Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

These little beasts do all the hard work. Share how to keep 'em happy and working hard.

Moderator: Site Moderator

kindsun
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:48 am

Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by kindsun »

As a homebrewer, I'm very much used to the idea that the yeast is responsible for a huge amount of the final flavor. The same ingredients/mash bill will produce two wildly different beers if you use a Belgian or Saison yeast versus a California Ale, for instance.

From fairly extensive thread reading, there seems to be almost no regard given to the type of yeast used for a recipe (other than "turbo is probably a bad idea"). Is there something about the distilling process that loses most of the yeast-imparted flavors from the fermented mash in favor of the flavor from the base grain(s)?
User avatar
fizzix
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3698
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by fizzix »

It does make a negligible difference from my meager distilling experience, but not nearly as profound as in brewing.
Considering the cost difference of a little bakers yeast compared to a $10 vial that you have to make a starter for,
the flavor difference would have to be more dramatic (for the average mash) than the extra cost and work warrants.
Plus, you know what you're getting with bakers yeast. I'd hate to use a beer yeast and find it turns my beloved bourbon into a fruity, flowery drink
that calls for a little umbrella stuck in it.

Now, some recipes will call for Champagne yeasts, wine yeasts or others at times, so it's not a hard and fast "rule."
As a matter of fact, I'm using champagne yeast (because it's called for) in my latest batches of Deathwish Wheat Germ.

I think you've asked a great question, though, and would like to hear others' opinions.
butterpants
Swill Maker
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:22 pm
Location: CO

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by butterpants »

From the last year messing with Bourbon and UJSSM recipies, I'd disagree and say yeast is uber important and more so how you treat them (stay within accepted nutrient and temperature ranges). What's not as important is being clean with them, unlike brewing.

My rum experience is only halfway done so I can't speak for it yet.

When it comes down to nuts n bolts, follow conventional wisdom and best practices. Use tried and true recipies and strains.
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by greggn »

For new home-distillers, I believe that process control is initially more important than yeast selection. Consistent milling of grains and temperature control of your ferment will have as much, or more, influence over the quality and flavor of your final product.

... and, yes, I suggest you use baker's yeast while developing and refining your workflow.
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by der wo »

Here is a very interesting interview. Two audio files also on yeast for distillers:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68005&p=7511906#p7511906

I use bakers yeast for almost everything. At least at the beginning spending much money on yeast is wasting money.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by jonnys_spirit »

When i do batches I have been doing multiple runs of ferment / strip / spirit. I have started to use different yeast in each ferment for more complex profile. It was also cold in my cellar over the winter so I used some lager yeast. Has turned out well and I’ll do it again.

Cheeds!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The same applies to some degree, different yeasts for different outcomes or products , EC1118 for Neutral and Fruit washes.
Bakers Yeast and things like 493 EDV and similar for Rums. People also have preferences for whiskies, both American and Scottish. If you read enough you will find one thing that is 100% sure.....some people will claim they can tell a huge difference in results , while others say they can tell almost no difference.
User avatar
Birrofilo
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Birrofilo »

I also come from homebrewing.
In the homebrewing world nobody would ever say "I use brewer's yeast".
Brewer's yeast "doesn't exist".
What exist is BE-256, US-05, S-04 (or many others by Fermentis), M15, M31, M41, M47 (or many others by Mangrove Jack's) and other many dozens of strains by different producers.

In the distilling world, people will tell you they use "baker's yeast".
It appears obvious to me that "baker's yeast" doesn't exist, so to speak, as an identifiable product. Certainly dozens of different strains exist, and they will give different results in bread. If you bake your bread at home, you know that each "brand" of baker's yeast has an influence in the taste of your bread. I wouldn't be surprised if "baker's yeast" sold in Italy is made of strains very different from strains which you find as "baker's yeast" in Germany or in the USA. And just like the result of each strain is different, so probably is even more different the result between "baker's yeast" in different countries. Bread is different in different countries, and bread is made by yeast not less than beer.

The strain of what you call "baker's yeast" will be different from the strain somebody else uses and equally call "baker's yeast".

The fact itself that such a very vague notion as "baker's yeast" exist in the distilling world is sufficient proof that the yeast strain is not of paramount importance.

Or maybe it's an explanation of why somebody say they like the result of baker's yeast and somebody say they have no good results with baker's yeast and they prefer another kind of yeast. The apparent incoherence might be due to the fact that they are not talking about the same strain, and it might well be that some strains of "baker's yeast" are not suitable, while others are, so that if you don't have good results with "baker's yeast", maybe you will have with a different strain of "baker's yeast".

Ultimately - even if less important than in brewing - it would be better if instead of "baker's yeast", which IMHO means nothing useful, people would say "I use baker's yeast produced by producer Smith and sold under the brand HappyLoaf". That would make a recipe more reproducible.

The notion of "baker's yeast" should probably be avoided for being too vague.

The species of "baker's yeast" is probably composed of a single strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae only, the "strain" will depend on the culture of each different producer, it's normally "producer-specific", so there is no other sure way to identify a "baker's yeast" than saying exactly which producer, which brand, (like in the beer world).
Actually some "baker's yeast" could contain some different species (the species which are commonly found in sourdough, that kind of yeast is sold as "natural yeast" or similar terms in Italy) and so they could be something VERY different from a product made only of Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

And all those different products are described as "baker's yeast".
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by der wo »

I disagree. If you want to know, which bakers yeast exactly someone uses, you are overthinking IMO. To say "I use bakers yeast" simply says, that the yeast selection plays tastewise a very small role in the overall process of making spirits. So I use the cheapest yeast I can get or simply the yeast from the nearest supermarket, that I have always fresh quality. And although you are right, bakers yeast is not overall in the world the same strain, they are similar: They like warm temperatures, they are reliable under many circumstances and they start to ferment very fast.

All in all the question is where you come from. If you were a brewer before you started distilling, you will always think, yeast selection is very important. Right or wrong. If you started directly with distilling, you will probably concentrate on other aspects.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
Birrofilo
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Birrofilo »

I see your point but I am not convinced that "baker's yeast" is, as you imply, a family giving some predictable and standard result.

I am not convinced not because I tried baker's yeast in fermentation, but because I read, in this forum, contradicting statements regarding results with baker's yeast. For the same recipe, some people say they had good result with baker's yeast, some people say they haven't. I think this happens because they did not use the same yeast.

In brewing nobody will tell that they had a very estery result with US-05 at 18°C, or that they had a very "clean" result with S-04 at 25°C. Temperature and yeast are part of a recipe because they give reproducible results, which is why recipes circulate. Strains are known and their result, given OG and temperature, is very predictable.

So I suspect that people have different results with "baker's yeast" because, in fact, they use "different" baker's yeasts, and possibly even more because they use different fermentation temperatures.

Whisky is made of beer.
The alcohols in beer will be different if fermented by a different strain. A few degrees °C will give a radically different result when using S-04, and the same temperature will give a radically different result when using S-04 or US-05, for instance.
When one distills those beers, the different content in esters and various congeners will be IMHO inevitably reflected in the final result.
But the final result will also depend on various other factors (distillation technique, tastes, etc.).
What I am saying is that each "factor" factors in. Ultimately one distills what is in the fermenter, and what is in the fermenter is very highly dependent from fermentation management (yeast, temperature, oxygenation etc.).

Actually, fermentation temperature is another aspect which is crucial in a recipe.

I am aware that after distillation one ends up with a "subset" of what was in the fermenter, therefore there is no direct correlation between the two.

But I find that, maybe, stressing percentage in the grain list of a recipe, and then having different yeast strains working at different temperatures, might lead to different results, which somehow betrays the "recipe" concept.

If a recipe includes OG, yeast (strain), temperature, it is reproducible.
If a recipe doesn't include those factors, the final result remains unpredictable.

This is not a critique to you personally (you are the single most useful member of this forum to me) but as a general observation that yeast strain and temperature of fermentation ultimately play an important role in the "beer", and I am not convinced they don't play an important role in the distillate of that beer.
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by der wo »

No problem. We have now a few opinions and the OP or other readers can make their own thoughts about this topic.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
badflash
Swill Maker
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by badflash »

In brewing beer the stuff besides alcohol are really important. Each yeast produces a different flavor profile due to the yeast byproducts, and in some cases, the yeast itself. When you distil, most of that gets dumped. IMHO what is more important is how the yeast performs in what ever you are fermenting. Some yeasts like certain things and some yeast run out of gas at low alcohol levels, others keep on going, like Champaign yeast.

The stuff I am fermenting right now tends to be high gravity, so I am using Premiere Cuvee. If my gravity was lower, I would use an ale yeast.
User avatar
Birrofilo
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Birrofilo »

badflash wrote:In brewing beer the stuff besides alcohol are really important. Each yeast produces a different flavor profile due to the yeast byproducts, and in some cases, the yeast itself. When you distil, most of that gets dumped.
It is my understanding that those yeast byproducts in breweing are actually what distillers calls heads and tails. A brewer would say a certain yeast imparts to the beer phenolic notes, pepper, coriander, cloves, or fruity notes, banana, ananas, pear, berries etc.
Those different aromatic profiles correspond to some different alcohol congeners or some different esters. We don't lose those in distilling.

What we lose when we distill beer is the water and the "body", i.e. the undigested sugars (which have not been touched by the yeast, because they did not know what to do with it) and we maintain all the alcohols, in the typical "mix" that that yeast, at that temperature, created.

Basically IMHO we lose what the yeast did not touch and had no influence upon, and we maintain in the distilled product the result of the yeast digestion, in all its different variations of aroma.

There are four "flavour dimensions" in beer: water, hop, grains and alcohol. Yeast is responsible for the "alcohol" dimension of flavour, which is what we distill.

In distillation we don't have the water dimension and we don't have - normally - the hop dimension. We have grains (or other raw material) and alcohols. The grain dimension has IMHO less influence in the final product in distillates than in beer.

Yeast is what mostly determines the "alcohol" dimension in beer and distillates. Different strains will give different profiles.
Recipes stress the grains (or ingredient) dimension without giving importance to the yeast, which is responsible for the "alcohol" dimension, which instead is IMHO the most important.

The radical difference between beer and distillation is that in beer the alcohol dimension (like all others) cannot be modified, it is set in stone, while in distillation we actually "manipulate" it, it's clay that we shape, hence the diminished degree of attention to the yeast, but it's the yeast which makes the clay in the first place.
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by jonnys_spirit »

And we often reserve some backset and further process that with infections and ageing then mix back into a mash and even low wines for further distillation and esterification. Seems to me a very intricate bunch of interdependencies and every element contributes towards the resulting product - perhaps not all equal.

After all, without the yeasties we would be drinking sweet mash water and that’d be the end of it.

Cheers,
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
badflash
Swill Maker
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by badflash »

I think there is more to beer than what you think. The alcohol profile is fixed, but only by the yeast you use. Loads of varieties of yeasts give a huge difference in the mix of alcohols, cogens, esters, etc. but not all of them have boiling points lower than water, so they end up in the backset. Most distillers seem to care little about the heads or the tails, so the yeast they pick doesn't matter much as long as it doesn't quit on them before the sugar is used up.
Birrofilo wrote: It is my understanding that those yeast byproducts in breweing are actually what distillers calls heads and tails. A brewer would say a certain yeast imparts to the beer phenolic notes, pepper, coriander, cloves, or fruity notes, banana, ananas, pear, berries etc.
Those different aromatic profiles correspond to some different alcohol congeners or some different esters. We don't lose those in distilling.

What we lose when we distill beer is the water and the "body", i.e. the undigested sugars (which have not been touched by the yeast, because they did not know what to do with it) and we maintain all the alcohols, in the typical "mix" that that yeast, at that temperature, created.

Basically IMHO we lose what the yeast did not touch and had no influence upon, and we maintain in the distilled product the result of the yeast digestion, in all its different variations of aroma.

There are four "flavour dimensions" in beer: water, hop, grains and alcohol. Yeast is responsible for the "alcohol" dimension of flavour, which is what we distill.

In distillation we don't have the water dimension and we don't have - normally - the hop dimension. We have grains (or other raw material) and alcohols. The grain dimension has IMHO less influence in the final product in distillates than in beer.

Yeast is what mostly determines the "alcohol" dimension in beer and distillates. Different strains will give different profiles.
Recipes stress the grains (or ingredient) dimension without giving importance to the yeast, which is responsible for the "alcohol" dimension, which instead is IMHO the most important.

The radical difference between beer and distillation is that in beer the alcohol dimension (like all others) cannot be modified, it is set in stone, while in distillation we actually "manipulate" it, it's clay that we shape, hence the diminished degree of attention to the yeast, but it's the yeast which makes the clay in the first place.
User avatar
Birrofilo
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Birrofilo »

badflash wrote:I think there is more to beer than what you think. The alcohol profile is fixed, but only by the yeast you use. Loads of varieties of yeasts give a huge difference in the mix of alcohols, cogens, esters, etc. but not all of them have boiling points lower than water, so they end up in the backset. Most distillers seem to care little about the heads or the tails, so the yeast they pick doesn't matter much as long as it doesn't quit on them before the sugar is used up.
I think we think equally but use the words "heads" and "tails" differently. For "heads" and "tails" I don't mean only those parts that are discarded by the distiller, but all the alcohol constituents which are not pure ethanol, i.e. all the alcohol congeners, which are retained by the distiller in order to give the "organolectic profile" to the distillate.
All those congeners come from the "alcohol profile" of the beer and end up constituting the "profile" of the distillate.

Which means that, in my reasoning, the final aromatic distillate (brandy, whisky, rum, grappa etc.) contains, in this sense, heads and tails, although not all heads and all tails which are present in the original matter (wine, beer, sugarcane wash, etc.).

What I mean is that what you get in the distillate you have normally gotten it first in the fermentation.

[I abstract here from more complicated ways of creating congeners, such as using acid backset and acid fermentation in order to create esters which were not present in the basic fermentation, because my point is that "backer's yeast" is probably different strains which impart different alcohol profiles to the product during fermentation]
badflash
Swill Maker
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by badflash »

I think we are talking about the same thing Birrofilo, but different yeasts do give different stuff period, but in distilling a skilled person can make something good out of just about anything. What has always puzzled though, is why if you drink a couple of beers, no hang over, but if you distill the same amount of beer and drink it without dumping the first parts that come out, you do. It seems to me there is other stuff left in the backset that counter acts some of the bad effects.
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by jonnys_spirit »

It’s the yeasties themselves and their dead brethren. When I was a young lad growing up abroad in Deutschland the best Bier for hangover prevention was the one with the stuff still all floaty. Mit Trüb. Vitamin “B as in Bier” mit Trüb. I tested that theory a lot. Der Wo can prolly vouch.

Tchüßi tschau tschau!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by der wo »

I thought always, a beer without trub would be the best against hangover?
The only thing I know it helps is Vitamine I before going to bed.
.
.
.
(I = Ibuprofen)


And of course the "Reparaturseidel". Means translated a repairing small beer. You have to drink it just after waking up...
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
Birrofilo
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Caput mundi

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Birrofilo »

badflash wrote:I think we are talking about the same thing Birrofilo, but different yeasts do give different stuff period, but in distilling a skilled person can make something good out of just about anything. What has always puzzled though, is why if you drink a couple of beers, no hang over, but if you distill the same amount of beer and drink it without dumping the first parts that come out, you do. It seems to me there is other stuff left in the backset that counter acts some of the bad effects.
Yes I agree, it's the "recipe" aspect that IMHO should include the yeast strain to make things more reproducible, but ultimately the distiller "shapes" the final result much and somehow inevitably, so that in distilling a "recipe" is less reproducible than in homebrewing or in cuisine, because individual technique and procedure has a deeper influence in distilling than in cooking or homebrewing.

I suspect the thing the beer has which counteracts the bad effects is "isotonic" water, water plus the right mixture of potassium and magnesium. When we add the little shot of distillate to a dinner, we often don't "dilute" it with the appropriate amount of water to dilute it, in our bodily system, to beer strenght, and in any case, if we do, we use simple water.

It might be that the amount of potassium and magnesium, which every beer contain in large quantity and water does not, helps also under that respect of managing alcohol.

I was always surprised how I can drink more beer than water. Beer simply goes down the throat more easily. Your body tells you "enough water" much before than it tells you "enough beer". I could never drink 1 l water in half an hour. I know I can drink 1 l beer in summer in half an hour during dinner, no problem! (especially if I am back from an hike).

Beer is an isotonic brewage, water is not. An isotonic drink is absorbed by the intestine much faster than a no-isotonic drink. Alcohol is absorbed very fast as well.

Water is needed for the digestion of alcohols.
That probably means that, while drinking beer, we give our liver water which is immediately available.
If we drink spirit and then drink water, the spirit is absorbed much faster than the (non-isotonic) water. So that might have an effect on the digestion of alcohol, the digestion is slower, some alcohol is "parked" in the blood, and we begin saying funny things. :lol:

(Just an hypothesis of mine. The "morning after alcohol", instead, it's scientifical stuff against headache, because headache IIRC is caused, also, by the sudden decrease in alcohol content in the blood, so one must "taper" its descent).
badflash
Swill Maker
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by badflash »

If I drink Everclear, which is supposedly pure ethanol, I never get a hangover.
butterpants
Swill Maker
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:22 pm
Location: CO

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by butterpants »

badflash wrote:If I drink Everclear, which is supposedly pure ethanol, I never get a hangover.
You're not drinking enough of it.
User avatar
Alchemist75
Rumrunner
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:12 pm
Location: New Mexico USA

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Alchemist75 »

butterpants wrote:
badflash wrote:If I drink Everclear, which is supposedly pure ethanol, I never get a hangover.
You're not drinking enough of it.
Ugh, "pure ethanol" is subjective. Everclear is the only booze that consistently makes me vomit no matter how much I dilute it. If I drank enough to get a buzz I will puke later. Ngs my ass. Yuck.
SOLVE ET COAGULA, ET HABEBIS MAGISTERIUM
User avatar
bluedog
Novice
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 1:30 pm

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by bluedog »

If you have the time I'd highly suggest running batches and keeping everything the same to see for yourself. I've been switching up the yeast in a rum recipe and the difference is huge. I've used two different stains of baker's yeast, a distiller's yeast, and about 4 or 5 Belgian ale strains. Even the difference between the Belgian strains is easily noticeable. I'm sure you do lose a lot of the esters and congeners in the heads and tails, but plenty are still left, especially if you use a flavorful yeast and ferment warm, or under pitch a bit. I have a theory that good tasting congeners may make more of your heads palatable, and allow you to keep more of your late heads in the final cut.
User avatar
TDick
Distiller
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:25 pm
Location: Sweet Home

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by TDick »

badflash wrote:If I drink Everclear, which is supposedly pure ethanol, I never get a hangover.
I once was told the same thing about Scotch.
butterpants wrote:You're not drinking enough of it.
I found that was true about scotch.

As to the OP, a noob's two cents worth.

What I've figured out from a LOT of reading.

I too am curious about difference in yeasts, but I figure that is WAAAY down the road for me. Red Star Baker's Yeast for me although Jimbo challenged me to use 05 in my next AG batch, so I will.

I ASSuME that Bushman in the Pacific Northwest, DerWo in Germany, Copperhead in Australia, and I down in Alabama could all start a batch of let's say UJSSM today with local products and we would come up with results that would taste quite different. Different properties of local corn, climate, season, types of fermenters/stills, and simply different levels of experience would be some of the reasons.

Even if you ran a blind taste test with the results, it would differ by who did the tasting.

The best thing about forums like this is that you can learn from from all types of other "Crafters", then experiment to find what tastes best to you.
That's what I like about threads like this.
Big Stogie
Swill Maker
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Big Stogie »

In my experience so far I have made a few of the same wash with different yeast and when temp is properly controlled my results show me that yeast selection and process control have a big influence on final product. I spoke to these guys and they have some choices used by big producers at a reasonable price not much more that bakers they also have enzymes I just got but have not tried yet http://ferm-solutions.net/product-categ ... hol-yeast/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
When the student is ready the teacher will emerge.

Flute Journey viewtopic.php?f=17&t=69736
User avatar
Stew8
Bootlegger
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:12 am

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Stew8 »

It appears that if you’re using oak or wood to age the spirit; for flavour the wood used is the prime consideration based on experience, albeit limited, and scientific papers I’ve skimmed.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71873#p7536483

As mentioned above, my yeast selection is based temperature/tolerance performance and of course cost.
I’ve tried apple with bakers yeast and have a second batch with generic wine yeast. If there is a significant difference I’ll come back to this thread and let you know
Brew
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat May 16, 2020 10:06 pm

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by Brew »

If it helps anyone:

Beer yeast strains and (unnamed) bakers yeast (strains) are just different strains of the same critter.

But:

Dried beer yeast strains are kept very pure and selected for ability to dry and remain viable with good vitality, ester or lack of ester production, alcohol tolerance or production, attenuation (ability to eat a variety of sugars or not), flocculation or lack thereof, and stability (lack of mutations) over several generations (etc., things that matters to beer and brewers). They're made in a way to preserve shelf life (the point of brewers having them "on hand") and are kept very pure (avoid wild yeasts, other yeast strains, and bacteria getting into the product) during the drying and packing process.

Baker's yeast strains are selected for strong initial C02 production, viability, vitality, and a wide fermentation temperature tolerance.The are made, cheaply, in a way that allows them to quickly hydrate and very quickly start working (bakers don't wait 12 or 24 hours!). Purity in the manufacturing process is not a concern and bakers yeast will have relatively high qualities of wild yeast and bacteria. Shelf life is a lesser concern and use of several generations is not needed (I would not ever repitch bakers yeast.... and there is no need because its cheap....). The yeast strain(s) may change without the buyer knowing too.

The practical difference is you dont store or drink a bakers yeast fermentation, so bakers yeast manufacturing can be done quicker and cheaper. Beer made with bakers yeast is susceptible to beer spoilers (pedio and lacto, etc) introduced from the yeast manufacturering and packaging itself. Using bakers yeast for beer making is a terrible idea for this reason alone.

Distillers, like bakers, dont drink the fermentation and dont store the fermentation over time. Many distillers dont seem too wrapped up in yeast flavor profiles and bakers yeast is pretty neutral, reminds me of a german kolsch yeast in many ways IMO. You can get 10% alcohol from bakers yeast easily. Bakers yeast is neutral at high fermentation temps and ferments quickly. Its explosive fermentation compared to other beer strains. When distilling, you can dump or mitigate flavors caused by wild bacteria or yeast in bakers yeast (if any flavors are ever produced by the time it's distilled; those critters need time, i.e., weeks, to take hold of a beer and distillers dont give those critters the chance). So it makes sense bakers yeast works for them....

I'll probably just use beer yeast slurries that I have on hand, but would not think twice about using bakers yeast for distilling.

If I wanted to make a A + ++ product I'd do everything the best I could, including picking the best yeast for that project. That might be bakers yeast, but not necessarily. Depends I guess. If I wanted a good or very good product, or the best perhaps, most any yeast sounds like it will do...

My 2 cents.. but still reading about distilling so take that fact into my opinion!
seabass
Rumrunner
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 am

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by seabass »

The yeast absolutely can play a part. If you get a neutral flavored yeast, you will obviously get far less flavor from it. If you choose a very strong flavored yeast, like a belgian yeast, then it plays a huge part. Definitely take it into account when you're putting together a recipe.
User avatar
vagabondmountainman
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:47 pm
Location: over the hills and far away

Re: Yeast question from a homebrewer's perspective

Post by vagabondmountainman »

I like experimenting with different yeasts--I do it often in my beers, for example fermenting an IPA or stout batch split into 2 fermenters, one with my go to English Ale yeast (WLP 007) and a Belgian yeast such as a Saison or Trappist variety. They make for very different beers from otherwise the same process. When I make all grain whiskey, I ferment it on yeast that I have already used for a couple batches of beer. I have used the same bourbon and rye recipes with American Ale (WLP 001/Safsle 005), English ale yeast (WLP 007 and 002), Saison yeast (WLP 566 and 590), and Trappist high gravity (WLP 3787).

All of the yeast we use comes from the same original genetic background and is classified as saccharomyces cerevisiae. But, the substrains of brewers yeast have centuries of careful selection by brewers to get just the right flavor. All of them are very different in the finished product due to the esters produced by the yeast and are even different at varying temperatures and pitching rates.

My go to strain for whiskey so far is the 007 English Ale as it ferments fairly dry, but still has lots of interesting flavor -- much more than American yeasts or bread yeasts. Trappist yeast and Saison yeast are both close seconds though. They produce an amazingly complex bourbon with floral notes on the end that are unlike anything you will find commercially available. Not overpowering, but a really nice depth to the character of the whiskey. If you start your fermentation around 70 or so and let it climb up into the 80's or higher with the Belgian yeast you get an very complex ester profile, which also makes it a great whiskey yeast for folks fermenting in the garage or outdoors in the summer without temperature control.

All I can say is try it. Yeast is cheap compared to the time we put into making a good whiskey. Splitting a mash into 2 fermenters with 2 yeasts will make you 2 very good and very different whiskeys to enjoy without spending that much extra time, and its the only way to find out which yeast(s) make the best whiskey for you.
Post Reply