SPP Packing

[sergiolis]

Thanks rgreen2002, I had seen the website some time ago too...
I think he is located in Vietnam
I just ordered some spool tubes: one 3"x36"(column), one 3"x6"(slanted plates) and one 3"x12"(Reflux condenser) from China
they have the best prices for SS

As is mentioned above in this thread there is at least one supplier of SPP in Polland and for us is the nearest one. But so far he is not answering me
Let's see, but looks like my plan is on progress

[sergiolis]

Hi again Odin & Co. ,
As I only need a small amount of copper SPP catalyst I will try to make it myself.
Wich wire diameter do you recommend for a 3" column?
and what column height should be filled with copper SPP?

[sergiolis]

I finished my 3" Boka with a reflux return... and I did my first Feints Run with it.
As it is a SS column I put 8 copper scrubbers at the bottom. It is a temporary solution because I would like to make some copper SPP or maybe just some copper rings with 10 or 12mm tube.
To remark a difference between 2" and 3" column I could say that I was not able to see the vapour-liquid bubbles at the sight glass even pushing the power till 4800W.
I couldn't push more because the Reflux condenser started to make a terrible noise. I think the limit it can hold is about 4200W.
The column was filled with 39" of SPP. It was my first run with such a big column and I think I didn't squeeze all its juice. When I was on hearts I tried to increase the take-off until 60ml/min but I noticed an increase of a tenth in temperature. Well it was a nasty Feints run so maybe it was more delicate to balance it properly...
If someone of you is using a 3" with SPP I would like to know some figures about your equilibrium time, power, take-off ratio, etc....
It would help me a lot to set the different parameters.....
Thanks a lot in advance

[DAD300]

seriolis,

3" SS column 30" with ~26" of SPP or keg. 13 gallons of 8-10% abv charge in still. 45-50 min to first drop with 5,000watts. Down to 3,500watts, 10 min or less 100% reflux. A liter approx every 15 min for first four and I increase reflux for last liter at about half that rate.

[sergiolis]

Hi DAD300, thanks a lot for the data.
It is my 3rd run with this column and looks like I begin to know her.
I had similar numbers in my 3rd run but I charge the keg with stripping runs.
About an hour to boiling point at 5500W, the rest at about 3600W. 15 min. equilibrium, foreshots at 6 drops/second, heads at 30ml/min, hearts at 70ml/min at 3600W.
I tried to be cautious because I'm still testing her but I'm sure I could go faster.
I find interesting that you don't go slower at fores and heads and you only decrease the take-off near tails.
Eventually I will try your approach.
Compared to a 2" I could notice heads and tails more compressed...
Thanks a lot DAD

[sergiolis]

Hello guys,
Nobody speaks about SPP anymore...
Well, I'm building a 4" Boka and I would like to fill it with oversized SPP
Do you know if could I find it? I was searching a lot but it wasn't successful.
If I can't buy it i will try to build it.
I'm thinking on simple spiral (coil) made with 0.8mm stainless steel wire, 8mm height, 8mm width.
No idea how much I need for a 120cm column height but I could start with 1 kg of this:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/316-mat ... 3c00VcKusb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Bushman]

You might fire Odin a PM, he used to make and sell SPP separately with his IStill company. Believe he no longer does that but he did some testing on size of SPP per diameter of column and probably give you some valuable info.

[sergiolis]

That's a great idea! Thanks Bushman

[richard1]

Hello guys,
Nobody speaks about SPP anymore...
Well, I'm building a 4" Boka and I would like to fill it with oversized SPP
Do you know if could I find it? I was searching a lot but it wasn't successful.
If I can't buy it i will try to build it.

You can try contact me in approx. +3 months. I am manufacturing 10mm Diam x 10mm SS helical packing and for sure am going to have an amount left over for resale.

[Odin]

That's a great idea. Sergiolis, my problem is that we can hardly make enough to meet demands for our own stills ...

Regards, Odin.

[sergiolis]

Thank you guys!!
There is a big science in SPP manufacturing, size, shape, etched, not etched, etc... so I'm a bit lost
3 different manufacturers told me that to get a cleaner neutral (purity/efficiency) is better small SPP. One of them told me that they are using small SPP even in 6 or 9m column height and the SPP doesn't get squashed.
I've been working with small SPP and 3" column and works nicely. Maybe an easy solution working with bigger columns is just to split the column putting a grid between both parts.... The thing is I don't really know... If you could contribute with some details I would appreciate it very much.
Cheers!

[Manc]

Hi Sergiolis

I'm not sure if this helps but I've been using small spp in a 2inch coloum and found that I can get azeo with as little as 40cm of 3.5mm X 3.5mm made of .24 mm wire with 3 cm of copper wire mesh as a stopper at the bottom.

Regards
Lee

[sergiolis]

Thank you Manc... I've been using SPP in 2" and 3"... but now my doubts are about using either small or big SPP in 4".

[Manc]

Hi sergiolis

No worries while I've got your attention can I please ask I've just purchased some 3inch pipe to use with the spp did you find the take off rate increased sufficiently and will I need the same depth or increase it.

4 inch that's some serious size I was surprised how much bigger the 3 inch is wish you all the best with your endeavours

Lee

[sergiolis]

Hi Manc,
About 102cm height of my 3" column is filled with SPP... It depends on what are you looking for.... My goal is to get a clean neutral so I'm looking for efficiency and purity. If you increase your packing height you can increase your power, consequently you increase your reflux ratio and you can increase your take-off speed without decreasing purity...everything is related. More height = more power = more take-off speed.. Of course there are some limits... but about 100 or 120cm works fine.. I can collect hearts at about 80ml/min and that's a nice rythm...

[Manc]

Hi Sergiolis

Wow that's some take off rate.

Thanks for the great information it's very helpful it's seems I've been going about it all the wrong way round I'll be changing my approach from now on

Thanks

Lee

[drinkingdog]

Thank you Manc... I've been using SPP in 2" and 3"... but now my doubts are about using either small or big SPP in 4".

I was wondering what you meant by having doubts using SPP in a 4 inch.

[sergiolis]

Hi drinkingdog,
What I mean is doubts about the size of SPP in a 4" column... but looks like with small SPP you get more purity/efficiency (according to some manufacturers), so finally that's my choice.

[DAD300]

If you can...size the SPP to the column dia. This tunes the HETP for best throughput.

Same rules for any column dia, SPP dia should 1/10th the dia of the column and length should be 1.5x dia.
Ex. for a 4" (100mm) column SPP is 10mm dia and 15mm length

That said, use what you got, can get or can make.

My 4" dia column is 36" tall. with 30" of 8mm x 12mm SPP. It has a SS Scrubbie bottom and top.
I start with a 30%abv boiler charge. It floods the top at about 7,000watts. Runs great at about 5,500watts. Starts off at four gallons an hour of azeo and drops to three to poop before tails. When making vodka, when I can['t maintain azeo, I'm done.

I can make tails come over at 92%. They taste like leather.

[Manc]

Hi

Thanks everyone for the advice in this thread and all the others it really does help and stops me asking stupid questions but I now have one so I apologize in advance if it is but I can't find an answer.

Is there any benefit to putting a stopper at the top of the spp I've been running mine with just copper mesh as a bottom stop but would it make any difference if I also put in a top stop.

I am currently running 3.5mm triangle shape spp in a 3" coloum I have 2 litres which gives me an height of about 600mm ( I am looking at getting more to increase my height and hopefully a larger size but the biggest I can find is 5.5 mm again triangle size ) This is allowing me to run at 3litre an hour from 40%abv low wines which I can live with.

My reasoning for not putting in a top stop was that as the spp filled with condensate it would have more room to expand and slightly increase the coloum height although I am aware this maybe flawed.

I have held off buying more spp at the moment because I'm not sure if to just buy an extra 2 litres of the larger size and just mix with what I have now or buy all larger size.

All advice is appreciated thanks in advance

Lee

[richard1]

If you can...size the SPP to the column dia. This tunes the HETP for best throughput.

Same rules for any column dia, SPP dia should 1/10th the dia of the column and length should be 1.5x dia.
Ex. for a 4" (100mm) column SPP is 10mm dia and 15mm length

And wire diameter thoughts ??

[DAD300]

.025 - .035 of an inch or ~0.7mm

[sergiolis]

Hi Manc,
Top stoppers are used because if you increase too much your power and your liquid bubbles exceed spp level at the top, build pressure might cause jumping SPP coils.
Well it's a nice show but it is also disturbing... so yes, I would use it.
If you can buy 5.5mm SPP and you increase your height you will notice a great difference... even if you mix both sizes...

Hi DAD,
I appreciate very much your numbers... They are very helpful to get some idea about what I will see.
I already bought Small SPP so I will try it, but I think it should work fine.
Do you start with 30% abv boiler charge because the performance is improved or is just what you usually get?
5.500W is a good power. I build a triple coil condenser with 8mm OD copper, about 25cm height...but i didn't try it yet... I hope that it will work properly...
Cheers!

[Manc]

Thanks sergiolis

Lee

[sergiolis]

Hi guys!
I'm trying to get the original source about first tests with SPP in 1958... I'm waiting for a interlibrary loan. As soon as i have it I will upload it here.
Where did you find this 1:10 ratio between SPP size and Column size? Is it from a reliable source?

[sergiolis]

For instance, in this article at the bottom in the conclusion it is said just the opposite..

raschig test comparison Darakchiev_et_al-2008-Chemical_Engineering_%26_Technology.pdf

(677.94 KiB) Downloaded 231 times

well,sorry, not exactly the opposite but they say the best is the smallest dimension of raschig packing...
In this case for a 21.3 cm diameter column, 1.27 cm packing size

[sergiolis]

Hi guys,
one more interesting article on SPP... I loved the copper wire around the coil condenser. Again they are using small SPP for big columns... but who knows...
I tried to tranlate it to english using google translator and some corrections but could be better..

SPP rusky article.pdf

(477.42 KiB) Downloaded 322 times

[DAD300]

Look for the Hanbook of Laboratory Distillation by Erich Krell

There are free copies out there. It has specs for size and shapes.

I think you are confusing a few points or issues here.

The smallest SPP gives the best HETP, but production (throughput) it becomes painfully slow .

If you're making tritium in a 25mm x 250mm column, tiny spp is best. But if you're making beverages in a 100mm x 1000mm column the 1/10th ratio gets you two gallons an hour. So, it becomes a compromise for practicality.

You have the best anecdotal evidence possible being given to you here on this forum. The 1/10th ratio works! I promise.

[NineInchNails]

Handbook of Laboratory Distillation 2nd ed (revised) - E. Krell (Elsevier, 1982)

[sergiolis]

Thanks for the advice DAD and 9"nails,
I got that book and I'm trying to find Kerenyi's article (original source quoted there)... let's see if I'm lucky.
I absolutely trust you DAD... but it's too late because I've already bought small SPP... I will tell you how it works in a 100mm column.. but I'm sure it will be slower.
Maybe in the future I will try to build bigger SPP with 1/10th ratio
I'm also very curious to know why the standard (the most used) 10mm packing, the big one, it's just an spiral and it's not prismatic...
Wouldn't be more effective with a prismatic form?