side in ya ferment and end up with anything except vinegar simply isn't true. Such ideas are going to the waste time and money of the new distiller, if you have such an infection your one and only option is to stop everything and run it fast hoping it's not to late or your pale of daisies will be mushroomed to blazes.
The thing is if it was left to ferment out while the emetic ferment was going on you will be getting vinegar and that's fine if you want vinegar otherwise if you were hoping for hooch sad tiding are coming your way.
It's ok to play the devils advocate from time to time but not to the point of being misleading.

[der wo]

So what do you think how it works? What's happening in Jamaica? How do they ferment for 1 - 3 months without "screwed right back by mother of vinegar"? With all the flies on the open fermented washes, how do they control the right amount of vinegar infection? Or is everything fake and there are no open long ferments?

You doesn't react on questions, you only again and again write that it doesn't work. Same HDNB.

And why a caution for new distillers? Are we here in the Novice Distillers section?
Does every AG recipe need a caution for novices, first to start with a sugarhead? And every column build a caution for novices, first to build a potstill?

Of course I know the real reason for your postings here. And many other members too. May everyone decide oneself if it's paltry or not.

[SaltyStaves]

Its just suggesting you can deliberately have a "bit of a vinegar ferment on the side in ya ferment and end up with anything except vinegar simply isn't true.

I don't disagree.
In my case, the infection was seen through to completion and then aged and pH adjusted, leaving no alcohol and a lot of acetic acid. It was then used as a foundation for other putrefactive bacteria to develop on.

So while I agree with you regarding the consequences of vinegar development in an active ferment, your insistence that its only good for vinegar, has to be run immediately and has no other functioning purpose in estery rum development, I don't agree with.

Such ideas are going to the waste time and money of the new distiller,

This isn't a topic for the new distiller. Or stuck in their ways old distillers...
Nothing ever gets moved forwards if everyone retreats to the same old formula. Greater understanding of how this alchemy work, requires more doers than naysayers.

[thecroweater]

Hmm I have not a clue what you are talking about der wo, I have posted what I believe is correct for no reason than to post information I believe is correct, no collusion or any other agenda I can assure you. Anyway I have stated my beliefs on acetic fermentation and others disagree to the point of seeming butt hurt by descention so perhaps it's best I bow out, banana flavoured vinegar is not my sting suite anyways

[Saltbush Bill]

The thing is if it was left to ferment out while the emetic ferment was going on you will be getting vinegar and that's fine if you want vinegar otherwise if you were hoping for hooch sad tiding are coming your way.

Nice to see some sense at last, vinegar in vinegar out.

[zapata]

Seems like a very polarized topic for some reason.
"Vinegar" aka acetic acid is in every wash every one of us has ever made. It doesn't just come from the classic "mother of vinegar" cultures. Yeast even make it, and make more of it under high osmotic stress.
I'm not sure why it seems like everybody has to throw all their chips on the table for this one. Very few people in the world truly understand the complex microbiology of rum, and even fewer are doing extensive experimentation along those lines. Making absolute statements one way or the other seems misguided.
On 1 hand, I absolutely would worry about a wash being taken over by a runaway acetobacter infection. But I also know that I have no idea if such an infection could be kept in check, or if there are acetic heavy microbes that won't destroy ALL the ethanol in short order.
My personal opinion is that there is plenty of acetic acid and ethyl acetate in every wash ever made for my tastes and there is no utility in manipulating that. Manipulating the acetic acid esters to non ethyl esters on the other hand does seem like a worthwhile goal.

[distiller_dresden]

Following on zapata, it occurs to me, on the heels of all the arguing of vinegar 'taking over your wash/mash', to recall I think we were talking about adding vinegar to the pot for ester development. As in during the cook, so I really don't see how mother of vinegar could 'take over' unless she reproduces like a hateful crazy bitch demon who is immune to heat, needs no time whatsoever to multiply and in the literal blink of an eye can go from introduction to taking over the entire wash. That seems silly to consider, but what do I know I've only been doing this for 4 months, all I know is I know nothing.

Maybe I misunderstood that line of discussion, but when I chimed in about adding to my thumper, that was certainly my understanding.

I do hope we get back to discussing methods and techniques of getting banana esters from rum because I myself plan on getting back to rum in a few weeks, and I just ordered some EDV493 that I had to find all the way in NZ but am excited to try the stuff, and seek out the 'nana...

[der wo]

Hmm I have not a clue what you are talking about der wo

Of course you have. What you want to say is that your comments here have nothing to do with whatever in the past. Anyway, I can't look into your head, but this is still the impression I have. Nothing more to say from my side about this.

The thing is if it was left to ferment out while the emetic ferment was going on you will be getting vinegar and that's fine if you want vinegar otherwise if you were hoping for hooch sad tiding are coming your way.

Nice to see some sense at last, vinegar in vinegar out.

Congratulations for being member number three saying that it doesn't work without posting any constructive arguments. All questions I wrote the two other members seem to unanswerable for you too.

I know, "we are overthinking Rum", this is what you post every second Rum thread.
If all distillers would do one and done potstill single runs down to drinking strength, the one who starts double distilling or building a thumper would have a hard time with members like you.
Using packed reflux columns for Rum or Whisky, using activated carbon for neutrals, using clearing agents, using infections, whatever, everything new or extra can be feeled as an attack on old proven simple methods.

[distiller_dresden]

Hey maybe we ARE overthinking rum. Cuz there's only, like, you know, two ways to make corn-based moonshine, and everybody knows that. Everybody's saying, "There's only two ways to make corn shine," and that there's no vinegar-rum collusion, and this whole thread everybody has said, like everybody said it, there's no proof of any vinegar-rum collusion, so maybe we are overthinking it, like everyone says.

We just gotta make rum great again, man. And banana flavor in rum is pretty fricking great, everybody says it, I've always said, that banana flavor, in a good rich rum, it's bigly delicious. I'd love to figure out how to do that.

Uh-- What were we talking about? Oh yeah! How about if you disagree about adding an acid and think our wash will turn into vinegar and you don't like the idea, then it just seems that's not your thing, that's cool. It's a big board! In the end if that happens it's just one wash, we learn experientially, and we post results, we all learn from that person, we move on and we can try new and different stuff. Because we're part of a community! That's awesome, we COMMUNE, so let's keep doing that as we were up there somewhat, I was rapt by discussion...

[thecroweater]

I'm not sure what proof you want, is it that that an acetic ferment converts alcohol to vinegar?, that it will ready do that to molasses wine? .this stuff falls under the banner of common knowledge and couldn't prove it in a post any more than I could that the ocean looks blue. OK here is how you make a clover vinegar, you add one part molasses to 8 or nine parts boiling water and once its cools to Luke warm you add two parts clover flowers and yeast. You ferment that in an open ferment and it will turn to vinegar as fast as the yeast can make alcohol, the yeast can ferment without oxygen and the acetic ferment requires it so you need a somewhat open ferment for the vinegar to keep pace with the yeast.
The reason I post that recipe is to demonstrate how an alcohol and acetic ferment can work sinbiotic to each other but the result will be whole vinegar not an alcohol with vinegar characteristics because vinegar is the end result. It is the alcohol that turns to vinegar so vinegar with be the sum of it.

[der wo]

But how do the long open ferments work in Jamaica without loosing all the alcohol?
Is it the pellicle what hinders the air from entering the wash? But a pellicle won't build before the CO² producing alcoholic fermentation has become very slow. So if alcoholic and acetic fermentation really works side by side, there must be a different reason that it works in Jamaica.

Two things are sure:
1. In Jamaican high ester Rum is alcohol. So the acetic ferment has not eaten all the alcohol.
2. In Jamaican high ester Rum are so many acetic esters, no way to get it without vinegar.

- Either by simply adding vinegar (distilled or boiled cane vinegar) before distilling.
- or by starting an acetic fermentation and either stopping it before it has eaten all the alcohol or having circumstances, which slow down the acetic bacterias (pellicle for example?).