it's been 20 months since the barrel has been sealed and we decided to empty it a couple days ago. We opened it a month in, a year in, and 15 months in to test it out.
the spirits got real "hot" about a month after putting it in the barrel, and never let up. I think 20 months was waaay too long and I dont like this stuff. throwing ice on it makes it tolerable. Looking for a post mortem to find out where I went wrong.
also, for that length of time, i got 1.2 gallons out of the 3 gallon barrel. I watered it down to 80 proof trying to take some of the fire out. it worked a little. Im sure there are more details you all need, just let me know what that might be, and Ill do what I can to answer them.
JellybeanCorncob wrote:180 proof into the barrel?
Waaa?
JBC
i had to go find this.
"I have about 2.5 gallons of 180 proof goodness to go into my 3 gallon barrel. i didnt get much into the heads or tails. Im wondering if pulling some hearts out to add a little tail, or just leave it all hearts and let it age... cuts is something im still stupid on. hard to get an idea of what it will taste like after it ages when you are doing cuts."
i think all of your problems are right there in that sentence. bads cuts, aging hi proof vodka.
live and learn. hope you have been making more and better while the last 20 montrhs flashed by.
HDNB wrote:live and learn. hope you have been making more and better while the last 20 montrhs flashed by.
+1
Has not yet learn, because he's asking what happen.. Who in his right mind would put 180 proof on oak.. need much reading and comprehend yet..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
Put some new make in the barrel in the low 120s and use that for blending with your first run after a few months.
If you are in a hurry, some new make might make an ok blend straight away or given a few weeks to settle down in a jar with some headspace for O2.
A couple of your comments make me wonder if you think it should taste ok at very high abvs. If that is the case, someone has been feeding you misinformation.
In addition to needing a lower AVB and better cuts, also consider that a 3 gal barrel has a high wood area to liquid volume ratio compared to larger barrels, so you should not expect to soak as long as a larger barrel to get enough oak.
theskaz other than a loss of time, chalk this up and learn from it...the cuts are critical, go back and read, read, read some more...and better luck next time...+1 Otis T and NZ Chris
All that fun we had growing up...We pay for as we grow old.
theskaz wrote:...i got 1.2 gallons out of the 3 gallon barrel. I watered it down to 80 proof trying to take some of the fire out. it worked a little...
What was the %ABV of the 1.2 gallons you got out of the 3 gallon cask? 90%ABV into the cask and ??? out? Did it go down, or up?
You said you tempered it down to 80 proof (40%ABV) and it’s still “hot”. That sounds like the solvents in the heads. Often those are quite volatile...to the extent that they will evaporate off first. But diluting the spirit will obviously retard that process.
Possibly the best way to save it is to rerun it. Or, like NZChris suggested....blend it into something good. But if it is truly “off the mark” and can’t be made drinkable, rerunning it will salvage some of it.
Unfortunately, sometimes lessons are learned the hard way....through time. You can’t turn back the clock, but you can get aonther chance to do it properly...especially now that you’re more experienced.
ss
2.5 gallons in at 180 would strip tannins but no sugar. 20 months later and reduced by 1.3 gallons you would have 1.2gal of very concentrated tincture of oak, with no wood sugars dissolved into the mix.
bitter, astringent firewater would be my imagined outcome. Thanks for sharing...one lesson i won't try to duplicate.
I like NZC's solution, blend with a lower proof (or water) and get some wood sugars dissolved in and it would likely (hopefully?) turn a corner.
I didnt realize there were any more replies to this.
I did not put the stuff in there at 180 proof. I did it at 125. as far as cuts, i tend to leave out a good chunk of the heads, and will go into tails a bit.
i have 1 quart of hearts from the original run @ 180 proof, I have that at my disposal. It went in @ 125 proof, and came out @ 112. then watered it down to 80 at this point.
Theskaz: So you ran this through a bokabob and your hearts were 90% ABV? That’s vodka. No flavor there right? I think you said you added no heads at all? And you blended tales, yet you don’t fully understand how to make cuts? Hmmm. I hope you’ve learned the basics in the past 20 months. In my opinion it is Imperative that they are learned and practiced. If for nothing else for safety, let alone a quality liquor.
I’m not trying to piss you off. I’m truly concerned.
Good luck to you.
Take care.
JBC
Ill totally chalk it up to a learning experience, i have no problem with that. that being said, I have to learn, so... what all went wrong?
Most of my posts are very short, as to just get to the point, but i will go in further detail to try and snuff out errors.
what I am hearing, is that even though I used a bourbon recipe, because i used a reflux still, I still got vodka. I know that refluxing will create a more neutral product, But vodka wasnt my goal. My thoughts were that If the product was more neutral, it will pull more flavors from the barrel. this comes from a couple guesses, and 1 successful run.
I had a 10 gallon barrel that I did All grain, 2 row. I used the same still, the same process. and put 10 gallons in for about a year. Out of that came one of the best "whiskeys" I have ever tasted.
I took that and tried to make a more traditional (without building another still) bourbon. smaller batch, didnt think i needed to age it as long. goal was 8-10 months. we just couldnt get the fire down. so figured it needed to sit longer.
i had a 30Gal fermentor and split into 2 runs. i divvied up the run into 1qt jars. after the run was over, i took a large stock pot and started from the middle of each run and poured it in. working my way out and leaned toward the tails. I sampled each jar by just putting it on my tongue, and f I didnt like it, it didnt go in. then that was proofed down to 125, and went in the barrel.
so, as far as the post-mortem, I did the following (correct where needed)
1. used a reflux still/I made vodka thinking I made burbon.
2. aged too long
3. cuts?
theskaz wrote:so, as far as the post-mortem, I did the following (correct where needed)
1. used a reflux still/I made vodka thinking I made burbon.
2. aged too long
3. cuts?
1 & 3. At 180 proof I doubt you would have made vodka unless you really badly stuffed up 3.
2. Aged too long in a small wooden barrel. The barrel is partly 'broken in' now, so keep using it.
Don't re-run this batch. That is probably the worst way to fix it because it wastes much of the age it has acquired. Instead, try blends of new make and shorter aged product, continuing to age them in 2/3rds full glassware or SS with a small charred and toasted oak domino to maintain some wood contact. I've got product that I have deliberately over-oaked to damned near black that I use to make very nice blends with other batches, younger and older, and I've got no doubt yours could be used for the same purpose.
Maybe I read I wrong, but did you make cuts by tasting the jars without proofing it down to around 60 proof? I doubt if you can make good cuts at such a high proof.
Regarding the over oaking, don't worry it can still turn out fine. I had some ryebread whiskey with way too much oak and after taking one stick out and leaving the other in, it came around eventually.
theskaz wrote:so, as far as the post-mortem, I did the following (correct where needed)
1. used a reflux still/I made vodka thinking I made burbon.
2. aged too long
3. cuts?
1 & 3. At 180 proof I doubt you would have made vodka unless you really badly stuffed up 3.
2. Aged too long in a small wooden barrel. The barrel is partly 'broken in' now, so keep using it.
Don't re-run this batch. That is probably the worst way to fix it because it wastes much of the age it has acquired. Instead, try blends of new make and shorter aged product, continuing to age them in 2/3rds full glassware or SS with a small charred and toasted oak domino to maintain some wood contact. I've got product that I have deliberately over-oaked to damned near black that I use to make very nice blends with other batches, younger and older, and I've got no doubt yours could be used for the same purpose.
That sounds very reasonable. so i am clear, are you saying that the glassware would also have a domino in it? or only with SS? I have a couple 2.5 Gal glass jars that being used right now, but they will be empty shortly. in the mean time, I need to make some more wash.
Celis wrote:Maybe I read I wrong, but did you make cuts by tasting the jars without proofing it down to around 60 proof? I doubt if you can make good cuts at such a high proof.
Regarding the over oaking, don't worry it can still turn out fine. I had some ryebread whiskey with way too much oak and after taking one stick out and leaving the other in, it came around eventually.
Cuts are going to be my weakest link. I've done it a dozen times with only the research that is on this site. taking text from posts, and applying it is something I am still working on. I figured that if it hits the tongue and I am pleased, it goes in. if it is full proof, its just going to get better when abv is dropped.
I would love to get better at this, but that is going to be experience at this point, unless someone wants to come to the bottom left corner of the US and do a run with me I do maybe a couple runs a year.
theskaz wrote:Cuts are going to be my weakest link. I've done it a dozen times with only the research that is on this site. taking text from posts, and applying it is something I am still working on. I figured that if it hits the tongue and I am pleased, it goes in. if it is full proof, its just going to get better when abv is dropped.
You really need to proof it down to taste it and to avoid damaging the tissue in your mouth. You don’t need to proof down the whole jar. Just a small sample. I use a glass eye dropper with 1/10 ml markings on it, others use small glass tubes, etc.
There is a thread “Novice Guide For Cuts” by kiwistiller you should read. Since you are not proofing it down, I am guessing you have not read that one. It’s well worth your time.
I would throw that back in the still, dilute to 40% and rerun it. Maybe do another few gallons of mash and strip it, add it into the diluted stuff you're going to run again. Then, take your time and do some really good cuts then back in the barrel. Don't let it on wood as long.
theskaz wrote:
Cuts are going to be my weakest link. I've done it a dozen times with only the research that is on this site. taking text from posts, and applying it is something I am still working on. I figured that if it hits the tongue and I am pleased, it goes in. if it is full proof, its just going to get better when abv is dropped.
I'm going to weigh in just a little since you seem to have more experience than me.
Also, here is a youtube video - hold up @Jes2XU is a fellow HD member.
This is a video he did making cuts and appears to be following @Kiwistiller 's guide.
Maybe this will help you visualize the process.
