Recognizing Over Oaking

[Swedish Pride]

colour has little to do with taste in my experience.
Most of mine gets the majoroty of the colour in the first few weeks, don't change colour much even after a year.
The flavour makes a huge difference over a year though, got some 2 year old bourbon i didn't like initially, or after 1 year or 18 months, coming good now though.

[OtisT]

I’ll chime in....

I would recommend just 2 of the 5” American white oak sticks for a half gallon. Should give you a nice flavor after a year+.

I have left sticks in and removed sticks from some jars, and find the spirit continues to improve over time even after the stick is removed.

I have found adequate airing is key to managing jar aging. It does not matter how long they are sitting, they all smell like crap to me when first opened; Too much wood, off smells from higher alcohols, and some of that new jar lid smell too. Yuk! When I check on my jars, I open and let air for an hour+ before sticking my nose in there. Even better if you remove a sample to air in a small glass for a few hours before making an assessment. The airing seems to remove much of the off smells and makes tasting more enjoyable as well.

Otis

[Antler24]

You have to realize that everyone can't taste or sense the nuances that some of you guys can. It is like people that can appreciate high end audio, or fine art. My sense of smell is shot and my taste is borderline. You also have to appreciate that flavor and smell are not the same from person to person. Two examples. Bitterness, they make bitter test strips to educate beer tasters on bitterness. I could barely detect it, some others were nearly puking. In pork there is something called Boar Taint. It is caused by the male hormone. Some cultures find this appetizing. Some find it smells like very strong cat pee. I can't smell it at all.

Bottom line, if you oak for 2 months and it gets good color and some good oak flavor, many people will think it is just fine, maybe 5% will have a pallet or education to tell the difference between 2 months and a year.

Good advice. There's a very well known 23yr old bourbon that people go crazy for, and there are also plenty of bourbon drinkers that say it tastes like "it's been filtered through tree bark salvaged from a forest fire".

[zed255]

So, various scenarios and no clear answers. Also little input on deciding when there is enough or too much oak. Lots of what to do if you over do it. Of course that advice is valuable here too.

Way too much oak and you might cut with white and re-age to see if it is salvageable.
Seems that if one uses a little too much oak, removing it early enough and allowing time to sort it out is likely OK.
An appropriate amount of oak is used and the oak can stay in for the long haul.
Using less oak is likely OK, adding more if the desired effect isn't being achieved.

Over oaking symptoms:
Overpowering woodiness that time does not seem to sort.
Astringency; a dryness that is kind of mouth puckering; hard, forward tannins.
Tasting the char of the oak, gritty feel.
Sensation of the wood being green (not actually green wood being used).
Surpassing the vanilla / caramel / toffee flavours with the above.

Other descriptors?

[Copperhead road]

So, various scenarios and no clear answers. Also little input on deciding when there is enough or too much oak. Lots of what to do if you over do it. Of course that advice is valuable here too.

Way too much oak and you might cut with white and re-age to see if it is salvageable.
Seems that if one uses a little too much oak, removing it early enough and allowing time to sort it out is likely OK.
An appropriate amount of oak is used and the oak can stay in for the long haul.
Using less oak is likely OK, adding more if the desired effect isn't being achieved.

Over oaking symptoms:
Overpowering woodiness that time does not seem to sort.
Astringency; a dryness that is kind of mouth puckering; hard, forward tannins.
Tasting the char of the oak, gritty feel.
Sensation of the wood being green (not actually green wood being used).
Surpassing the vanilla / caramel / toffee flavours with the above.

Other descriptors?

That is a really good post Zed255, first I have ever read a good description of the symptoms of overoaking and what to look out for.

[HDNB]

imho, astringency and tannins come early on. if thats predominant you need more time. warmer temps.

wood sugars are sweet, the longer it stays the sweeter it gets, until it becomes oak syrup. which ain't good either.

[zapata]

One more thing to add to the mix. Folks are talking about fixing over oaking by diluting with green spirit. I think it's much, much better to make and age a mild spirit or two. On a large scale, do a whole batch of whiskey (or rum, or whatever spirit you may end up over oaking), distill it to almost a vodka, and age it on a tiny amount of oak. Then you have on hand a perfect blender for adjusting flavor profiles. It's not bad on it's own by any means, think irish whiskey or light rum. But it's rather mild for what most of us want from a sipper.

On a smaller scale, and if you don't anticipate drinking much or any of the mild liquor on it's own, just steal a jar of the heart of hearts to mildly oak and age separately. Heart of hearts are kinda bland and boring, but on a sliver of oak they still age well.

Either way, you can have blending stock that you can mix and drink almost immediately rather than mixing with baby juice and waiting longer for that green flavor to mature.

[Copperhead road]

One more thing to add to the mix. Folks are talking about fixing over oaking by diluting with green spirit. I think it's much, much better to make and age a mild spirit or two. On a large scale, do a whole batch of whiskey (or rum, or whatever spirit you may end up over oaking), distill it to almost a vodka, and age it on a tiny amount of oak. Then you have on hand a perfect blender for adjusting flavor profiles. It's not bad on it's own by any means, think irish whiskey or light rum. But it's rather mild for what most of us want from a sipper.

On a smaller scale, and if you don't anticipate drinking much or any of the mild liquor on it's own, just steal a jar of the heart of hearts to mildly oak and age separately. Heart of hearts are kinda bland and boring, but on a sliver of oak they still age well.

Either way, you can have blending stock that you can mix and drink almost immediately rather than mixing with baby juice and waiting longer for that green flavor to mature.

Excuse my inexperience to different wording but what do you mean by heart of hearts ? Are you referring the the middle jar of your keepers after airing.....

[zapata]

Yes. In a whiskey it's usually just a very slightly sweet flavor. Somewhere after the fruity esters, before the mouth filling heavier notes. Might have a bit of the sour mash flavor depending on the mash. On a sweet mash it's damn near vodka, even from a pot still. Just pick the least flavorful jar you have and age it separately on a tiny amount of oak. Interestingly enough, by leaving out this smooth but relatively boring jar, the rest of the mix has a stronger more concentrated flavor.

This jar may not be there on pot stilled molasses rum, but still, just pick the least flavorful jar.

But if you have a reflux still, I advocate for making at least 1 batch of mild spirits. I know flavor bombs get all the glory, but smooth light stuff has it's place. Think "korn", "breadwine", or even just a flavorful vodka. It's good stuff with a long tradition though most Americans only associate it with generally poor quality "light whiskey" made from grain neutral spirits and rotgut . By making strict cuts, you are also making some very concentrated feints which will serve the flavor bombs well. About 90% abv is easy to get at decent speed for most reflux stills yet provides good separation for most of the congeners yet can't strip out ALL the flavor. A big batch let's you oak some to have on hand for blending, say 1/4 the oak you usually use, used or no char so it's versatile enough to blend with anything. The rest can be enjoyed white, or used for Apple pie type drinks.

[Copperhead road]

“Completely blown away.....”
I have about 30 different samples in ball mason jars of different variations of Oak and Oak quantities.
I just pulled this one out which is Corn,Wheat,Barley and caramalt that’s been on Oak for about 10 months. I thought it would be overOaked as I used heavy Alligator Oxy torch charred chunk of JD stave (43 grams to 800ml) but it’s amazing...... thats a big ratio of Oak to spirit (roughly 3 standard dominos)

Can not believe just how good it is and it’s Potstilled sh#ts all over Jim beam
It’s 100 proof good neat and even better with Coke WTF am I doing right

[aircarbonarc]

I would describe over oaking as the oak/wood flavor becoming predominant and masking the spirit. Not enough time, spirit is rough or the oak flavor is too light.

I have added fresh spirit to counter over oaking and then let it sit for a week or two. Really can do wonders.

+1

When I first started AG liquor making I got too carried away with the amount of oak and after a few weeks aging I tried it and wasn't impressed so instead of wasting the liquor I just kept it on oak and forgot. Well 2 to 3 years later and I was going through my inventory and found the bitterness went away but it the base spirit flavor was masked, then I thought " what would a scottsman do?" And blended my spirit with some unaged grain/malt spirit. I was very impressed and it tasted like a basic good whiskey. I will try blending then sitting and also I found reusing the oak helps alot. Lately I've been given some used barrel staves which work wonders.

[Twisted Brick]

I would describe over oaking as the oak/wood flavor becoming predominant and masking the spirit. Not enough time, spirit is rough or the oak flavor is too light.

I have added fresh spirit to counter over oaking and then let it sit for a week or two. Really can do wonders.

+1

When I first started AG liquor making I got too carried away with the amount of oak and after a few weeks aging I tried it and wasn't impressed so instead of wasting the liquor I just kept it on oak and forgot. Well 2 to 3 years later and I was going through my inventory and found the bitterness went away but it the base spirit flavor was masked, then I thought " what would a scottsman do?" And blended my spirit with some unaged grain/malt spirit. I was very impressed and it tasted like a basic good whiskey. I will try blending then sitting and also I found reusing the oak helps alot. Lately I've been given some used barrel staves which work wonders.

I am currently in my first year of distilling and have my first AG bourbon on oak. For my first experiment, I put away three handles (1.75l) of spirit, each bottle with a different oak profile: (2 sticks each, all toasted - 1) two no char 2) one no char/one char 3) both charred.

For the first month I was ecstatic with the effects and sampled regularly. The aroma of the spirit was swimming in vanilla and caramel and was easy to drink. After the first month things started to go sideways. The spirit developed a burn that wasn't there going in. Each of the grain components (corn/barley/rye) seemed to stand out from the others and get rough, independently. Like Otis recommended above, I needed to sit a sample in a glass for 30 mins to make it palatable. Now into the third month, things have seemed to calm down, and the edges have started to come off. The individual grain flavors have started to marry a bit, and the burn has lessened some, but the overwhelming impression on the nose is strong vanilla.

If I didn't have y'alls advice, I would have prematurely pulled the sticks by now, the oak influence is so dominant. But everyone says be patient, it'll take a year, so I'm down. Its nice to know that there are remedies if in fact the oak contribution is too strong after a year.

It must be a true art to coordinate the timing of the spirit's maturation to coincide with the full contribution of each barrel (or stick). I wonder how the amazing Dave Pickerell (Makers Mark, Whistle Pig and Hillrock) got to the point of manipulating his 2-week 1l barrel stints here.

[Shine0n]

TB, Thats a nice link and must read. I believe that's where most ("Americans") are headed nowadays to the craft stillers for more complexity and flavors, alot of people are tired of the "same old stuff" and want bolder, more complex spirits.

I for one am on that same path, with rum for the most part but about to start working on single malts, smoke and char levels and wood toast levels.

Over oaking is an issue home distillers have many different opinions on, what I may love you may hate, what's a good amount of oak to me may make you spit out the drink saging where's the Listerine. lol

Some rum from early 2015 was left on too much oak for a year, Then removed, 2 years later is the best rum I have in stock atm. It steadily improved over this time, the flavors have mellowed, the caramels and vanilla have become more apparent and is down right tastey.

I may not have gotten this with less oak but to not have to wait 3 years to drink a bottle I simply use less oak and more time.
I can have a great tasting spirit in 6-9 months in one gal glass jars.
If you use wayyy too much oak, it's only going to be good for blending another spirit IMHO

[corndog]

What has worked well for my corn sugar head whiskey, is one 3" stick dark and one 3" light toasted per mason jar and on each mason jar lid i have a cork for airing,and i store in my garage attic through the seasons temps and changes in atmosphere is key!

[OtisT]

Interesting article TB. Thanks for sharing. I did something similar to the small and multi barrel method described in the article, simply by circumstance, and it turned out really well. I’ve not done any scientific testing (like having controls and all) but think the combination of small and larger barrels works well to get something drinkable in a “shorter” amount of time. Here is what I did:

Small barrels first.
I was gifted three small barrels, two 2 liter barrels and one 5 liter barrel. The recommended time for a soak on those barrels is something like 2 weeks for the small one and 4-6 weeks for the larger. I filled these small barrels and pulled the spirit after a few weeks. Lots of oak/toast/char taste and smell, but I could still smell/taste the new make character (heads and tails) in the spirit. To me, nothing else new was noticed and it was still not something I was proud of or would even enjoy drinking on my own. I would have describe the smell/taste as bordering on over oaked simply because it was all my raw spirits and oak, and nothing else. Oak tea.

I think I could have achieve the same results here with spirits and several sticks in glass. It smelled just like some of my jar only batches do after roughly the same time.

Larger barrel next.
I was given a Badmo barrel which has a surface area to volume ratio that is more in line with the much bigger barrels. (So a small barrel that acts like a big barrel for aging purposes.). After two months in that Badmo barrel, all the new make notes were gone and I started detecting new flavors/smells like vanilla and some richer flavors I can’t put a name to. It was drinkable after three months in the badmo barrel and it continues to get better each month, though the volume keeps decreasing for some reason (i.e. I keep drinking more

I know my jars only spirits don’t smell/taste this good after the same amount of time, so I am confident that the “big” barrel made all the difference.

I can’t say for sure if spirits in the badmo barrel alone would have been just as good in the same amount of time if I went that route ( did not do a control). It is my opinion that spiking the spirit first with a ton of oak/toast/char in the mini barrels first then then moving to the Badmo for a few months so it could breath worked out really well. Some stillers I respect have enjoyed and were supprised by the quality of bourbon that came out of my badmo after such a short time.

Otis

[zed255]

Well folks, I have been keeping an eye on my experiment for the last 6 months and it would seem I now know what 'over oaked' is like. It smells delicious but has a dry and somewhat astringent aftertaste. VERY oak forward, like bourbon only more so. Mind you, I do realize I put together a flavoured 'oak tea' and this may just be what to expect from an experiment such as this.

A few things for the future, all of which I think are already well known. My top points for oaking product, in no particular order:

Air dried does NOT mean seasoned - put the wood out in the weather for a year to draw off some tannins
Don't go overboard - you can add more wood and time but can't take it away
Allow the spirit to breathe - one way or another allow a little 'exchange' to occur
Do encourage temperature fluctuations - rafter of a garage or attic work well
Widen your cuts a little for extended ageing - adds character and complexity, the congeners mellow out
Maintain fairly conservative cuts if you want to enjoy it young - less character and complexity but not hot or funky
Do let it rest for a time after removing from ageing and proofing - there is some mellowing going on afterwards
Oak at the appropriate ABV, 60%-ish - too much or too little ethanol will draw off the wrong balance of flavours
Be patient - Product may seem to be headed in the wrong direction early on only to turn out wonderful after more time
Have fun and try things - worst case is redistilling but you will likely not have to go that far

Any-hoo, just some thoughts for the day...

[dr_canak]

Would you say that's conditioning instead of aging though? Being off oak that is.

Well, aging is aging, day by day. I feel like I've been doing a lot of it lately.
I don't know what I'd call it, or whether it's the oak, or the years, or my prayers that make it better sometimes, but it definitely "changes".

i gotta agree that aging continues. (flavouring perhaps ends?)

had some on wood that seemed out of sorts, i put two bottles in a window sill for two days (sealed) and left some in the dark. two days of sunshine made a big difference in the spirit....more time? diminishing return on change. i was reading something about speed aging reactor and the wood breaking down in sunshine at the time. seems to have some bearing.

I also sat down with a craft distiller recently who explained "bottle sickness" to me the other day...he says about 3 months after bottling the spirit does whatever it does with the air in the neck...before that bad, after that good kind of idea....i never heard of bottle sickness before, but he seemed to make out like it is common knowledge among pro distillers

In winemaking, it's called "bottle shock".

[NZChris]

It smells delicious but has a dry and somewhat astringent aftertaste.

There will be a peak in astringency, but I don't taste my aging product often enough to know when it occurs in my shed with it's temperatures and my style of aging. After changing from full demijohns to a maximum 2/3rds full to allow for more O2 in the head space, I've had some very good results.

I have had a four times over oaked experiment lose most of it's astringency by two years and have fooled people into thinking they were drinking aged product when it was 5 parts new make blended with 1 part of this black 'oak essence', then rested for a few weeks.

And yes, my oak rings are kept out in the weather. I split some off as I need it.

[Michelle F]

Ok... if you put whiskey in a charded barrel won't it get over oaked? Aged for years, in some products for decades...

Something wrong with this over oaking concept!
I saw a 40 year old Pappy Van Winkle the other day
Just sayin'...

[jonnys_spirit]

Would you say that's conditioning instead of aging though? Being off oak that is.

Well, aging is aging, day by day. I feel like I've been doing a lot of it lately.
I don't know what I'd call it, or whether it's the oak, or the years, or my prayers that make it better sometimes, but it definitely "changes".

i gotta agree that aging continues. (flavouring perhaps ends?)

had some on wood that seemed out of sorts, i put two bottles in a window sill for two days (sealed) and left some in the dark. two days of sunshine made a big difference in the spirit....more time? diminishing return on change. i was reading something about speed aging reactor and the wood breaking down in sunshine at the time. seems to have some bearing.

I also sat down with a craft distiller recently who explained "bottle sickness" to me the other day...he says about 3 months after bottling the spirit does whatever it does with the air in the neck...before that bad, after that good kind of idea....i never heard of bottle sickness before, but he seemed to make out like it is common knowledge among pro distillers

In winemaking, it's called "bottle shock".

Yes. Bottle shock is a real thing. When I make or purchase wines they go onto the wine rack undisturbed for a couple months. I'll try this with likker too because I usually just proof it and drink it straight from the aging vessel. I've considered experimenting with and implementing the concept of proofing slowly over a period of time (eg; a month or two) - perhaps in the barrel or aging vessel too.

Cheers,
j

[zed255]

Ok... if you put whiskey in a charded barrel won't it get over oaked? Aged for years, in some products for decades...

Something wrong with this over oaking concept!
I saw a 40 year old Pappy Van Winkle the other day
Just sayin'...

I'm specifically thinking of the kind of ageing we do in hobbiest quantities and often in glass. It is absolutely possible to put up a run on oak and overdo it, either in glass or a small barrel.

With commercial operations quantities and larger barrels, not to mention most products are actually blends, the impact of the wood is much better moderated.

It is a two pronged situation, there is the actual ageing which would occur in a completely spent barrel, and the flavouring aspect which is reliant on the wood to spirit ratio and the condition of the wood.

[lest1]

You have to realize that everyone can't taste or sense the nuances that some of you guys can. It is like people that can appreciate high end audio, or fine art. My sense of smell is shot and my taste is borderline. You also have to appreciate that flavor and smell are not the same from person to person. Two examples. Bitterness, they make bitter test strips to educate beer tasters on bitterness. I could barely detect it, some others were nearly puking. In pork there is something called Boar Taint. It is caused by the male hormone. Some cultures find this appetizing. Some find it smells like very strong cat pee. I can't smell it at all.

Bottom line, if you oak for 2 months and it gets good color and some good oak flavor, many people will think it is just fine, maybe 5% will have a pallet or education to tell the difference between 2 months and a year.

you think your making good product agining for short periods then you taste something you made 12 to 24mths ago on dominoes and it shows how crap the other stuff you have been drinking is

i thought tpw on jd chips was great and found a bottle now its terrible

[Renhoekk]

As you mentioned, it's difficult to describe and highly subjective. I'll take a different angle - a mature spirit shouldn't taste like 1) heat, 2) cereal or wine, and 3) wood. Numbers 1 and 2 should be transformed over time by reactions with the wood into something else. And "wood" is the classic over-oaked taste....there's actually a noticeable difference between "tannic" and "oaky" flavours versus the sensation that you're sucking on a stave of American Oak like a pacifier. Once you literally taste "wood", it's gone too far.

[Saltbush Bill]

it's difficult to describe and highly subjective.

Once you literally taste "wood", it's gone too far.

Ill agree that its highly subjective on a hobby scale, the commercial fellas are looking for a oak level that appeals to the majority of people.
I would think that some of the smaller Craft Distilleries are happy to oak more or less to capture a smaller but loyal group of customers.
In that group there might be a people who like the taste of wood.
With the worlds population at around 7,942,645,086, you only need to capture a tiny % of that market to make money..........as you said , how much is too much........"is highly subjective" ....its a very personal thing.
Its an interesting topic .....we also have threads here and often see posts made that say that there is "no such thing as over oaked"

[LordL]

I have lost count on the amount of rums and bourbons that has an apparent taste of oak. I kind of like it though. To each and their own!

[Renhoekk]

it's difficult to describe and highly subjective.

Once you literally taste "wood", it's gone too far.

Ill agree that its highly subjective on a hobby scale, the commercial fellas are looking for a oak level that appeals to the majority of people.
I would think that some of the smaller Craft Distilleries are happy to oak more or less to capture a smaller but loyal group of customers.
In that group there might be a people who like the taste of wood.
With the worlds population at around 7,942,645,086, you only need to capture a tiny % of that market to make money..........as you said , how much is too much........"is highly subjective" ....its a very personal thing.
Its an interesting topic .....we also have threads here and often see posts made that say that there is "no such thing as over oaked"

Well…to be clear, I’m saying there’s a difference between an oak flavour in a spirit (complex and desirable) compared to something that has a strong flavour of wood (simplistic and not desirable if your goal is to produce an interesting whiskey). Yes there’s an element of subjectivity, however a properly matured spirit shouldn’t taste like “wood tea”. Is wood tea drinkable? Yep. Is it as good as the complex tannic, vanillin and other “oaky” flavours found in a well-matured spirit? There’s a reason that the top shelf bourbon tastes so rich and good.

As home distillers, our goal may simply be to produce something that we and our friends like to drink. For others, the goal may be to produce something that develops complexity. And while it’s hard to describe “flavour” using words, I think many people can recognise the difference between “wood tea” and nuanced oaky flavours.

[Saltbush Bill]

Again its subjective and depends on the individual person.....I personally know quite a few all grain hobby distillers that would argue that any oak at all is "too much Oak"......they like it white and wouldn't pollute their product with even a tiny bit of oak.

[still_stirrin]

Again its subjective and depends on the individual person.....I personally know quite a few all grain hobby distillers that would argue that any oak at all is "too much Oak"......they like it white and wouldn't pollute their product with even a tiny bit of oak.

Whaaaaaaaat?

A well aged whiskey (or rum) is much nicer. The wood adds character not present in “white”. And I’ve never experienced “over oaking” in my brown spirits regardless of how long they’re on wood. Usually, it gets better and better until it’s GONE.
ss

[Dancing4dan]

Oh boy! Here we go!

[Saltbush Bill]

Im with you SS......I like my oak to,.....not so much a white dog fan......the fact remains that there are quite a few who don't want to use oak at all.