I promise I've done my reading. Have read kiwi's beginner cuts post more times than I can count. About to attempt my first cuts and thought I might get a little guidance so I don't ruin it. I am trying, per the advice from you guys, to not focus on abv and temp for cuts, but I can't help wanting them to add up at least a little bit with typical fractions that I have read in several books.
Eight pounds flaked maize, 20 ounces two row. Bread yeast. Three five gallon stripping runs (with a little set aside just to see how it ages. It's awful). Two inch pot still on 15 gallon keg boiler. Didn't do a great job of getting hydrometer readings on the first two (too much particulate), but I took my time straining on the third and read about 6% starting abv.
After diluting down I ended up with 21L of 20% abv for spirit run. I had taken 120 mL foreshots from each stripping run and to be safe took about 150 off spirit run. Here's what I got.
Temp Volume ABV
184 250 76
187 250 75
186 250 74
189 250 71
189 250 72
189 250 71
188 400 71
192 400 69
193 400 66
194 400 64
196 500 62
196.7 300 61
197.7 300 59
200 300 51
201 300 48
203 400 42
That ended up being 5200 mL at 63%. I know I should have collected lower but I ran out of time. So, two questions. And, again, I know I need to be going by taste and smell. I get that. I'm just trying to figure out if I'm doing things correctly and trying to get a range to expect since my taste isn't very developed for this yet.
1. Everything I read says heart come off around 75-80%. But that's where I start after getting rid of foreshots. Did I throw a good bit of heads out with foreshots since I took them off twice? Or is my wash abv just lower than what people base those numbers off?
2. If you had to guess, where do you think my heads will start? I know it's up to my tastes, just hoping to get a ballpark here.
Thanks, guys.
Cuts advice
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Re: Cuts advice
abv looks good from a start of 21%.
your heads start at the first jar and likely end at jar 2 or 3. hearts will continue until the 62 jar. maybe have a tasty jar around 59.
51 is almost for sure tails.
leave it air out for 24-48 hour covered with cloth in a room where the air doesn't move much. do a demisting test by proofing down to 40% (or at least 45%). if it goes cloudy, you have tails. the lower you can go without clouding, the cleaner the spirit.
"eye" test for heads.
dilute to 20% for sampling for cuts. it will open up the smell and flavour without burning out your taste buddies.
what did you measure temperature on? (i'd ask why, but you already know that, right?)
your heads start at the first jar and likely end at jar 2 or 3. hearts will continue until the 62 jar. maybe have a tasty jar around 59.
51 is almost for sure tails.
leave it air out for 24-48 hour covered with cloth in a room where the air doesn't move much. do a demisting test by proofing down to 40% (or at least 45%). if it goes cloudy, you have tails. the lower you can go without clouding, the cleaner the spirit.
"eye" test for heads.
dilute to 20% for sampling for cuts. it will open up the smell and flavour without burning out your taste buddies.
what did you measure temperature on? (i'd ask why, but you already know that, right?)
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
Re: Cuts advice
Hey, that’s great news. I was afraid my heads would go five jars deep or so. By your math I’ll end up with about five or six 750 mL bottles. Didn’t save a lot of money over commercial since flaked maize is so expensive but I’d still be thrilled with that. Thanks man.HDNB wrote:abv looks good from a start of 21%.
your heads start at the first jar and likely end at jar 2 or 3. hearts will continue until the 62 jar. maybe have a tasty jar around 59.
51 is almost for sure tails.
leave it air out for 24-48 hour covered with cloth in a room where the air doesn't move much. do a demisting test by proofing down to 40% (or at least 45%). if it goes cloudy, you have tails. the lower you can go without clouding, the cleaner the spirit.
"eye" test for heads.
dilute to 20% for sampling for cuts. it will open up the smell and flavour without burning out your taste buddies.
what did you measure temperature on? (i'd ask why, but you already know that, right?)
-
OtisT
- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 3279
- Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Cuts advice
Howdy school.
Vapor temps and ABV of each jar are good to document as you go, so you can learn. First, you are correct that your ABV In impacts the ABV Out, so unless you are running the same wash in the same still under the same conditions your output temps/ABV will vary slightly from run to run. Not to worry. Eventually you should be able to predict with accuracy the vapor temp and output ABV of the jars you collect based on the input ABV.
When you make cuts document what you sense (smell/taste/feel) in the jars and record where you end up making your cuts. Save that data for all your runs. This data should allow you to predict where to make future cuts based on temp or ABV. That said, you should use this data only to know where to look, then you should narrow down your cut by smell/taste/feel. Even the same recipe can turn out different batch to batch so you should you always use your senses to confirm cuts.
One other factor to consider when making cuts is what you plan to do with your product. You will want to adjust your cuts depending on how you will finish your spirit. A white drink usually comes from a narrower cut with little or no heads and tails, where a spirit intended for barrel aging will usually have more heads and/or tails in it. Typically, the longer you intend to leave the spirit on wood, the more heads and/or tails it can tolerate.
For comparison sake, my barrel cuts are typically 50% (+/- 5%) of my total volume collected. I typically start keeping at 30% volume through the run and end my cuts around 75% volume through the run. My white cuts are typically 40% of the total collected volume, and the cuts start around 35% through the run and end around 70% through the run (+/- 5%) I'm attaching a spreadsheet from my latest spirit run as an example that shows jars/ABV/temp/white and barrel cuts/etc.
Making cuts by your senses
I understand you read kiwi's cuts thread, so you know the process. What it does not teach is what to smell/taste for. Here is my take on that subject:
Hearts to Heads Cut - I smell first. I start with the hearts and work towards heads. First I start noticing a sweet fruit and sometimes floral smell that will get stronger as I move toward jar 1. Eventually with the fruit I will start to detect a chemical smell, then moving up in jars the smell progresses to a full on Juicy Fruit (the gum smell) and/or an intense chemical smell (ethal acetate).
Next I dilute samples and taste from hearts to heads. Somewhere between the jar that first smelled of fruit and the full on Juicy Fruit smelling jar I will start to taste a strong chemical taste that bites the tongue and that chemical taste lingers. That is where I make my heads cut, leaving out that first jar with the chemical taste.
Hearts to Tails Cut - I smell first. I look for the jar with the first detectable tails smell. The last jar with no tails smell to it is where I make my white cut. I taste my way down until I detect a strong bitter taste that lingers on my tongue. That is where I make my barrel cut. This is usually half way between the first smell of tails and visible oil (if I have oil.)
Hope this helps.
Otis
Vapor temps and ABV of each jar are good to document as you go, so you can learn. First, you are correct that your ABV In impacts the ABV Out, so unless you are running the same wash in the same still under the same conditions your output temps/ABV will vary slightly from run to run. Not to worry. Eventually you should be able to predict with accuracy the vapor temp and output ABV of the jars you collect based on the input ABV.
When you make cuts document what you sense (smell/taste/feel) in the jars and record where you end up making your cuts. Save that data for all your runs. This data should allow you to predict where to make future cuts based on temp or ABV. That said, you should use this data only to know where to look, then you should narrow down your cut by smell/taste/feel. Even the same recipe can turn out different batch to batch so you should you always use your senses to confirm cuts.
One other factor to consider when making cuts is what you plan to do with your product. You will want to adjust your cuts depending on how you will finish your spirit. A white drink usually comes from a narrower cut with little or no heads and tails, where a spirit intended for barrel aging will usually have more heads and/or tails in it. Typically, the longer you intend to leave the spirit on wood, the more heads and/or tails it can tolerate.
For comparison sake, my barrel cuts are typically 50% (+/- 5%) of my total volume collected. I typically start keeping at 30% volume through the run and end my cuts around 75% volume through the run. My white cuts are typically 40% of the total collected volume, and the cuts start around 35% through the run and end around 70% through the run (+/- 5%) I'm attaching a spreadsheet from my latest spirit run as an example that shows jars/ABV/temp/white and barrel cuts/etc.
Cuts Analysis.pdf- Cuts Analysis
- (257.51 KiB) Downloaded 108 times
I understand you read kiwi's cuts thread, so you know the process. What it does not teach is what to smell/taste for. Here is my take on that subject:
Hearts to Heads Cut - I smell first. I start with the hearts and work towards heads. First I start noticing a sweet fruit and sometimes floral smell that will get stronger as I move toward jar 1. Eventually with the fruit I will start to detect a chemical smell, then moving up in jars the smell progresses to a full on Juicy Fruit (the gum smell) and/or an intense chemical smell (ethal acetate).
Next I dilute samples and taste from hearts to heads. Somewhere between the jar that first smelled of fruit and the full on Juicy Fruit smelling jar I will start to taste a strong chemical taste that bites the tongue and that chemical taste lingers. That is where I make my heads cut, leaving out that first jar with the chemical taste.
Hearts to Tails Cut - I smell first. I look for the jar with the first detectable tails smell. The last jar with no tails smell to it is where I make my white cut. I taste my way down until I detect a strong bitter taste that lingers on my tongue. That is where I make my barrel cut. This is usually half way between the first smell of tails and visible oil (if I have oil.)
Hope this helps.
Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
Re: Cuts advice
Thanks, Otis. So helpful, appreciate it.
Re: Cuts advice
Forgot to answer your question. Measured it at the lyne arm takeoff point.HDNB wrote:abv looks good from a start of 21%.
your heads start at the first jar and likely end at jar 2 or 3. hearts will continue until the 62 jar. maybe have a tasty jar around 59.
51 is almost for sure tails.
leave it air out for 24-48 hour covered with cloth in a room where the air doesn't move much. do a demisting test by proofing down to 40% (or at least 45%). if it goes cloudy, you have tails. the lower you can go without clouding, the cleaner the spirit.
"eye" test for heads.
dilute to 20% for sampling for cuts. it will open up the smell and flavour without burning out your taste buddies.
what did you measure temperature on? (i'd ask why, but you already know that, right?)
-
Yummyrum
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- Posts: 8662
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
- Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie
Re: Cuts advice
School , some great advise there . You are right about the cost of it and it is tempting to squeeze in an extra few jars but this has always been my undoing . The jars you discard are re-run with the next spirit run ( minus the first jar ), the Scotch do this as well ...... so nothing is actually wasted and each run gets a little bigger .
Have you read Better Cuts with better dillution
It adresses the point HDNB mentioned about diluting to open the flavours so you can actually taste whats there . It also gives a practical method to dilute and taste during cuts .
Doing cuts by temp or ABV verses taste and smell has always been a matter of personal choice but at the end of the day , you will smell your drink as it comes to your mouth and it will be your taste buds that savour the flavours . It makes no sense to me to not use you taste buds to do cuts . If ever I take measurements , its after I have done Cuts , this way I am not subconsiously swayed by what I think it should be like based on others statistics .
Have you read Better Cuts with better dillution
It adresses the point HDNB mentioned about diluting to open the flavours so you can actually taste whats there . It also gives a practical method to dilute and taste during cuts .
Doing cuts by temp or ABV verses taste and smell has always been a matter of personal choice but at the end of the day , you will smell your drink as it comes to your mouth and it will be your taste buds that savour the flavours . It makes no sense to me to not use you taste buds to do cuts . If ever I take measurements , its after I have done Cuts , this way I am not subconsiously swayed by what I think it should be like based on others statistics .
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
Re: Cuts advice
that's a good bit of advise too. i pulled the parrot and do cuts on the fly now, just for that reason. i miss the thermo on the lyne arm, i always used it for warm up and tails shut down....just to give easy reference for how long until it cones on line, and when i'm burning gas for fun (205*)Yummyrum wrote: If ever I take measurements , its after I have done Cuts , this way I am not subconsiously swayed by what I think it should be like based on others statistics .
all that said, i'm building barrel stock these days so i'm not so particular as i was when making white
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
Re: Cuts advice
Thank you sir. Excellent advice.OtisT wrote:Howdy school.
When you make cuts document what you sense (smell/taste/feel) in the jars and record where you end up making your cuts. Save that data for all your runs. This data should allow you to predict where to make future cuts based on temp or ABV. That said, you should use this data only to know where to look, then you should narrow down your cut by smell/taste/feel. Even the same recipe can turn out different batch to batch so you should you always use your senses to confirm cuts.
Otis
Re: Cuts advice
Thanks for all the advice, guys. Did my cute this weekend and it went fairly well, I think. I didn’t think I was being greedy but I ended up keeping 70% of the total, so I guess I did. Oh well, I have two more stripping runs set to go and I’ll be more conservative next time.
I’ve moved on to Jimbo’s bourbon recipe for now. Would it be bad to put those corn whiskey heads and tails into my next stripping run of that? Seems weird since not the same recipe but then again they’re both corn based. Thanks again.
I’ve moved on to Jimbo’s bourbon recipe for now. Would it be bad to put those corn whiskey heads and tails into my next stripping run of that? Seems weird since not the same recipe but then again they’re both corn based. Thanks again.