Failed wash x 2!

[Fierymac]

Hi folks,

Very new to this hobby and so far have only tried one wash with the stuff that came in the bundle with an Airstill, i.e turbo yeast and carbon / turbo clear. I wasn't too happy with the original finished product so only then did I do some digging online and found that the Airstill isn't all it's made out to be by the retailers - no surprises there i suppose. I'm usually more cynical but got excited at the idea of making my own gin!!

So...next up was to try a kale wash to get something more neutral. Used Googes recipe but after 4 weeks nothing was happening. There was a collection of fruit flies in the wash so i assumed they had introduced nasties that killed the wash, so it was poured away. Take 2 was the same again - Googes recipe with 20 litres of water, 5kg of sugar, Allinsons dried active yeast (yellow tin), and an aquarium thermometer at around 23C. Bubbled up nicely for two days, then seemed to stall. Gave it a good stir to aereate which seemed to get it fizzing away again, but after 4 weeks it's still nowhere near alcoholic, reading only 1.018.

I'm kind of lost now and would appreciate any sound advice as to how can rescue this batch, and/or get my subsequent batches off on the right foot to start with.

[fizzix]

What was your original gravity?
Not all washes drop to 1.000 dry, and you may have had more alcohol than you think.

Don't toss it. Run it and find out.

[Fierymac]

Ummm - did i say I was very new to this? I realise now after more reading on the subject that this is a total newbie mistake, but I don't actually know what my initial SG was.

[Fiddleford]

5 kg of sugar in a 20L wash would bring it up significantly did you taste it? sometimes when my washes are questionable I take a cup and drink it, if I feel a little buzz I run it if not then I wait a little longer https://homedistiller.org/sugar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[fizzix]

Relax and have a bourbon.
Run it and let's see what happens, and mark this one up to a learning experience.
A starting gravity will give you a basis on which to start. Then, when your ferment "stalls," you can look for 2 or 3 days of identical final gravities
which will tell you if the ferment is complete. Again, some washes just finish at 1.018 or even higher! Wait till you do a rum and really see how high they finish.

Don't panic, and don't beat yourself up. You just may pull out a good drink from this likely non-failure.

[Fierymac]

Thanks Guys,

I hadn't ever thought of tasting a wash to see if it was boozy or not!

I've taken results every 48 hours for the last week and although v v slow it does still to be dropping so i will indeed have a nice single malt and just let it run to a standstill and run it, see what happens.

Cheers.

[Fiddleford]

Be careful when tasting it, especially if you don't know the actual abv it may knock you on your ass. sometimes the flavoring components will have a little
unfermentable sugars and it will look like its stuck when its really just done fermenting. Is it starting to clear up, does it taste alcoholic, when you get some on your hands does it feel overly sticky? don't be afraid to stick your hand in there, it should be around 12-14% it will kill off the bacteria on your hand, it may have slowed down because the wash is so potent it will kill the yeast. I would say run it when you have the time, before you do I must ask do you have a way to regulate the temperature of the airstill? not to go of topic but that's important if you want a good drink

[Pikey]

..............- Googes recipe with 20 litres of water, 5kg of sugar, Allinsons dried active yeast (yellow tin), and an aquarium thermometer at around 23C. Bubbled up nicely for two days, then seemed to stall. Gave it a good stir to aereate which seemed to get it fizzing away again, but after 4 weeks it's still nowhere near alcoholic, reading only 1.018. ............

Ok I use as a rule of thumb 1 kg per 5 litres so that would be 4 kg in your 20 litres. At 5 kg you've got 1.25 kg per 5 litres. Which may ferment out eventually, but could take several months. Allinsons is bread yeast and is pretty Alc tolerant but not especially so. Again it may ferment it dry or it may not. - That's why I use a nice safeish 1kg / 5 litres.

You did good to aereate it - but really should have done that at the beginnig to help the yeast multiply. However shouldn't be too much problem as you will have used quite a lot of yeast anyhow.

Rescue ? - Easy peasy as long as it has not completely stopped. - just dlute the wash down to 25 litres by adding 5 litres water. - If you need to put some in another container - so be it !

[Edit - 4 weeks using bakers or normal yeast, is not unusual - these "5 day boys" are living in the tropics - or heating their washes as though they were ! or else they are not using much sugar ]

[DuckofDeath]

You also need some nutrients for that yeast. Add some DAP and some olive oil.

[Pikey]

You also need some nutrients for that yeast. Add some DAP and some olive oil.

why the olive oil ?

[Stew8]

I had a 5 kg 25 marmite wash stall at about 1020 from 1080. By adding more marmite (nutrient) it kicked it ha k to life.

[Fierymac]

Is it starting to clear up, does it taste alcoholic, when you get some on your hands does it feel overly sticky? don't be afraid to stick your hand in there, it should be around 12-14% it will kill off the bacteria on your hand, it may have slowed down because the wash is so potent it will kill the yeast. I would say run it when you have the time, before you do I must ask do you have a way to regulate the temperature of the airstill? not to go of topic but that's important if you want a good drink

-- I tried a glass anyway! - It does have alcohol in there but isn't mad. It is quite sticky though, which i'm guessing means there's still a fair amount of sugar in there? It's not very clear either, kind of like a lemon barley water would be the closest description I can think of.

Airstill temperature regulation - nope, not something i've even read about - so any light you can shed on that would be interesting.

Rescue ? - Easy peasy as long as it has not completely stopped. - just dilute the wash down to 25 litres by adding 5 litres water. - If you need to put some in another container - so be it !

[Edit - 4 weeks using bakers or normal yeast, is not unusual - these "5 day boys" are living in the tropics - or heating their washes as though they were ! or else they are not using much sugar ]

If there is some alcohol in there but not a lot - wouldn't diluting it just make that "not a lot" even less? Or is it that you reckon the higher sugar content is making it too concentrated for the yeast to work? I went with 5kg because the recipe says that 5kg should give a quicker fermentation! Oh - and what would be your recommended yeast? I thought the bakers yeast was "standard"?

You also need some nutrients for that yeast. Add some DAP and some olive oil.

Olive oil?? i'm a total newbie but never read about olive oil in a wash. And what's DAP?

Really appreciating all the feedback though folks.

[Fiddleford]

I'm sorry what was you mash made up of?

[googe]

Yeah wrong ratios like others have said. There's been endless questions about it fermenting a long time, 90%of the time it's from not following recipes. You don't need to drink washes, just stick ya finger in and suck it, should taste dry like a dry wine. Ive done what pikey said a few times with different washes, works good. I'm curious where you read about 5kg giving a quicker ferment, could you point it out, if it's there and wrong, I'll edit it with the magic buttons good luck hope it turns out ok.

[DuckofDeath]

https://www.whitelabs.com/news/olive-oi ... experiment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Olive oil has all of the chemicals needed for yeast reproduction.

DAP is Diammonium Phosphate a yeastl nutrient.

[Fierymac]

Right okay - Think i might need to slink off quietly after this one!

1st mistake. I checked my original recipe - it was someone else's modification of Googe's recipe, not the Googe himself.
2nd mistake. 4kg or 5kg of sugar was based on a 25 litre wash not 20 litre
3rd mistake. Also - it was supposed to be that 4kg was quicker - 5kg was longer but stronger.
So basically as suggested by one of you good people, all of this mess up has just been because I didn't read things properly in the first place. In my defence, it's maybe a case of trying to figure out the best recipe as a newbie with too much info and too many slight variations as people develop what works best for them.

So I reckon the rescue suggestion of diluting it is probably the best way to go, but should i also give it a good stir, or maybe add some more yeast to kick start it into life, or will the dilution do the job for me?

[still_stirrin]

Ummm - did i say I was very new to this? I realise now after more reading on the subject that this is a total newbie mistake, but I don't actually know what my initial SG was.

So, from the parent site on the calculator pages for a sugar wash:

--> 5 kg sugar into 20 liters of water (disregarding the kale) would give you about 23 liters of a sugar wash at OG 1.083 with a 12.7%ABV potential, assuming it fermented completely (to FG 1.000).

Since you've measured the SG 1.018, your ferment is approximately 8.45%ABV potential.....(OG - FG) x 130 = 8.45%.

Not bad...considering the experience. It is "runnable", so give it a go if you can't get the ferment restarted.
ss

[still_stirrin]

So I reckon the rescue suggestion of diluting it is probably the best way to go, but should i also give it a good stir, or maybe add some more yeast to kick start it into life, or will the dilution do the job for me?

I would guess that the reason for the stall is pH. Stirring it up won't help that. And adding more yeast probably won't either.

Get some calcium carbonate (pickling lime) at the grocery store (in the canning section). Take a tablespoon and add it to a 1/4 cup of warm water and stir it good. It won't dissolve very well, but it'll at least hydrate. Then, gently stir that into the ferment. You don't want this done vigorously, as you DON'T want to reintroduce oxygen at this point in the process.

If you were to add more yeast, rehydrate the dry yeast in a 1/4 cup of warm water (body temperature at 95*-100*F only). Smell the cup...does it smell "bready"? If the yeast is viable, it should smell fresh, like bread...not dry like cardboard.

I don't believe diluting would be beneficial with this ferment since it really wasn't exceptionally high...you weren't in the 18-20%ABV potential. That would kill yeast because of the excessive sugar content puts too much osmotic pressure on the yeast cell walls and they will literally explode/implode.
ss

[rubelstrudel]

I second still_s on this. Probably acidity to high (pH to low). Calcium carbonate is the solution to this. I have successfully restarted stalled washes by adding calcium carbonate and add some fresh yeast.

[Saltbush Bill]

So...next up was to try a kale wash to get something more neutral. Used Googes recipe but after 4 weeks nothing was happening.

and an aquarium thermometer at around 23C.

A bit more heat could help, 30c wouldn't hurt at all.

ou also need some nutrients for that yeast.

Goo's wash uses the kale for nutrients, why would you need to add extra? Ive made a fair bit of this now and never its never needed extra Nutrients.

why the olive oil ?

Yes why ?

[Yummyrum]

I would say run it when you have the time, before you do I must ask do you have a way to regulate the temperature of the airstill?

Airstill temperature regulation - nope, not something i've even read about - so any light you can shed on that would be interesting.

.

Fiddleford ,
Please don't confuse newbies by telling them they have to regulate Temperature.....Friggin hell , otherwise we'll spend another dozen pages explaining why you can't
If you must say something like this please say power input not Temperature ....they are two completely different things .

an airstill has a small boiler just over 2 Liters ( under half a gallon) and runs on about 350 Watts IIRC . It uses a Fan in the top to draw air past a tiny copper condenser coil . . There is nothing to adjust or regulate ..... just plugs into the wall and sits on the bench dribbling out alcohol ....basically all day .

And herein lies the biggest problem with an Airstill .They are really slow and you have to sit and watch it all day to swap jars for very little returns .

Anyway Back on Topic .

Googes recipe with 20 litres of water, 5kg of sugar, Allinsons dried active yeast (yellow tin), and an aquarium thermometer at around 23C.

Fierymac, did you actually put any Kale in the wash ?

EDIT : posted same time as SBB

[Fiddleford]

I would say run it when you have the time, before you do I must ask do you have a way to regulate the temperature of the airstill?

Fiddleford ,
Please don't confuse newbies by telling them they have to regulate Temperature.....Friggin hell , otherwise we'll spend another dozen pages explaining why you can't

Sorry I should have caught that, in my experience with airstill's they have to high a power output and I've had steam pissing out of them. I used one for a few years of my distilling up until just a week ago.

[Pikey]

Fierymac - 4kg of sugar IN 20 litres of total wash will ferment out to dryness. 5 kg in 20 litres probably won't quite and if it does, it will take MUCH longer (proably months). You won't get very much product from each run of an airstill anyway, so whilst you probably could just run it now, every 1% extra starting abv will get you noticeably more product out. I'd ferment it to dryness, then ALL your sugar will be converted and you will know it. That will be SG between 990 and 1.000. Then TASTE your wash (dippy finger) so you will KNOW what a finished wash tastes like (Bitterness wise)

4 Kg IN a 25 litre wash will finish sooner than 5 kg because the same amount of yeast will eat 4 kg quicker than 5 kg - simple as - but you will only get 80% of the product you would get with 5 kg.

Dilute it to 25 litres and give it a stir to wake the yeast cake up perhaps ? - Raise the temp if you can up to 30 ish will make bread yeast go significantly faster (I had one this summer which went right up to 40 C) and finish sooner. You've already got some alc in there so yes it is already working as it is - so nutrient is not likely to be your issue as the yeast is already proven to be working.

If you WANT to raise the PH by adding some calcium carbonate - that won't do any harm although several of us don't ever bother to even check the PH and I've never had a failed wine in 50 years for lack of it.

The real "Rule of thumb" I used to use for winemaking is this :
2 1/4 lb in 1 imp gallon = dryness
2 1/2 lb in 1 imp gallon = medium wine
3 lb in 1 imp gallon = sweet wine. (but takes forever to clear)

So 2.2 lb (1kg) in 5 litres is a little less than the maximum for a dry wine (1 Imperial gallon = 4.55 litres) - I use my 1 litre rule because the last little bit of alcohol takes a long time to ferment and so 1 kg to 5 litres gets just about as much strength as we can reasonably expect from "common yeasts" without dragging the ferment out too long.

When you get more experience you can adapt to different yeasts and strengths of wash - but for now - just believe me !

The airstill is just about the only still you can leave to run itself, coming back to see how it is going every hour or so - and some of our more enterprising people do a run to get "Low wines" then a second "Spirit run" to get the abv up. (The makers do this by supplying that "Turbo yeast" stuff and high sugar, which most of us really find a poor and very expensive way forward).

We had such a thread recently so if one of the others could link to it (I cant remember the title) that may help you in this area.

[Manc]

Hi Pikey
Is this the one you was talking about?

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=71009&start=0

Lee

[Pikey]

Hi Pikey
Is this the one you was talking about?

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=71009&start=0

Lee

Yes I think so LEE - Thanks mate !

[rubelstrudel]

Pikey-sama

All due respect to your experience, but with pH management with calcium carbonate I've managed to ferment 5kg sugar in 20l of water completely dry in as little as 4 -5 days. This I do with normal bread yeast and some nutrients. The major factor of slowing fermentayion is increased acidity in the wash, and by dumping enough calcium carbonate in the wash to counteract this acidification the yeast never come out of the storm fermentation phase and bubbles like mad until dry.

[Pikey]

Pikey-sama

All due respect to your experience, but with pH management with calcium carbonate I've managed to ferment 5kg sugar in 20l of water completely dry in as little as 4 -5 days. This I do with normal bread yeast and some nutrients. The major factor of slowing fermentayion is increased acidity in the wash, and by dumping enough calcium carbonate in the wash to counteract this acidification the yeast never come out of the storm fermentation phase and bubbles like mad until dry.

Ok - So 5 kg sugar ? Added to 20 litres of water ? = 23 litres total ?
or 5 kg sugar - in 20 litres total volume ? = 20 litres total ? That was what I was referring to.

Perhaps you'd like to let us know what nutrients and what temperature and how much yeast ?

Sounds impressive tho'

[shadylane]

Hells fire, it's difficult to kill yeast
For a successful sugar wash

A starting gravity of no more than 1.07 - 1.08
Boiled yeast for nutrients
Crushed oyster shells with coral for more nutrients and pH control.
Ferment at the yeasts favorite temp until done.

[Fierymac]

Update: Yes i did remember to put kale in there, so that was one recipe mistake that i managed to avoid at least!

I've had a hectic couple of days so finally got around to catching up with everyone's advice - and I cant say it often enough how much I appreciate everyone's time and energy in replying.

I've decided to add an extra 5 litres of water, given it a good stir, and upped the heater to 30 C. I considered the calcium carbonate, but decided against it pretty much because I was being lazy and saved a trip to try and find some, and also because I want to keep things as simple as possible. There were differing opinions on that so I reckoned i'd leave it out this time around at least.

Many thanks again, and i'll keep you all updated on progress

[rubelstrudel]

Ok - So 5 kg sugar ? Added to 20 litres of water ? = 23 litres total ?
or 5 kg sugar - in 20 litres total volume ? = 20 litres total ? That was what I was referring to.

Perhaps you'd like to let us know what nutrients and what temperature and how much yeast ?

Sounds impressive tho'

Sure.
It was 5kg sugar add water to 23l. 4-5 large spoonfuls of calcium carbonate and half a teaspoon of nutrients I bought at the brewshop. White labs yeast nutrient wln1000. Mostly DAP and a few vitamins. 100g of fresh bakers yeast dissolved in 35c water.

If I see the PH dropping I add more CC.

The yeast is a local brand of moist, fresh 50g cubes. Temp around 27c.