Butter Rum

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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:02 pm

I get it in a potstill
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby hpby98 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:54 pm

Funny story

99.9% sure I did 16 kg *not* 16 lbs in my first batch

Still turned out

Will try again with 16lbs instead - which is close enough to 7 kg

Just throwing that out there
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:49 am

Boy oh boy did you get some serious alky there! lol
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby hpby98 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:51 am

Shine0n wrote:Boy oh boy did you get some serious alky there! lol


60-20% got me about 5 liters, or a gallon

I’m guessing rest didn’t ferment..
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:09 am

That stinks, maybe you'll have better luck with the next ferment :thumbup:
I've botched a few myself but kept on gettin it.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby JohnsMyName » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:27 am

hpby98 wrote:
Shine0n wrote:Boy oh boy did you get some serious alky there! lol


60-20% got me about 5 liters, or a gallon

I’m guessing rest didn’t ferment..


Did you save the dunder? Add it back for sugar reclaiming! :D
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Hoosier Shine9 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:28 am

JohnsMyName wrote:Shine, is it possible for you to get fancy molasses by the gallon and try to see if you get same result?

I can find fancy at restaurant supply locally for $54 for case (4 gallons) and it has a lot more sugar than blackstrap, so no added sugar needed.



John
Shine On gets his Feed Grade from Tractor Supply it is $8.00 a gallon so you can get almost 7 gallons (6.75 to be exact) for the same price as the Fancy.

Also it seems to me that the people that are getting the "best" butter are using the Feed Grade molasses.

*********************new thought*****************

I have been wanting to do a rum for a while.
I think I am going to give this a try as my FIRST rum.
In the past couple weeks I have gotten 3 gallons of Molasses & 16 Pounds of DB Sugar.
The guy behind me at the Grocery store asked me "what you going to make with all that Brown Sugar?" :esurprised: I replied "the women's group is doing some sort of cookie thing, The wife told me to get 16 pounds of Dark Brown Sugar". He said " uh OK". I Paid for it and went on my way. :lolno:

The only thing is I have a 6 plate Flute instead of a pot still. I guess I might be able to help answer the question if it will work with a flute.
I can disable any/all of the plates might only run 2 or 3 plates and see.
But someone posted that they had refluxed theirs and it worked.......will have to see.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby hpby98 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:59 am

JohnsMyName wrote:
hpby98 wrote:
Shine0n wrote:Boy oh boy did you get some serious alky there! lol


60-20% got me about 5 liters, or a gallon

I’m guessing rest didn’t ferment..


Did you save the dunder? Add it back for sugar reclaiming! :D


Dunder is still in the keg as I've been swamped, but yes I plan on adding back 25%!
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 pm

hpby98 - dude, I'd add half as much water as you have dunder there, skip molasses, add maybe 8-10lbs of dark brown sugar, and then pitch a bunch of bakers yeast and re-ferment all that dunder. Also:

-Bring PH up to 5.0 with potassium bicarb or your solution of choice to raise PH/reduce acidity
-Don't oxygenate -- instead add a half-teaspoon of olive oil just before you pitch yeast and barely oxygenate. See below if you don't believe/trust me.
-Ferment at 90F
-Pitch a LOT of yeast (like ShineOn does), and if you hydrate first don't sugar solution it -- just water hydrate and 20 mins later pitch it
-Then butter the shit out of it before distilling.

https://www.winning-homebrew.com/olive-oil-in-beer.html
http://www.kotmf.com/articles/oliveoil.pdf

That study Johnsmyname posted seems to point more to - not that feed molasses or blackstrap or anything about nutrients, though I feel they do have something to do with the butter - let's be clear the butter is diacetyl - it just definitely is. The study points to several things causing diacetyl to rise in a mash:

low nitrogen (dunder, not adding molasses or nutrients -- CHECK)
over pitching yeast (LOT of yeast -- CHECK)
low oxygen/anaerobic environment (olive oil vs oxygenation -- CHECK)
more acidic mash environment (5.0 and starting with lots of dunder -- CHECK)
also mentions dry active yeast produce more diacetyl from pitch than yeast live/from sugar solution/colony (water only hydrate -- CHECK)
high temperature environment (90F ferment -- CHECK)

NOW - maybe stuff - there's stuff in there about amino acids and such, this might be where 'feed or blackstrap' comes in, but it's also where I think a closer reading and someone with more of a scientific background can be of more use for input, because it talks about the life cycle of yeast, cell walls, and the yeast feeding cycle, as well as specific/certain amino acids. This, along with someone above/recently stating specifically they used high quality/baking molasses and got the butter just fine, leads me to suspect that perhaps I was wrong and that while it SEEMS right/suspect that 'dirtier' molasses like feed or blackstrap is more likely to produce the butter, this is a SCIENTIFIC method I'm attempting to engage in. Everything I've stated above, prior to this 'NOW' statement is scientific in nature and based in science, evidence (from the paper) and study. I think what I've listed above is our best shot at repeatable reproduction of the butter process. YMMV, please feel free to chime in, with thought and especially with evidence from tests moving forward using these steps/methods from my hypothesis.

Hoosier - I think you're gonna be golden on a rum with what you've got, SURELY someone can chime in who has a similar setup as to whether or not or how with that setup distillation will go? If you started it then you have a week or so I'd say to figure that out, if not I'd say you'll have a week to figure it out. If you can't -- we talked about this elsewhere -- reproduce the high temp of 90F, at least do everything else you can from that list I gave, I feel REALLY certain that's where the butter/diacetyl is sitting for this process. I think that's where ShineOn is starting to lean as well, from recent dips/comments into his own thread. If we ever want this thread/recipe in the "tried and true" then this needs to be a reproduceable recipe that works every time. Which means we need to find where the science lies!

I think this is the path, this is nearing it. Thanks goes to Johnsmyname for finding and contributing that link to the scholarly article about diacetyl in mash ferments.
High temp, high acid, high pitch, low nitrogen, low oxygen
High TAP, Low NO

I guess we decide next what's 'high pitch' yeast for a say 5 gallon ferment? I normally pitch 1 packet of yeast for 5 gallons. So would 4 packets be high? Red Star has 7g in one packet, would 28g be high pitch, or more -- go nuts maybe?? 42g, or 6 packets into 5 gallons? That's certainly high pitch, and it's cheap, but what point would it be wasteful I wonder? Shit could I pitch 100g into 5 gallons and be able to cook it two days later lmao??
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby The Baker » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:14 pm

If you take a small amount of yeast and pitch it into a suitable medium and let it grow you will end up with a LOT of yeast to do the 'high pitch'.

It's not the amount of yeast you commence with that is important.

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Re: Butter Rum

Postby hpby98 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:12 pm

Hey distiller_dresden - thanks for the info

But I just finished setting up my second batch

30% hot water
30% cold water
30% dunder

2 gallons fancy molasses
14lbs brown sugar

I’ll read thru your post more - no ph measurer yet, but it’s on my todo list

Will leave tonight as I found the yeast last time raised the temperature 5-6 degrees, and my pid overshot and it ended up too hot for a a half day.

Will put heater on tomorrow am to keep it at 90f
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby hpby98 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:15 pm

Also my first batch has been airing out still

Butter smell has gone down a bit, but there’s been butterscotch and caramel develop in the 1l of tails I separated.

Can’t wait to rerun this again :)
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:09 pm

Hey don't worry if it gets over 90, your yeast should/will survive, unless for some reason you're trying to stay within a narrow threshold? And fermentation does raise temps usually the most within the 24-48 hour period post pitching, totally normal, especially in rum ferments which are so 'sugar' heavy. I have my rum ferment right now 'set' at 90 and it peaked around 94 when the ferment was hitting stride, not a problem at all.

In fact, for getting the butter/diacetyl, this is ideal, hot and fast ferment conditions are necessary for getting the yeast to produce diacetyl. You want diacetyl in the wash if you're looking for the butter flavor.

And Baker - that study/paper found that yeast produce more diacetyl when they are pitched from dry active, which is why I think it's most recommended for achieving the most butter to pitch from dry, and if you rehydrate, only do the minimum, just rehydrate for 20 minutes in water, then pitch. Do not, repeat do NOT actually create a sugar/slurry and let the yeast reproduce and create a growth solution. Those yeast will produce much less diacetyl -- less butter in the wash, which is not what we're looking for in this rum. Another way to make more diacetyl is to way overpitch the yeast, dry active yeast.

However, in any other circumstance, yes, a good way to make more yeast without buying more packs.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:46 am

distiller_dresden wrote:And Baker - Another way to make more diacetyl is to way overpitch the yeast, dry active yeast.


Where do you get your information that over pitching creates diacetyl? Please provide link.

The bottom line is that diacetyl is created in every wash, mash, and beer. Everytime. It's a normal process of fermentation. The only thing youy can do is influence the amount that is likely to be created, and stop the yeast from removing it.

When fermentation is in its final stages, a natural part of the process is the yeast start removing all diacetyl as their final act. It's called the diacetyl rest. The quicker you run your wash after it's done, the more diacetyl.

As far creating it. Stressed yeast. Some yeast create more than others, and yet will still create more when stressed. Some ways to 'stress' yeast are by high temps, yes, dry pitching, low nutrients, and underpitching. This is why I want to know where anyone says that over pitching creates diacetyl.

Also, just a quick note on diacetyl pulled from a beer forum...

"People have different levels of tolerance for diacetyl, some easily pick it up making it very unpleasant for them, others like myself only notice it when it's very obvious, and some people never detect it...

Therefore, diacetyl sometimes depending on the person isn't always a problem.

For me personally it smells more like artificial movie theatre popcorn, and can sometimes be very slick on the palate almost like an olive oil finish."

Just thought to keep this in mind, and learn to recognize what it comes across as, from another viewer.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby The Baker » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 am

distiller_dresden wrote:Hey don't worry if it gets over 90, your yeast should/will survive, unless for some reason you're trying to stay within a narrow threshold? And fermentation does raise temps usually the most within the 24-48 hour period post pitching, totally normal, especially in rum ferments which are so 'sugar' heavy. I have my rum ferment right now 'set' at 90 and it peaked around 94 when the ferment was hitting stride, not a problem at all.

In fact, for getting the butter/diacetyl, this is ideal, hot and fast ferment conditions are necessary for getting the yeast to produce diacetyl. You want diacetyl in the wash if you're looking for the butter flavor.

And Baker - that study/paper found that yeast produce more diacetyl when they are pitched from dry active, which is why I think it's most recommended for achieving the most butter to pitch from dry, and if you rehydrate, only do the minimum, just rehydrate for 20 minutes in water, then pitch. Do not, repeat do NOT actually create a sugar/slurry and let the yeast reproduce and create a growth solution. Those yeast will produce much less diacetyl -- less butter in the wash, which is not what we're looking for in this rum. Another way to make more diacetyl is to way overpitch the yeast, dry active yeast.

Okay, not the same thing. G.

However, in any other circumstance, yes, a good way to make more yeast without buying more packs.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:27 am

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:Where do you get your information that over pitching creates diacetyl? Please provide link.

This is why I want to know where anyone says that over pitching creates diacetyl.

Also, just a quick note on diacetyl pulled from a beer forum...

"People have different levels of tolerance for diacetyl, some easily pick it up making it very unpleasant for them, others like myself only notice it when it's very obvious, and some people never detect it...

Therefore, diacetyl sometimes depending on the person isn't always a problem.

For me personally it smells more like artificial movie theatre popcorn, and can sometimes be very slick on the palate almost like an olive oil finish."

Just thought to keep this in mind, and learn to recognize what it comes across as, from another viewer.


On diacetyl, we don't think it's a problem, we are trying to create it on purpose in droves here, for the butter flavor and smooth mouth feel in this rum.

And as for where I found that over-pitching information, it came from this scientific study on diacetyl in mashes and its causes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.84
I had posted this article just one page ago and mentioned it in my large post just above.

From the article:
Verbelen et al. 62 observed over 10‐fold increases in beer diacetyl concentrations when pitching rate was increased several‐fold 62, 63. This can be explained by the fact that more α‐acetolactate was presumably produced and fermentation times were shorter at higher pitching rates, reducing the amount of α‐acetolactate spontaneously decarboxylated to diacetyl outside the cells during active fermentation in the rate‐limiting step of the diacetyl removal pathway, leading to increased post‐fermentation α‐acetolactate and eventually diacetyl concentrations.

Of note to this ^^ it also says this can be an inverse ratio, basically 'scientifically' what you said next, that all that yeast then scrubs the diacetyl; but since we distill it it's not necessarily applicable to us, unless you go an let your wash sit for days after working so hard to 'hack' all this diacetyl into your wash!
I'm not going to begin to pretend I fully understand the acetolactate stuff; I do have a pharma background, but I worked at Lilly on neuro drugs and that doesn't cross over readily to brewing even though one might expect so... There's a LOT of 'brew' and amino acid biology of yeast life cycle stuff in there about how they eat, and how it affects uptake of diacetyl based on various amino acids.

Also, much of it is about lager yeasts, but the basic info is standard, about over-pitching, and acidic or high temp mashes and production of diacetyl, so thus how we are trying to get down to a science this butter process so maybe we can get ShineOn's Butter Rum into Tried and True because it has GOT TO BE tested and repeatable over and over and over, not hit and miss. So we need to know how exactly to create the process. I think that's what's most fascinating about this recipe above most of the others; this is a PROCESS recipe, as opposed to just a FOLLOW recipe, it's more than ingredients. However if we can hack this out and break it down, we'll figure it and get it down to a repeatable process that's reproduceable every time, then we are getting there...

Also from the article, related to what you said -
"It has also been suggested that the flavour threshold of diacetyl varies with taster's geographical background, ethnicity and diet"
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby bluedog » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:50 am

If the butter flavor is coming from diacetyl as some mentioned, and I whole heartedly agree with, you can probably also maximize the butteryness by distilling as close to the end of the ferment as possible. The yeast produces Alpha-acetolactate during the ferment, then absorbs it back post ferment.
Diacetyl being the cause of the butter also explains why raising the temp before distilling works. "At warmer temperatures, the precursor to diacetyl, alpha-acetolactate (AAL), will oxidize quickly into diacetyl in your young beer". Google Diacetyl test, it's something we would do with every batch when I was a brewer.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Celis » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:04 pm

That would explain why I didn't get any butter. I have fermented slowly, at a relatively low temperature, used nutrients and distilled about 1-2 weeks after the ferment was finished.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:15 pm

IDK DD, I get the same result everytime I run this wash.

Zapata used white sugar and followed the rest of the recipe as is and got it, not sure why others haven't but when I do the same thing over and over I still get the same results time and time again.

When the time comes and I meet some fine folks from here I'll share my rum and get some other opinions first hand.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:42 pm

Well yeah, you're doing the same thing that got you butter over and over again. So it makes sense you'd keep getting same results doing the same things! But when people vary from that, like not feed molasses, or not the same volume ferment, or not the same amount of yeast, or other variables, some aren't getting butter.

So we gotta start figuring out somewhere because it's not likely that just that one single and only process and set of ingredients in that combination and levels alone gets butter, that's silly.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby JohnsMyName » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:13 pm

ShineOn, odd question, but your kettle that’s in direct contact with the wash while heating up, is it copper?

Zapata, same question to you?

Others who haven’t gotten it, what about you guys?
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:19 pm

I'm copper tip to tail-

Related - my ferment is just /about/ finished, so I may run the heat up tomorrow night and cook it Sunday, since I can only cook on weekends as my dad's my partner and we always cook together, rather than risk letting it sit days and lose some diacetyl...
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Celis » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:27 am

I have a copper boiler, stainless steel riser and copper condenser. I did not get the butter. I think it is because I let it sit 1-2 weeks after it was done fermenting.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:35 am

DD very true
My first attempt was found in the fermenter which is an opaque brute the rest has been in my ss boiler or my big ss pot.

The there has been different temps in the ferment as well, winter time has Been cooler and summer is obviously hotter and the same results have happened.

As I looked back on the original post in the dark brown and feed molly wash thread, I was unclear if the wash had completely fermented out when the mistake happened. SO there is a good chance it wasn't completely finished when the heatup occurred, since that one all of the other ferments have went dry but they never had the chance of sitting around and start to cleaning itself up tho.
The ferment I have going now has been sitting for 2 weeks and starting to get some haze on the top and I'm thinking it's getting an infection. I'm still out of town for work and will be for the next 2 weeks and it might end up a complete ester bomb before I return. I'll run it when I can but that's the bad thing in my line of work, being gone alot of time expecially the summers. I may add half gal of moll and pitch a bit of yeast once home and try to kickstart it and if it starts I'll give a day or day and a half then heat it up for the butter. Either way it should be a nice rum.

I'm not sure if the copper pot has some effects on it or not. It may/not and I know der wo has done some experimenting with copper in the fermenter so maybe he could elaborate on that aspect for me because I just don't know.

So many variables could be at play here, for those who don't know I'll tell you my set up.
15.5 gal ss keg boiler
15.5 gal ss key thumper (one or two)
2" copper colum from boiler to thumper
2" copper out of thumper reduced to 1" then reduced again to a 5/8" ID 40' worm.

I know everyone has a different setup, not all have the same amount of copper or ss but I think it's more about the ingredients rather than still.

Zapata has a reflux setup and got the butter although he used white sugar so that leads me to the bread yeast and molasses. Shoot, someone else got butter with fancy so that leads back to the yeast and heatup.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby JohnsMyName » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:36 am

I’m very glad to see we’re all approaching this scientifically at least. Lots of ideas and experiments with controls being tossed around, good stuff!

As to the copper, it may add to diacetyl production, but I’m leaning towards the key being that we run the wash quick after completing fermentation so the yeast doesn’t remove it.

Here’s some things I found on copper theory, but again I do not think this is the key.

“Diacetyl is a butter‐tasting vicinal diketone produced as a by‐product of yeast valine metabolism during fermentation. Concentration is dependent on a number of factors including rate of formation of the precursor α‐acetolactate by yeast, spontaneous decarboxylation of this acetohydroxy acid to diacetyl and removal of diacetyl by yeast via the action of various reductase enzymes.”

“The term "decarboxylation" literally means removal of a carboxyl group (-COOH) and its replacement with a hydrogen atom. The term relates the state of the reactant and product. Decarboxylation is one of the oldest known organic reactions, since it often entails simple pyrolysis, and volatile products distilled from the reactor. Heating is required because the reaction is less favorable at low temperatures. Yields are highly sensitive to conditions. In retrosynthesis, decarboxylation reactions can be considered the opposite of homologation reactions, in that the chain length becomes one carbon shorter. Metals, especially copper compounds,[1] are usually required. Such reactions proceed via the intermediacy of metal carboxylate complexes.”

I think that the spontaneous decarboxylation of acetohydroxy acid to diacetyl is happening in the heat up phase just prior to cooking for rum. The above information suggests heat has a role in this as well as the introduction of metal especially copper. This may also be facilitated by the minerals in the molasses. I’m not a chemist and am just regurgitating interesting things found googling it all, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby distiller_dresden » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:33 am

Hoosier Shine9 wrote:I have been wanting to do a rum for a while.
I think I am going to give this a try as my FIRST rum.
In the past couple weeks I have gotten 3 gallons of Molasses & 16 Pounds of DB Sugar.
The guy behind me at the Grocery store asked me "what you going to make with all that Brown Sugar?" :esurprised: I replied "the women's group is doing some sort of cookie thing, The wife told me to get 16 pounds of Dark Brown Sugar". He said " uh OK". I Paid for it and went on my way. :lolno:

The only thing is I have a 6 plate Flute instead of a pot still. I guess I might be able to help answer the question if it will work with a flute.
I can disable any/all of the plates might only run 2 or 3 plates and see.
But someone posted that they had refluxed theirs and it worked.......will have to see.


I just wanted to refresh thoughts to Hoosier because I LOVE where we are goin, but don't want him to get lost in the excitement--

Zapata you have a reflux right, is that a 'flute'?
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Hoosier Shine9 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:22 am

DD
Thanks for "bumping" this again.

I think Zapata has a straight column with a pre-condenser that he is using packing with. But not sure.

If anyone has done the Buttering Or for that matter Rum in a plated column I would appreciate any input from them.

here is a picture of my rig.

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Last edited by Hoosier Shine9 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby hpby98 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:55 am

JohnsMyName wrote:ShineOn, odd question, but your kettle that’s in direct contact with the wash while heating up, is it copper?

Zapata, same question to you?

Others who haven’t gotten it, what about you guys?



As a FYI, I’m all stainless but striped thru bundles of copper as packing

Just throwing that out there
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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Hoosier Shine9 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:18 pm

I went ahead and "pulled the trigger" and started my very first rum.
I decided I was going to follow ShineOn's protocol to the letter (or as close as I could)

5 gallons water 150 to 160F. into that I added:
2 gallons of Feed Grade Molasses (Evolved Habitats from TSC) Even though I had bought 3 gallons
16 pounds (8 bags) Dark Brown Sugar (I used Kroger brand instead of Domino from Wal-Mart :ewink: )
I have the 1/2 cup Fleishman's Bakers yeast ready as I type.

Aerated it till it was FOAMY. water was down to about 140F
Added cold water trying to get down to about 80F but added too much :oops: and was down to about 75F :esurprised: and still needed to add about 6 gallons. about 3 more gallons of 160ishF water up to about 105F. 3 more gallons of cold water now it is about 93F... :( ....
While adding water I was using a jet type stream and TONS of foam. I think I got enough air in it :?
put a top on it. will check it again before going to bed if 85-90F will pitch yeast tonight if not will pitch yeast in the morning.

My plan is to attempt to butter it. I have a 6 plate flute so hoping to be able to answer the question "can it be done in a flute?" as well. with this being my first rum I may screw it all up in the process too. :crazy:

wish me luck...............lol




edit for clarity

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Re: Butter Rum

Postby Shine0n » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:43 pm

I say yes you can, just go down to 2 plates and run as you would normally do, I think anymore that that you'll get more neutral than rum.
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