dilution calculator improvement
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dilution calculator improvement
Heya,
i just realized that the dilution calculators on the parent site (both the old one and Rad's new one) don't account for volume contraction that happens when mixing water and alcohol. Sure enough we could come up with a calculator that factors that in, right?
You might think that it's only a tiny error that results from neglecting volume contraction, but say (as a far fetched example, granted) you were to take half a liter of 100% water, and half a liter of 100% ethanol, and mixed them together. You would assume (and be told by the calculators) that you'd get one liter of 50% ABV. But that's not true, you'd only get 0.97 liters of liquid, which means ABV is not 500mL/1000mL=50%, but rather 500mL/970mL=51.55%. So the calculation would be off by 1.5.
If we provide a calculator, why not have it as correct as possible?
i just realized that the dilution calculators on the parent site (both the old one and Rad's new one) don't account for volume contraction that happens when mixing water and alcohol. Sure enough we could come up with a calculator that factors that in, right?
You might think that it's only a tiny error that results from neglecting volume contraction, but say (as a far fetched example, granted) you were to take half a liter of 100% water, and half a liter of 100% ethanol, and mixed them together. You would assume (and be told by the calculators) that you'd get one liter of 50% ABV. But that's not true, you'd only get 0.97 liters of liquid, which means ABV is not 500mL/1000mL=50%, but rather 500mL/970mL=51.55%. So the calculation would be off by 1.5.
If we provide a calculator, why not have it as correct as possible?
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
But it's still 50%abv. Not 51.55%. The contradiction affects both, the ethanol and the water. You will measure 50% with your alcoholmeter
This is the reason, why many scientific papers have %abw numbers. Here this problem doesn't exist.
BTW, the azeotrope number we often quote is also abw (95.6%). In abv it's 97.2%. There is a thread about: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54724
This is the reason, why many scientific papers have %abw numbers. Here this problem doesn't exist.
BTW, the azeotrope number we often quote is also abw (95.6%). In abv it's 97.2%. There is a thread about: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54724
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
No i think it's 51.55%ABV, at least if using the definition given on the english wikipedia:der wo wrote:But it's still 50%abv. Not 51.55%. The contradiction affects both, the ethanol and the water.
So the way i read this is, and please correct me if i'm wrong here, that you take 1 liter of liquid, and ask: If i were to extract all the ethanol in there, how much volume would the resulting 100% alcohol have? Which, for a mixture of equal volumes of water and ethanol, would result in the mixture having 51.55% alcohol by volume as well as 51.55% water by volume. Am i wrong on this?It is defined as the number of millilitres (mL) of pure ethanol present in 100 mL of solution at 20 °C (68 °F). The number of millilitres of pure ethanol is the mass of the ethanol divided by its density at 20 °C, which is 0.78924 g/mL.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
2 times 51.55%... This shows how problematic it is, to use abv in science. Only for practical reasons it seems to be useful, because the contraction effect is small.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_fr ... me_percent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
the term "40% alcohol by volume" refers to a mixture of 40 volume units of ethanol with enough water to make a final volume of 100 units, rather than a mixture of 40 units of ethanol with 60 units of water.
So 1l 40%abv means 400ml pure ethanol and a bit more than 600ml water.
On German wikipedia I find very interesting topics about this problem. I don't know how to find it in English:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volumenprozent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Volumenprozent oder Volumprozent, in Österreich Volumsprozent, (Abkürzung bzw. Einheitenzeichen: Vol.-%,[1] % vol, % v/v und weitere Varianten) ist eine nicht normgerechte[2][3][4] Abwandlung der Hilfsmaßeinheit Prozent in Verwendung bei dimensionslosen Verhältnisgrößen, bei denen ein Volumen auf ein anderes Volumen bezogen wird (speziell bei den Gehaltsgrößen Volumenanteil f, Volumenkonzentration s und Volumenverhältnis ? zur Angabe des Gehalts eines Stoffes in einem Gemisch). Die konkret gemeinte Größe sollte eindeutig spezifiziert werden.
This means in short: volumen% is a non normalized variety ... this measure should get defined more precisely.
The problem is, what is meant with volume percent. It's simply a matter of definition. In German wikipedia there are articles about Volumenkonzentration (concentration), Volumenverhältnis (ratio) and Volumenanteil (fraction). Those are the theoretical ways to define a vol%. Each of them gives out different results, when you say "400ml ethanol filled up to 1000ml" for example.
One example from practice. Assuming that 70% on the alcoholmeter really means 700ml pure ethanol in 1l mixture:
I have distilled a brandy, my hearts are 10l at 70%abv. Now I want to dilute it to 40%. Without contraction it means I have to add 7.5l water. Then I have 17.5l with 40%abv. How far away is this from reality?
I have found a free app for this: "Home Moonshine" from Evgeny Kurepin. It's a Russian app, the English language setting is a bit funny, but it works. It says I have to add 7746ml water to 10l 70% and get 17.497l 40%.
Assuming this calculator is right, 7.5l and 7746ml is very different. So it looks like we need a new calculator.
But a calculator without taking the contraction into account still works very well like "for diluting X liters of Y%abv to Y2%abv, fill up the volume to X2 liters". But it doesn't work well like "for diluting X liters of Y%abv to Y2%abv, add X2 liters of water."
In other words: Don't calculate the water you have to add, but calculate the final volume. This is impractical when you want to dilute a large volume, because you don't have something like a 50l measuring container. But if you want dilute to fill a bottle, it's perfect and easy.
I feel a bit unsure, perhaps I will find a mistake in my thoughts tomorrow...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_fr ... me_percent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
the term "40% alcohol by volume" refers to a mixture of 40 volume units of ethanol with enough water to make a final volume of 100 units, rather than a mixture of 40 units of ethanol with 60 units of water.
So 1l 40%abv means 400ml pure ethanol and a bit more than 600ml water.
On German wikipedia I find very interesting topics about this problem. I don't know how to find it in English:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volumenprozent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Volumenprozent oder Volumprozent, in Österreich Volumsprozent, (Abkürzung bzw. Einheitenzeichen: Vol.-%,[1] % vol, % v/v und weitere Varianten) ist eine nicht normgerechte[2][3][4] Abwandlung der Hilfsmaßeinheit Prozent in Verwendung bei dimensionslosen Verhältnisgrößen, bei denen ein Volumen auf ein anderes Volumen bezogen wird (speziell bei den Gehaltsgrößen Volumenanteil f, Volumenkonzentration s und Volumenverhältnis ? zur Angabe des Gehalts eines Stoffes in einem Gemisch). Die konkret gemeinte Größe sollte eindeutig spezifiziert werden.
This means in short: volumen% is a non normalized variety ... this measure should get defined more precisely.
The problem is, what is meant with volume percent. It's simply a matter of definition. In German wikipedia there are articles about Volumenkonzentration (concentration), Volumenverhältnis (ratio) and Volumenanteil (fraction). Those are the theoretical ways to define a vol%. Each of them gives out different results, when you say "400ml ethanol filled up to 1000ml" for example.
One example from practice. Assuming that 70% on the alcoholmeter really means 700ml pure ethanol in 1l mixture:
I have distilled a brandy, my hearts are 10l at 70%abv. Now I want to dilute it to 40%. Without contraction it means I have to add 7.5l water. Then I have 17.5l with 40%abv. How far away is this from reality?
I have found a free app for this: "Home Moonshine" from Evgeny Kurepin. It's a Russian app, the English language setting is a bit funny, but it works. It says I have to add 7746ml water to 10l 70% and get 17.497l 40%.
Assuming this calculator is right, 7.5l and 7746ml is very different. So it looks like we need a new calculator.
But a calculator without taking the contraction into account still works very well like "for diluting X liters of Y%abv to Y2%abv, fill up the volume to X2 liters". But it doesn't work well like "for diluting X liters of Y%abv to Y2%abv, add X2 liters of water."
In other words: Don't calculate the water you have to add, but calculate the final volume. This is impractical when you want to dilute a large volume, because you don't have something like a 50l measuring container. But if you want dilute to fill a bottle, it's perfect and easy.
I feel a bit unsure, perhaps I will find a mistake in my thoughts tomorrow...
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
- SaltyStaves
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
A new calculator may estimate a 3% contraction for a clean neutral, but what about a heavily peated new make spirit?
Congeners, oils etc are non-contracting, but they tally on the side of ethanol unless they are used in a separate equation.
I don't really know how much influence that would have. Someone a lot smarter than me would have to say whether or not the potential for error would be greater than just using the standard V/V calculation.
Congeners, oils etc are non-contracting, but they tally on the side of ethanol unless they are used in a separate equation.
I don't really know how much influence that would have. Someone a lot smarter than me would have to say whether or not the potential for error would be greater than just using the standard V/V calculation.
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Most congeners have a similar SG like water or ethanol. At least the congeners our spirits have in relative great amounts. And their threshold is low. Doesn't need much to smell them. Even the (very heavy) solids in aged spirits like caramel are not measurable with normal range hydrometers. Only extreme high Sherry levels in Malt Whiskies are perhaps measurable.
A heavily peated Whisky has 50ppm phenols. This means 0.005%.
A high ester rum has 300-600g/hlpa esters. This means 0.15-0.3%. And the main ester ethylacetate has a SG between ethanol and water, so it won't affect the measurement much in a water-ethanol mixture.
No way to measure such things by gravity.
A heavily peated Whisky has 50ppm phenols. This means 0.005%.
A high ester rum has 300-600g/hlpa esters. This means 0.15-0.3%. And the main ester ethylacetate has a SG between ethanol and water, so it won't affect the measurement much in a water-ethanol mixture.
No way to measure such things by gravity.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
- SaltyStaves
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
If we can calculate contraction as being the same (or near enough) for both a clean neutral and a heavily new make with a deep tails cut etc, then I'd be happy with a new calculator.
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Yes, a better calculator would be nice. It's not easy to calculate the contraction AFAIK. Perhaps there is no formula, but only some empirically determined data? Similar like the wash abv, boiling temp and vapor abv calculators?
Here someone built an app with the help of the ADI forum:
http://adiforums.com/topic/6519-is-ther ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Now he sells it for much money...
https://www.katmarsoftware.com/alcodens.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
195$, only a trial is free.
The Russian app is for free.
Whatever, it would be great to have such a calculator on the parent site.
Here someone built an app with the help of the ADI forum:
http://adiforums.com/topic/6519-is-ther ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Now he sells it for much money...
https://www.katmarsoftware.com/alcodens.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
195$, only a trial is free.
The Russian app is for free.
Whatever, it would be great to have such a calculator on the parent site.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Probably a calculator would work like this:
10 liters of 70%abv diluted to 40%abv. How much water is needed?
At first we have to calculate the %abv into %abw and the liters into kg. For this there are charts:
https://www.hamm-chemie.de/j11/j11db/et ... emisch.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
We need a program fed with this data, which is able also to calculate also the data between the points. It would calculate, that 70%abv is around 62.5%abw and 40%abv is around 33.3%abw. And 10 liters 70%abv around 8.87kg
Then 8.87 x 62.5 = ? x 33.3
? = 8.87 x 62.5 / 33.3
? = 16.65kg
The brandy diluted to 40%abv will weigh 16.65kg.
16.65 - 8.87 = 7.78kg = 7.78 liter water have to be added.
10 liters of 70%abv diluted to 40%abv. How much water is needed?
At first we have to calculate the %abv into %abw and the liters into kg. For this there are charts:
https://www.hamm-chemie.de/j11/j11db/et ... emisch.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
We need a program fed with this data, which is able also to calculate also the data between the points. It would calculate, that 70%abv is around 62.5%abw and 40%abv is around 33.3%abw. And 10 liters 70%abv around 8.87kg
Then 8.87 x 62.5 = ? x 33.3
? = 8.87 x 62.5 / 33.3
? = 16.65kg
The brandy diluted to 40%abv will weigh 16.65kg.
16.65 - 8.87 = 7.78kg = 7.78 liter water have to be added.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
alright, so i played around in python3 a little.
i've used the data available online here, laid a spline interpolation over it since that seemed like a good choice to me, and used the resulting function with a lot of confusing unit conversions and a newton iteration to effectively get the inverse of the spline function, so that i can relate %abv to the water volume used.
the data it produces looks ok to me at first glance, but i may very well have made a mistake somewhere. any coders, scientists or python enthusiasts here that'd like to check my work? i've done my best make it readable and understandable.
here's the output:
and here the actual code:
i'll make this into an interactive prompt, the list is just to check whether the data makes sense at all.
i've used the data available online here, laid a spline interpolation over it since that seemed like a good choice to me, and used the resulting function with a lot of confusing unit conversions and a newton iteration to effectively get the inverse of the spline function, so that i can relate %abv to the water volume used.
the data it produces looks ok to me at first glance, but i may very well have made a mistake somewhere. any coders, scientists or python enthusiasts here that'd like to check my work? i've done my best make it readable and understandable.
here's the output:
READ MORE:
READ MORE:
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Can't say anything about coding and programming. And I don't know, how you calculated those numbers from the link. But when I look at the amounts you have to add if you want to dilute to the half abv, it's a bit strange:
- From 100% to 50% add 1.07. This sounds plausible for me.
- From 60% to 30% add 1.017. The lower the abv the less contraction when you dilute it. Sounds plausible. But the difference between 1.07 and 1.017 sounds huge for me. I am unsure.
- From 20% to 10% add 0.998. What??? Negative contraction? Expansion? Sounds impossible for me.
Funny thing is, that I get the same numbers by using the Russian Moonshine app... Perhaps you are right?
But with my calculation:
20%abv is 16.25%abw and has a SG of 0.9753
10%abv is 8%abw
? = 0.9753 x 16.25 : 8 = 1.981
1.981 - 0.9753 = 1.006
So I calculate 1.006 instead of your 0.998. And this sounds plausible. Low abv diluting also has contraction, but not much.
But this doesn't mean I am necessarily right.
If noone finds information about expansion when diluting alcohol, I think your calc and the Russian app both are wrong.
Perhaps this is interesting:
http://alcbevtesting.com/wp-content/upl ... nTable.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
A huge expansion from 30 -> 15%: 96.7!!! But nothing at 40 -> 20% or 20 -> 10%...
- From 100% to 50% add 1.07. This sounds plausible for me.
- From 60% to 30% add 1.017. The lower the abv the less contraction when you dilute it. Sounds plausible. But the difference between 1.07 and 1.017 sounds huge for me. I am unsure.
- From 20% to 10% add 0.998. What??? Negative contraction? Expansion? Sounds impossible for me.
Funny thing is, that I get the same numbers by using the Russian Moonshine app... Perhaps you are right?
But with my calculation:
20%abv is 16.25%abw and has a SG of 0.9753
10%abv is 8%abw
? = 0.9753 x 16.25 : 8 = 1.981
1.981 - 0.9753 = 1.006
So I calculate 1.006 instead of your 0.998. And this sounds plausible. Low abv diluting also has contraction, but not much.
But this doesn't mean I am necessarily right.
If noone finds information about expansion when diluting alcohol, I think your calc and the Russian app both are wrong.
Perhaps this is interesting:
http://alcbevtesting.com/wp-content/upl ... nTable.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
A huge expansion from 30 -> 15%: 96.7!!! But nothing at 40 -> 20% or 20 -> 10%...
Last edited by der wo on Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Just for fun I have downloaded the free trial of the expensive AlcoDens app and played a bit:
2%abv diluted to 1% -> 0.99996
4% to 2% -> 0.99985
10 to 5 -> 0.9992
20 to 10 0.99766
30 to 15 0.99752
40 to 20 1.0009
50 to 25 1.0079
60 to 30 1.0172
70 to 35 1.0275
80 to 40 1.0387
90 to 45 1.0519
96 to 48 1.0626
100 to 50 1.0731
Also here is expansion at low abv... Very strange...
2%abv diluted to 1% -> 0.99996
4% to 2% -> 0.99985
10 to 5 -> 0.9992
20 to 10 0.99766
30 to 15 0.99752
40 to 20 1.0009
50 to 25 1.0079
60 to 30 1.0172
70 to 35 1.0275
80 to 40 1.0387
90 to 45 1.0519
96 to 48 1.0626
100 to 50 1.0731
Also here is expansion at low abv... Very strange...
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
the volume anomality is strongest in the 50-80%ABV range, and diminishes when appeoaching 0 or 100%ABV. so if you're diluting 60%ABV down to 30%ABV, you are going from fairly compressed liquid to one with a lesser anomality, which means you need less water than one would expect. it's not an expansion relative to the pure substances, but is an expansion relative to the compressed 60%ABV. that's the explanation that comes to my mind.der wo wrote: What??? Negative contraction? Expansion? Sounds impossible for me.
[...]
Also here is expansion at low abv... Very strange...
huh, the data on diluting low ABV from that sheet simply does not agree with the data that i ended up using. the sheet states that contraction does not occur at all in low ABV, which is why i'm more inclined to believe the data from Dortmund Data Base. i had tried to dig up the paper given as source for their data, but to no availder wo wrote: Perhaps this is interesting:
http://alcbevtesting.com/wp-content/upl ... nTable.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
A huge expansion from 30 -> 15%: 96.7!!! But nothing at 40 -> 20% or 20 -> 10%...
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
To dilute one unit of 20%ABV to 10%ABV,add 0.9980 units of water.
1 unit + 0.9980 units result in 2 units. That's expansion.
Why 2 units? Simply because this is how %abv is defined. When you have 1 unit 20%abv and fill it up to 2 units, you have 2 units 10%abv.
If you need more than 1 unit water for doing this, it's contraction. If you need less, it's expansion.
1 unit + 0.9980 units result in 2 units. That's expansion.
Why 2 units? Simply because this is how %abv is defined. When you have 1 unit 20%abv and fill it up to 2 units, you have 2 units 10%abv.
If you need more than 1 unit water for doing this, it's contraction. If you need less, it's expansion.
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
yes, it is indeed expansion. but it's a matter of what you compare it to. when diluting 20% to 10%, the resulting liquid will be more volume that expected, but only because 20% has a whole lot less volume than expected when looking at the components individually, while 10% has only somewhat less volume than the sum of its components.der wo wrote: 1 unit + 0.9980 units result in 2 units. That's expansion.
Why 2 units? Simply because this is how %abv is defined. When you have 1 unit 20%abv and fill it up to 2 units, you have 2 units 10%abv.
If you need more than 1 unit water for doing this, it's contraction. If you need less, it's expansion.
what i'm trying to say is: the surprising effect of expansion stems from comparing mixtures with different levels of compression anomalities (abnormal in respect to the volume of the pure substances, that is). it seems the usual lingo is to always use the pure substances as reference points. expansion happens, but only if you start with a mixed liquid.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Commercial distillers by law have to use weight to dilute, I guess ethanol is lighter than water. Even that they say has a slight margin or error. I use dilution tables from some site (brewers friend I think) I found which just goes by volume. Except i have found that alcohol does contract alot so I always go a bit over than have to worry about it under. I will find the weight calculator or tables and post that. Mostly it's just caveman science I use and ad water and keep double checking with the hydrometer till I'm happy. Except the hydrometer isn't accurate unless you put temperature into the equation so there is a margin for error there. I did see an electronic proof reader at a distillery which they said also has a margin of error and isnt legal for excise records.
long live Oldsmobile Aleros
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
When diluting 20 to 10%, the resulting volume will be exactly twice. This is how abv is defined. In 1 volume 20%abv you have 0.2 volumes pure ethanol. In 2 units 10%abv you also have 0.2 volumes pure ethanol.
But yes, I begin to have an idea, where perhaps my mistake is:
Compression is zero at 0% and 100%abv of course. From 0 to X% the compression rises. Also from 100% down to X% the compression rises. Compression means that if you could seperate the ethanol from the water, the sum of both volumes would be greater than the volume of the mixture. And X% is the point where the sum of both separated volumes and the volume of the mixture show the greatest difference.
So when I am below X% and dilute further, I get expansion. (Or when I am above X% and add alcohol)
Do you know what value the X is?
Next question is, why is my calculation with abw wrong?
But yes, I begin to have an idea, where perhaps my mistake is:
Compression is zero at 0% and 100%abv of course. From 0 to X% the compression rises. Also from 100% down to X% the compression rises. Compression means that if you could seperate the ethanol from the water, the sum of both volumes would be greater than the volume of the mixture. And X% is the point where the sum of both separated volumes and the volume of the mixture show the greatest difference.
So when I am below X% and dilute further, I get expansion. (Or when I am above X% and add alcohol)
Do you know what value the X is?
Next question is, why is my calculation with abw wrong?
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
I've plotted the volume of a mixture relative to the sum of the components' volumina, as a function of abv. I'm using the Dortmund Data Base data.der wo wrote: So when I am below X% and dilute further, I get expansion. (Or when I am above X% and add alcohol)
Do you know what value the X is?
Can't see anything wrong with the calculation, but i'm surprised that 10%abv is 8%abw while 20%abv is more than double the %abw. That would mean the alcohol and water don't compress the same amount.der wo wrote: Next question is, why is my calculation with abw wrong?
Also, the abw conversion doesn't agree with the volume chart above. 20%abv should be more compressed than 10%abv, per molecule of ethanol you need many more ("more" compared to what you expect when mixing pure substances, where you'd assume the volumina add up) molecules water in a mixture of 20%abv, and only a little more for 10%abv. So per mass unit alcohol, the should be well over the expected mass of water in 20abv%, and only a little over the expected mass in 10%abv, so you would need to add less water than expected, not more!
Another way to look at it, is to say the liquid will expand when diluting 20%abv to 10%abv, so you'll need less water.
Something else:
According to the graph, significant expansion should take place when diluting from 50%abv to 25%abv, but my text output says to pretty much add the same amount of water, which doesn't make sense. I think there's still something wrong with my code
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- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
All calcs say there is contraction from 50 to 25%. So perhaps there is a mistake before you made this graph? Perhaps something with calculating mol-numbers into abv-numbers?
mol should be easy to calculate into abw. But into abv?
Did you count in the temperature and pressure of the data?
mol should be easy to calculate into abw. But into abv?
Did you count in the temperature and pressure of the data?
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Huh, interesting. Might well be that there's a nasty misconception in my head that's telling me it should expand during dilution.der wo wrote:All calcs say there is contraction from 50 to 25%.
Could be, i'm looking into my conversions, testing them and simplifying where possible. At least one graph i get looks a lot like one that's on wikipedia made from the same data, so it seems the interpolation works fine. Don't yet know whether there's a bug at all or i'm just confused about the expansionder wo wrote: So perhaps there is a mistake before you made this graph? Perhaps something with calculating mol-numbers into abv-numbers?
Here's my graph that should be the same as the one on wikipedia. "X"es mark given data points, the curve is how i interpolate:
The data that my entire calculation hinges on, is for 25°C (as are therefor my results), and without a pressure statement, so i'm assuming it's for atmospheric pressure.der wo wrote: Did you count in the temperature and pressure of the data?
Simply because i made it, have another graph, that shows the volumes of pure water and pure alc to get to a unit volume of mixture. Difficult to see the contraction here, it shows how subtle of an effect it is: For anyone wanting to have a look at the code, i've restructured and simplified it, so i'll post the current state.
READ MORE:
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
A 20%abv solution is contracted a bit. Now we add water. The water is uncontracted of course.
By adding the water the 20% solution gets expanded and the added water gets contracted. Which effect is stronger?
By adding the water the 20% solution gets expanded and the added water gets contracted. Which effect is stronger?
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Thank you, that's exactly what i wasn't thinking of. Yes, now it makes perfect sense that contraction can happen when diluting. So it was a fundamental misconception that i had after all, thanks for pointing it out!der wo wrote:A 20%abv solution is contracted a bit. Now we add water. The water is uncontracted of course.
By adding the water the 20% solution gets expanded and the added water gets contracted. Which effect is stronger?
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
- der wo
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Didn't thought it would help much. At least I am very confused.
I tried to find a similar thing like my pdf with the SG-abw-abv, but no chance. I found some abw-abv calculators for brewers. But most of them calculate bullshit when feeding them with high% numbers. For example here:
http://www.beertutor.com/tools/abv_calculator.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
96%abv is 76.8%abw
This calc sounds better:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/alcohol-by-volume" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
96.1%abv = 95.11%abw, my pdf says 94%abw
80.4 = 76.4, my pdf 74
59.8 = 54, my pdf 52
39.6 = 34.09, my pdf 33
19.7 = 16.22, my pdf 16
10 = 8.06, my pdf 8.06
Strong differences. I don't see any method to find out, if the calculator or the pdf is wrong.
I found this in German language:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... ck0105.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
And there are a few interesting links:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... lg_XXX.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... g_XXXI.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The abv-abw data looks like the same like my pdf. The abw-SG data is a bit different, but very similar.
And here a calculator based on those datas:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... 0105a1.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
For me it looks like in those links are all the answers. There are a few calculation examples, which exactly cover our topic.
I tried to find a similar thing like my pdf with the SG-abw-abv, but no chance. I found some abw-abv calculators for brewers. But most of them calculate bullshit when feeding them with high% numbers. For example here:
http://www.beertutor.com/tools/abv_calculator.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
96%abv is 76.8%abw
This calc sounds better:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/alcohol-by-volume" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
96.1%abv = 95.11%abw, my pdf says 94%abw
80.4 = 76.4, my pdf 74
59.8 = 54, my pdf 52
39.6 = 34.09, my pdf 33
19.7 = 16.22, my pdf 16
10 = 8.06, my pdf 8.06
Strong differences. I don't see any method to find out, if the calculator or the pdf is wrong.
I found this in German language:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... ck0105.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
And there are a few interesting links:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... lg_XXX.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... g_XXXI.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The abv-abw data looks like the same like my pdf. The abw-SG data is a bit different, but very similar.
And here a calculator based on those datas:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... 0105a1.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
For me it looks like in those links are all the answers. There are a few calculation examples, which exactly cover our topic.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Running the numbers you used through my calculator, i get abw percentages that are pretty much identical to the ones in your pdf. I did some more testing and error checking on my calculator, and am now convinced that my method and calculations are correct. So the values i get should be as dependable and correct as the original data i derive them from.der wo wrote: This calc sounds better:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/alcohol-by-volume" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
96.1%abv = 95.11%abw, my pdf says 94%abw
80.4 = 76.4, my pdf 74
59.8 = 54, my pdf 52
39.6 = 34.09, my pdf 33
19.7 = 16.22, my pdf 16
10 = 8.06, my pdf 8.06
Strong differences. I don't see any method to find out, if the calculator or the pdf is wrong.
Nice links, thank you. Over the next few days my plan is to compare that data with the one from Dortmund Data Base, and to combine them should they agree, or otherwise provide another calculation based on Österreichisches Arzneibuch. It's a pretty neat pdf by the way, if you're into pharmaceutical products and the standardized processes used in testing them. It can be found online here, but for people not capable of reading german, only some tables might be of value, such as the ones you posted.der wo wrote: And there are a few interesting links:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... lg_XXX.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... g_XXXI.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
I still have to play around with the other, more extensive data set, haven't come around to doing that.
But i have expanded my conversion calculator a fair bit, to a point where it might be of use not just for dilution, but also for unit conversions. It now has a command line interface, have a look at a typical use: The difficult thing is, you need python3 with the scipy addon to run it. I tried compiling the code to a standalone .exe, but that proves to be complicated. Does anyone know if there is a way to get a command line tool to be useful, for example by running it on the server and making it accessible in-browser? The other two options, a) have everyone who wants to use it install 500MB of python, or b) i rewrite the whole damn thing in C, those options both don't look too good to me.
But i have expanded my conversion calculator a fair bit, to a point where it might be of use not just for dilution, but also for unit conversions. It now has a command line interface, have a look at a typical use: The difficult thing is, you need python3 with the scipy addon to run it. I tried compiling the code to a standalone .exe, but that proves to be complicated. Does anyone know if there is a way to get a command line tool to be useful, for example by running it on the server and making it accessible in-browser? The other two options, a) have everyone who wants to use it install 500MB of python, or b) i rewrite the whole damn thing in C, those options both don't look too good to me.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
There is a better calculator now! Using the formula for density of water-ethanol solutions from this pdf, some people over at hobbybrennen.ch and I developed a dilution calculator that accounts for contraction. I wrote it in C++ and made it into a standalone binary file, so there's no need for python any more. Also, there is an online calculator that uses the same data (and hence models contraction), but the text is in German. Quite sure you can figure out how to use it anyways
The standalone binary files are for 64bit only, but there is both a windows and a linux version of it. It is text-based, so there is no fancy graphical user interface, but the command line interface does its job. Using it (on linux, the windows version is the same without color) will look like this: Enjoy!
The standalone binary files are for 64bit only, but there is both a windows and a linux version of it. It is text-based, so there is no fancy graphical user interface, but the command line interface does its job. Using it (on linux, the windows version is the same without color) will look like this: Enjoy!
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
I am writing the Tried And True Recipe Book pdf and appreciate critique!
Re: dilution calculator improvement
This calculator have been really useful!der wo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:55 am Didn't thought it would help much. At least I am very confused.
I tried to find a similar thing like my pdf with the SG-abw-abv, but no chance. I found some abw-abv calculators for brewers. But most of them calculate bullshit when feeding them with high% numbers. For example here:
http://www.beertutor.com/tools/abv_calculator.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
96%abv is 76.8%abw
This calc sounds better:
https://calculatorabv.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
96.1%abv = 95.11%abw, my pdf says 94%abw
80.4 = 76.4, my pdf 74
59.8 = 54, my pdf 52
39.6 = 34.09, my pdf 33
19.7 = 16.22, my pdf 16
10 = 8.06, my pdf 8.06
Strong differences. I don't see any method to find out, if the calculator or the pdf is wrong.
I found this in German language:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... ck0105.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
And there are a few interesting links:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... lg_XXX.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... g_XXXI.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The abv-abw data looks like the same like my pdf. The abw-SG data is a bit different, but very similar.
And here a calculator based on those datas:
http://pxp-wien.pharmxplorer.at/uebunge ... 0105a1.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
For me it looks like in those links are all the answers. There are a few calculation examples, which exactly cover our topic.
But i wonder if i can use these to brew some home made mead?
- still_stirrin
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Re: dilution calculator improvement
Sure....use ‘em if you’ve got ‘em.
Use what ever tools you need to make the mead. But, understand what you’re doing when using such tools. “Alcohol potential” can be estimated using the change in specific gravity from the original must (OG) to the final mead (FG). It is not an actual measurement of the alcohol, but a calculation made from the change in density of the solution as the sugar content is reduced.
But density calculations, if properly measured using accurate tools, will give you a very good estimate of the alcohol content...good enough for the “tax man” to charge you with your share of his duty.
ss
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