Almost EMERGINGcy - COOL my mash??

[distiller_dresden]

So I'm fermenting a rum mash, the yeast has a top end of 75F, I have a heat wrap, no insulation, and it's set at 72F - but not heating currently. The yeast range is 70-75 - White Labs sweet mead yeast.

So the issue currently is the ferment is running hot - currently at 74.1F after 32 hours going - should I start worrying about cooling my mash - and how should I do that? I've already taken the top off partly, it's a big 12 gallon ferment vessel, food-safe plastic, 5.5 gallon mash in there. Recipe in my fruit rum thread here - viewtopic.php?f=11&t=70044&start=30

Any ideas for how to cool things without stirring it and adding oxygen? I don't want to do that. The heat wrap isn't active, it's too warm currently. There's a fan on high on the vessel too, and the top is half off...

[OtisT]

Just my opinion, but I would leave it alone, uninsulated, and I would turn off the fan. The fan is OK if you have a lid on your fermenter and the fan is not blowing away the layer of CO2 gas on top of your ferment.

For me, ferments spike in temp somewhere from 18-24 hours into the ferment then will start a gradual decrease in temp. Sounds like you are past the highs and it should be coming down soon. Leave it as in-insulated as you can while still maintaining the CO2 barrier, and insulate it once the temp is back in your range.

I’m not a yeast expert, and it’s possible those high temps could cause some off flavors. If you really want to, the only way I know to cool off my ferment would be using my wort chiller. If you don't have one yet, it’s a good investment you should get. i mainly use mine to being grains in hot water down to 150 F for the conversion, then again to bring things down to pitch temp.

Good luck.

Otis

[HDNB]

relax. it ain't a swiss watch.

[distiller_dresden]

I put the top all the way back on, fan on though. Temp ranged to 74.3F as of right now. Hoping it doesn't hit over 75 or there, not sure the yeast's tolerance. I know it's not a watch HDNB, I've been doing this for 6.5 months now, but this yeast has a really REALLY narrow range of 5 degrees from 70-75 and it's either dormant low or dead high. I also don't know if 'higher temps' as you mentioned Otis will cause off flavors, I was hoping for some ester development since it's a rum - I used the sweet mead yeast off the recommendation of the Distiller's Guide, it was one of the recommended yeasts/suggested. Not one I'd normally go with for the temp range, but I'm curious since it was in there and want to see what I'll get...

Hopefully the temp won't range high enough to kill the yeast and it'll settle down in a bit; I was going to add some brown sugar and Lyle's Black Treacle tomorrow around noon, after about 2 days in, to bump my final ABV somewhat. Right now what I'm working with sugar wise is .75 hq molasses, .75 bs molasses, a gallon of pineapple juice, and whatever residual sugar may have been present in a gallon of dunder.

I'm at about 9.5% now, what I'd add tomorrow would up me to about 12.5%.

[still_stirrin]

relax. it ain't a swiss watch.

+1.

annnnnnddd....it’s a rum ferment! Those can often run warm, especially when fermented in the tropics, where rum is indigenous to the region.
ss

[distiller_dresden]

Right, I know guys. Is everyone missing that my yeast DIES at over 75, or else I wouldn't be worrying at all? I'm not a noob.

White Labs sweet mead yeast

WLP720
Species : Mead
Fermentation Temp Range (°F) : 70-75
Apparent Attenuation Range (%) : n/a
Flocculation : Low
Alcohol Tolerance : up to 15%
Pitching/Fermentation : A wine yeast strain that is less attenuative than WLP715, leaving some residual sweetness. Slightly fruity

[shadylane]

So the issue currently is the ferment is running hot - currently at 74.1F after 32 hours going - should I start worrying about cooling my mash - and how should I do that?

Have a shot with a water chaser and quit bothering the fermenter

[still_stirrin]

... Is everyone missing that my yeast DIES at over 75, or else I wouldn't be worrying at all?

I'm not a noob.

Have you “ murdered” this yeast before? Did it die at 75.1*F? Boom! I think you’re in a panic for no reason. Let the ferment go...it’ll be fine. You, on the other hand, I’m not so sure.
ss

[distiller_dresden]

Never used this yeast before.

[jon1163]

relax. it ain't a swiss watch.

I second this... but if you want to cool I've heard of people draping wet towels over a fermenter and turning on a fan.

[Truckinbutch]

I panicked a couple of times thinking that my aquarium heaters overheated my washes . Turned out it was just the exothermic reaction of the yeast doing their job . I don't even bother to monitor any more . Set it and forget it until it tastes done .

[fizzix]

if you want to cool I've heard of people draping wet towels over a fermenter and turning on a fan.

Exactly what I was going to recommend.
It's called a 'swamp cooler' and is especially effective if you can set the fermenter, draped with wet towels, in a pan/tub of water. Fan on.

[bronctoad]

relax. it ain't a swiss watch.

I second this... but if you want to cool I've heard of people draping wet towels over a fermenter and turning on a fan.

+1

if you want to cool I've heard of people draping wet towels over a fermenter and turning on a fan.

Exactly what I was going to recommend.
It's called a 'swamp cooler' and is especially effective if you can set the fermenter, draped with wet towels, in a pan/tub of water. Fan on.

+2
lots of beer guys use this trick for small ferments

bronctoad

[distiller_dresden]

Climbed to 74.6 before I went to bed, so I threw a wet but not dripping towel on top of the fermenter and went to bed. This morning we're at 73.4 so feeling out of the danger zone, going to add my ABV booster.

[jon1163]

Climbed to 74.6 before I went to bed, so I threw a wet but not dripping towel on top of the fermenter and went to bed. This morning we're at 73.4 so feeling out of the danger zone, going to add my ABV booster.

Just so you know I think you're overthinking the temperature thing a little bit

[zach]

I recently fermented a lager beer with a yeast with a temperature specification of 48 F to 73 F and an optimal range of 53 f to 59 F. (Saflager S-23)

I was able to keep my 14 gallon well insulated fermenter near the optimal range by placing two 2 liter bottles of ice per day in the fermenter (with a room temperature of 60 to 75 F). This was my first attempt at a lager, and I was a little worried about infecting the beer when changing out the bottles. After 2 weeks of lagering in the keg at 35 F, I've found no off flavors.

With a little trial and error is possible to keep a ferment in the desired range with this method. A few degrees outside the temperature specification for a yeast is unlikely to have a noticeable effect.

[distiller_dresden]

Well see the only info I have is 'fermentation temp rang 70-75' so I am left to accept that means under 70 the yeast is dormant, and over 75 it dies?

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

No, your wrong. That's optimal range. Not terminal. If you're not going to trust us, then there is nothing we can do for you.

This yeast is highly tolerant. Up to 15%. It kills all other yeast in a tank. And your worried about a puny degree or 2?

You asked, we said you're fine, what more would make you feel better?

You know what would happen if you did miracoulsly kill off this yeast at even 80 degrees? You would pitch a handful of bakers and walk away.

There is no problem here.

[distiller_dresden]

I don't not trust you guys! I thought 'fermentation range' meant below the low number it's dormant, and above that it's terminal; I'm not arguing. I just didn't see any other range posted anywhere, and I thought it was weird for this yeast because I've never seen any yeast with a 5 degree temp range, all the other yeasts I've used have 15 degree or more range, so I thought this sweet mead yeast is some kind of special strain. For other strains, like zach said, I've also seen like, "a temperature specification of 48 F to 73 F and an optimal range of 53 f to 59 F. (Saflager S-23)" but not this one.


Anyhow, I appreciate the input I've received, and I didn't think or say anyone was wrong or misleading me.

So future forward, is it safe to assume that most all yeast have a high terminal temperature, like 100F? And that when I see these 'fermentation range' like 52-74 on say an ale yeast, that they will survive well above that, but as Otis said it just creates undesired off flavors? I had been thinking there were lager yeasts I couldn't use at all for anything because I can't even run a ferment at like 62F when they have a peak around 62-64 as highest ferment temp. Well, not until winter rolls around again, anyhow; I'm not using my A/C that hard, no way I want an electric bill like that.

[shadylane]

What you need is a fermenter with a water jacket.
Then you can control the temp easier and more accurately
The jacket also makes an excellent wort chiller

[shadylane]

Well see the only info I have is 'fermentation temp rang 70-75' so I am left to accept that means under 70 the yeast is dormant, and over 75 it dies?

If it's less than 70f then it slows down
If it's hotter than 75f the yeast might start makeing unwanted flavors

[zach]

According to White Labs the 70 to 75 F is the "optimum range" for WLP720. See page 15.

https://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default ... 202018.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

In no way does it state that the yeast will not work outside this range.

[distiller_dresden]

Thanks zach - you know nowhere do they say the dormant or kill range of any of their yeast...

And they say 1118 is a whisky/bourbon yeast; huh. I thought it was a cider/champagne yeast. There is info there some about gluco-amylase which I've read about in a few books although nobody talks much about gluco on here, just alpha and beta for enzymes in AG mashes.

[still_stirrin]

There is info there some about gluco-amylase which I've read about in a few books although nobody talks much about gluco on here, just alpha and beta for enzymes in AG mashes.

Well, that’s not the case at all...if you read in the Yeast & Nutrients forum you’ll find much discussion for the use of gluco-amylase enzymes...it is in fact, one of the key enzymes we use, especially for corn recipes (along with the high temp liquid HTL enzymes). So, if you haven’t read of them here...you simply haven’t read enough.

And to address the temperature ranges of yeast...almost all yeast cells (regardless of strain) will thrive at temperatures around the human body temperature. Period....it’s a fact of nature. Some yeast strains have been mutated and cultured for unique flavor profiles. In so doing, they have a select operational range to enhance those characteristics.

Ale yeasts produce fruity flavors and ferment at warmer temperatures. Usually they ferment quickly and attenuate with medium flocculation. The Belgian ales yeasts are known for this as they give wonderfully estery flavors.

Lager yeasts, on the other hand, ferment slower and much cleaner. They can be anywhere from medium to highly flocculant. Their target ferment temperatures are typically in the mid-40’s to low 50’s*F, but most certainly will ferment at temperatures upward of the 80’s*F. They just ferment faster, producing significantly more esters (which would be out of character for a lager, especially a German style lager).

So, when you’ve panicked about a ferment temperature in the mid-70’s*F for a rum, where esters are your friend, then your “sky is falling” cry shows your lack of experience (with fermentation and that strain of yeast in particular). As said, many highly experienced distillers and beer brewers all told you to “relax”...but you get defensive and paranoid. Fact is, you’ve worried for nothing...your ferment will turn out great, and the warm temperature of the exothermic process is a good indication that the yeast itself is healthy and properly doing its job.

If you’d experienced a temperature crash and the corresponding premature flocculation of the yeast, then that would be a more significant process anomaly requiring your attention.

You’re young and relatively new to the hobby. You don’t have previous beer brewing or wine making experience, so new processes appear as uncharted territory, and a deviation from your paradigm catalyzes panic. Experience will help you settle down and let nature take its course.

Charlie Papazian authored a phrase, “relax, don’t worry, and have a homebrew” for the novice home beer makers. The philosophy was true 30 years ago as it is today.
ss

[distiller_dresden]

"You’re young and relatively new to the hobby. You don’t have previous beer brewing or wine making experience, so new processes appear as uncharted territory, and a deviation from your paradigm catalyzes panic. Experience will help you settle down and let nature take its course."

Thank you, still_stirrin, this was the most reasoned and friendly direct response to my worry I received here. Not saying there weren't some useful suggestions and such, but some folks seemed really quite angry with me. I didn't understand because this strain, I was completely new to it, and every other strain I've worked with listed a MUCH broader range of temperatures and often also suggested a 'preferred' range, but this one I got 5 degrees and that was it. Thanks for the break down.

As for the gluco - I've not done a shoot load of reading everything, but I have read several of the 'enzyme AG' threads and they all talk about alpha and beta high temp from the same place online. I hadn't seen any mention of gluco amylase in those threads, I've read through them a couple or three times, but may have missed it as I am fallible.

One thing is I first read about it in some books I have and they always say it's 'included' in yeasts and I don't have a single yeast it's ever in, but I saw on the White Labs book that it is included in their distiller's yeasts. Of course it looks like you have to buy like 500g upwards of some odd kilograms of that yeast, so... Yeah. I've been doing 'traditional' alpha/beta enzyming with malted barley in my AG mashing/brewing. Is there gluco amylase in there, or is that a component I'm missing out on by doing 'traditional' AG mashing with malted barley? Slightly taking my topic off topic I know.

Thanks for the reasoned response and the summary of thoughts though, the quote I singled out, that is an appreciable estimation of the problem I'm sure. And I'm 6.5 months in, I have no delusion I'm any kind of 'expert', and the problem primarily above all was I have never used this strain before, no experience with it and never seen a strain listing a range of 5 degrees. Had that range said 'ideal' or 'preferred' I'd have had no reason to post in the first...

[shadylane]

Here you go
https://www.google.com/search?rls=en-us ... v9yopHOfEA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[panikry83]

Rum wants a high temp ferment. Most yeast will work up to around 100F or so, just giving different flavor profiles. Don't worry yourself about it.

[Truckinbutch]

dd:
It's opening night jitters . Sort of like first time parenthood . Experience will ease your anxiety . You'll get to the point of 'cook it , ferment it , and when in doubt ; run it .
We all have been there . Many , including me , made similar posts in the beginning . That's why we try to ease your pain on the getgo .

[Truckinbutch]

What you need is a fermenter with a water jacket.
Then you can control the temp easier and more accurately
The jacket also makes an excellent wort chiller

dd ,
Explore how SRD and I use 2 Brute trash cans for such a water bath fermenter regulated with aquarium heaters .