CCVM Operation

[Wolfairious]

I am going to make my first run on my CCVM and wanted to run by the operation as I understand it.
So I will be running 10 gallons of 9% wash. My still is a 15.5gal keg fired by propane. Column is 2". The 1st 42" are packed with stainless scrubbies with some copper mesh at the beginning and end. I packed them pretty tight, but I can still breath through it. On top of that is a 6" tall sight glass, then the Tee and then the 8" section with my VC/RC. I'll wrap a blanket around the 42" of packed column. (when people tout column height, is it my 42" of packed plus the 6" sight glass, so mines a 48" column? or do I add the 3 more inches from the bottom part of the Tee to make it a 51"?)

From all my reading the way to run this is to get it up to temp and put it in full reflux for 20-30 min. (adjust the burner down from the full blast it was at to a small flame) Then slowly raise the VC until I get the foreshots coming out slowly. (adjust the water out to read around 120deg). Collect approx 300ml of foreshots and then put it back into full reflux for 20-30 min. Then again raise the VC/RC to start pulling off the heads and hearts. Don't adjust the flame, only keep the water out at 120 deg. From here I understand that you can collect faster (raise the VC/RC) as long as your % alcohol doesn't drop. (mid nineties drop to eighties) That means you are pulling in some of the tails. You should be at around 75% reflux, 25% product? I don't think you should be 50-50 (VC/RC fully uncovered the Tee) right?. (or is adjusting the flame up a bit something you might have to do to collect faster too?) Collect all my heads and hearts. Now I am a bit confused about the tails. Will it just stop if I don't increase the flame, leaving most of the tails? Or will I be able to tell by the smell/taste like I should do in Pot Still mode and at that point just crank the flame up a bit and pull the VC to the top and let it rip out the last of the tails for feints runs? I also heard that the sight glass might "fog" up when the tails come in. Or does this separate them out so much that I shouldn't even bother with tails? Do I have the basic running down correctly?

[Wolfairious]

Ok, So I did my first run. Heating it up at high heat waiting for some steam or something to come out the top so I could turn on the water and see it get knocked down. (wanted to prove to myself my VC was enough). Never saw steam but I saw liquid falling back down through my sight glass (cold morning 35deg F) so i figure it is naturally condensing with the cold air that morning and I turned on the water. Not 2 min more and my sight glass shows half full of bubbling liquid. I have flooded my column. (interestingly cool sight to see, wish I could post the 2 second vid) I cut the flame way back and it recedes. I let it set there for 30 min and then raised my VC and pulled my 300ml foreshots, then returned it to full reflux. I left my cooling water just blasting through. I did not control it down to 120. After 25 min or so I started pulling Heads. I collected about a quart until the smell started to change. Saved that for my next run. I then collected in 300 ml increments figuring I was getting into my hearts. I bumped the flame up the slightest bit and within a min or 2 the column flooded again, so I bumped it back down and left it there, I was surprised at how little flame I needed. I was pulling 93% at 38ml per min. I collected this way until the smell started to change again. I figured I was getting into the tails. I collected another 300ml and the smell was changing fast so I stopped. We were still pulling high % at this point (but forgot to measure this last one) but I didn't think it was worth it to continue. There was still a steady stream falling back down the column from the RC.
We combined what we liked and diluted to 90 proof and ended up with 1 3/4 gallons. Seemed like we got a lot less than when we ran in Pot Still mode but we would pull down to 20% and only throw a quart of tails in that mode. (funny side note, we added back our heads and tails from the last run and the tails jars had ice in them (freeze distillation) because we would collect down to 20%) I never really could get the smells down very well in Pot Still mode (only 3-4 runs under my belt) but I sure could in Reflux mode this time.

I think we ended up with less drinkable because we made much better cuts and therefore were not drinking as much heads or tails this time. (I thought the flavor was much better this time too). How do I figure out the theoretical # of distillations this size column does?

When we got later in the collection, the PC would almost stop producing, it would go from a barely broken stream to a few dips, and then 30-60 sec later it would pick back up to a stream. Is this how I can tell if I am getting into tails? It still smelled fine. When this started, I pulled the VC up to fully uncover the outlet but it made no difference.

[greggn]

An admirable start but don't worry about the details (and questions) until you fix your packing and resolve the flooding. Until then, you'll not see the true performance your rig can deliver.

[Wolfairious]

Yes, I packed my scrubbies too tight for sure. More ram rodded them from one end instead of gently placing them against each other.
So you think if I more gently pack my column i'll be able to pull faster? From what I understand, a flooded column still refluxes fine and from the 93% I was getting I was happy. I let the flood drop back down (not all the way I am sure) so I bet I ran with 21" of my 42" of packed column flooded. I didn't think that was necessarily a bad thing.

[Manc]

Hi wolfairious

Glad to hear of your success it sounds like you have a good procedure. You know my still is a bit different to yours but from my experience 38 ml a minute from a 2inch coloum (2.25 litres an hour) is very respectable especially from a 9% wash and you could probably up the abv by running a bit slower but it's what you want. I now strip my washes before I reflux as it saves time and means I can run faster.

Regarding theoretical plates I'm no expert so please forgive me if I'm wrong but I've read on here that it take 15 plates to reach 95.6% abv which is azeo but I think the closer you get to azeo the difference becomes smaller it may only take 7 plates to get to say 90% and the rest to get to azeo these aren't exact numbers just an example. I'm sorry I can't find where I read this as it's when I first joined. Now I've written it it's probably not much use but it's how I understand it.

I don't think you can pull faster by packing your scrubbies looser as you will lose surface area but by having a bit of space it may help with reflux and increase your theoretical plates From how I understand it the liquid clings to the wire while the vapour rises and reboils it so in a way it's flooded but not completely. But I'm sure someone on here will be able to help I'd like to know also.

The sight glass sounds cool I've never had one might have to go on the Christmas list.

I know these are not definitive answers as I'm new like yourself and if I'm misleading u it's not intentional

Lee

[bluefish_dist]

A 2" column can only take so much heat. With electric it's easy, 1500-1800w, gas, it's tougher. Hetp of scrubbies is about 4". I have confirmed this is pretty close with running packed vs plates. 42" only gives you 10 plates. Bump that up to 60"+ if you want a true azeo. 8-12" can work well for whiskey.

When I ran a 2" keg setup I found my best tasting neutral was at 1l per hour or less. Note that max takeoff rate as a vm slows down as the run progresses.

[kimbodious]

Sounds like a great run Wolf and your recorded observations will be a great help for others running a CCVM.
I had the same issues with flooding until I significantly reduced the number of potscrubbers until there are between 5-6 per foot of column (2”). Your runs will be more enjoyable when you are not having to keep tweaking the burner.

I do run my column so that there is about an inch of bubbling condensate in my sight glass. If the liquid level slowly recedes I turn up my power controller until I maintain a constant level of the liquid again but will be aware I am getting close to the end of the run. When the level of the condensate in the sight glass suddenly disappears I know I have reached tails.

I don’t bother with a thermometer on the still, instead I just monitor the level in the sight glass and the product.

Your reduced ABV is probably just condensate that is splashing across in to the offtake and out the product condenser.

I am happy with the product I get from my 2” column when I am getting around 1.2 litres per hour

[Wolfairious]

A 2" column can only take so much heat. With electric it's easy, 1500-1800w, gas, it's tougher. Hetp of scrubbies is about 4". I have confirmed this is pretty close with running packed vs plates. 42" only gives you 10 plates. Bump that up to 60"+ if you want a true azeo. 8-12" can work well for whiskey.

When I ran a 2" keg setup I found my best tasting neutral was at 1l per hour or less. Note that max takeoff rate as a vm slows down as the run progresses.

Is there a formula somewhere for theoretical plates?
So It seems I was drawing off product too fast which did 2 things: smeared the cuts a little and lowered my ABV to the 93% (which I thought was really good compared to when I was in Pot still mode)

[Wolfairious]

Sounds like a great run Wolf and your recorded observations will be a great help for others running a CCVM.
I had the same issues with flooding until I significantly reduced the number of potscrubbers until there are between 5-6 per foot of column (2”). Your runs will be more enjoyable when you are not having to keep tweaking the burner.

I do run my column so that there is about an inch of bubbling condensate in my sight glass. If the liquid level slowly recedes I turn up my power controller until I maintain a constant level of the liquid again but will be aware I am getting close to the end of the run. When the level of the condensate in the sight glass suddenly disappears I know I have reached tails.

I don’t bother with a thermometer on the still, instead I just monitor the level in the sight glass and the product.

Your reduced ABV is probably just condensate that is splashing across in to the offtake and out the product condenser.

I am happy with the product I get from my 2” column when I am getting around 1.2 litres per hour

I didn't have to tweak my burner much at all. I cranked it for initial start-up and then when I saw the flood, I backed it down to a tiny flame. The only other times I really tweaked it was when I thought I could get more output, but that put me into flood again. I didn't think 93% was a reduced abv (at least not from the 60% I was getting in Pot Still, I was tickled). I didn't draw any product off when I saw it flood, I was in the initial reflux stabilization phase at that point. So nothing splashed over. Good thinking though as it was very turbulent. When it flooded during product takeoff it was a tiny bit because I was closely monitoring it.
5-6 scrubbbies per foot, thanks for the reference, I'll have to re-count mine So you basically run yours flooded the whole time eh? Do you collect tails?
I think we were trying to pull too fast. It seemed slow compared to our Pot Still runs so I figured we could speed it up. Next time I'll remember to run it slower. Couple nice references here for liters per hour to shoot for. 1-1.2l/h
Any ideas about why it would slow to a drip and then start back up?
I read from DAD300 that he controls his water output to around 120deg. So I was going to do that, but the exit hose was flowing out in the cold weather and I didn't think I'd get a good reading on the water flowing out, so I bagged that idea this time and went thermo less.
The pic makes it look cloudy, but it was clear.

[Wolfairious]

Hi wolfairious

Glad to hear of your success it sounds like you have a good procedure. You know my still is a bit different to yours but from my experience 38 ml a minute from a 2inch coloum (2.25 litres an hour) is very respectable especially from a 9% wash and you could probably up the abv by running a bit slower but it's what you want. I now strip my washes before I reflux as it saves time and means I can run faster.

Regarding theoretical plates I'm no expert so please forgive me if I'm wrong but I've read on here that it take 15 plates to reach 95.6% abv which is azeo but I think the closer you get to azeo the difference becomes smaller it may only take 7 plates to get to say 90% and the rest to get to azeo these aren't exact numbers just an example. I'm sorry I can't find where I read this as it's when I first joined. Now I've written it it's probably not much use but it's how I understand it.

I don't think you can pull faster by packing your scrubbies looser as you will lose surface area but by having a bit of space it may help with reflux and increase your theoretical plates From how I understand it the liquid clings to the wire while the vapour rises and reboils it so in a way it's flooded but not completely. But I'm sure someone on here will be able to help I'd like to know also.

The sight glass sounds cool I've never had one might have to go on the Christmas list.

I know these are not definitive answers as I'm new like yourself and if I'm misleading u it's not intentional
Lee

How much time does it save you doing a strip run? I mean you gotta do everything twice basically. Sure the strip time is fast but... does it allow you to pull any faster in reflux? My rate was 2.18 L/h (my math was off a bit the last time) @ 93% + Sounds like I should actually be pulling slower than that from the comments (which might up the ABV and taste) and we thought it was a long day already. If we had to add in a strip run... it would add another hour or 2 right? I tried the strip run then spirit run on the pot still and it did make an improvement in taste but I thought the reflux still would help me do the same thing in 1 run. I think the taste is greatly improved in 1 run in reflux over the strip and spirit run in Pot Still. Azeo is just a number, sure I strived to get towards it but I don't really care too much that I hit it, the Foreshots I pulled were 95%. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be a speed racer and make crap. I actually didn't realize I was pulling to fast already so I will be slowing it down a bit next run.

[Manc]

Hi wolfairious

I also do 9% washes. I do 50litre runs a strip on 3kw takes me 3.5 hours I get around 10 litres at 40% abv I do 4 of these, I then do a reflux run takes about 7.5 hours I'll get 3/4 litres of heads and around 10litres of hearts at 94/95% abv. Total of 21.5 hours I do find you can run it faster as your starting at a higher abv at peak i take off at 3 litres an hour 3 inch coloum with 60cm of SSP. If I do 4 reflux runs at 7.5 hours total of 30 hours. Also while the low wines sit they seem to get better like airing you can also use baking soda to help control the heads.

I understand about the azeo I just wanted to reach it but the difference isn't that much in my opinion as you said it's a bit of an holy grail so we know where to reach for.

Also as soon as the abv starts to drop I know I'm hitting the tails so I stop I feel like the reflux intensifies them so I don't reuse but that's my opinion and YMMV only just found out what that means I'm on it now.

Hope that explains it

Lee

[Wolfairious]

Mine looked like this but not as full.

[bluefish_dist]

You can take off faster from low wines. The 1l/hr is what I did from wash. Never ran from low wines as my rig would do azeo from wash. I do run from low wines now due to space constraints, strip one run, then rerun from low wines in my column.

I know many here don't like thermometers, but I find one invaluable for knowing what is going on in the still. For a neutral, I do full reflux for 30-60 min, then watch the temp during this time to see when it stabilizes at the lowest point. For me that is 163.5-164.5f. Then I take off fores/heads slowly. I watch the temp and once it stabilizes .1-.3 f higher I know that is where it will run. I watch the temp during the run and if it goes up .1 f and I know I am not into tails yet, I am taking off too fast. I will increase reflux or lower power to hold the lower temp. Once I get to my minimum takeoff rate, and the temp still goes up, then I am in the tails.

On volume, you will get a lot less off the still due to the higher abv. Probably 30-40% less volume. Should be the same one cuts are done and diluted to drinking strength.

[acfixer69]

know many here don't like thermometers, but I find one invaluable for knowing what is going on in the still. For a neutral, I do full reflux for 30-60 min, then watch the temp during this time to see when it stabilizes at the lowest point. For me that is 163.5-164.5f. Then I take off fores/heads slowly. I watch the temp and once it stabilizes .1-.3 f higher I know that is where it will run. I watch the temp during the run and if it goes up .1 f and I know I am not into tails yet, I am taking off too fast. I will increase reflux or lower power to hold the lower temp. Once I get to my minimum takeoff rate, and the temp still goes up, then I am in the tails.

To clear a point. Those that you are speaking of are talking about a pot still not refluxing

[kimbodious]

1.2 litres per hour for a spirit run on my CCVM, 3+ litres per hour on a spirit run with a pot. I strip fast with my pot first then do a CCVM spirit run. Sorry I didn’t make that clear before.

I shut down the CCVM as soon as I get any hint of tails. I don’t want that taint through my packing.

I don’t put the column back in to total reflux after collecting fores but I do collect the heads very slowly (2 drips per second) until I detect I am close to hearts. It can take nearly three hours from starting the run before I am starting to get hearts, this includes time for heating up.

I don’t fire up a CCVM run unless I have the whole day free although I have stopped mid-run and restarted the next day

[Getsmokin]

You can take off faster from low wines. The 1l/hr is what I did from wash. Never ran from low wines as my rig would do azeo from wash. I do run from low wines now due to space constraints, strip one run, then rerun from low wines in my column.

I know many here don't like thermometers, but I find one invaluable for knowing what is going on in the still. For a neutral, I do full reflux for 30-60 min, then watch the temp during this time to see when it stabilizes at the lowest point. For me that is 163.5-164.5f. Then I take off fores/heads slowly. I watch the temp and once it stabilizes .1-.3 f higher I know that is where it will run. I watch the temp during the run and if it goes up .1 f and I know I am not into tails yet, I am taking off too fast. I will increase reflux or lower power to hold the lower temp. Once I get to my minimum takeoff rate, and the temp still goes up, then I am in the tails.

On volume, you will get a lot less off the still due to the higher abv. Probably 30-40% less volume. Should be the same one cuts are done and diluted to drinking strength.

This is on a ccvm? Where is your temp probe located for those temps?

[kimbodious]

bluefish-dist runs a VM I believe

[bluefish_dist]

I do run a VM. my first rig was a boca two cups and I had the probe in the takeoff arm about 1" from the main column. Worked well in that it location as it was protected from the falling liquid and gave me the output temp. With the ccvm that might not be the best location as it won't give a temp when it is in full reflux. A better choice would be to make a splash guard and mount the thermometer in the main column below the takeoff. Make sure the probe comes in at an angle from above. It's easier to keep from dripping that way as any liquid runs off the probe instead of trying to get out the hole it's mounted in.

Now I run a T style head with one side looking like a Nixon stone offset and the other the VM takeoff. Thermometer is in the middle of the T between the takeoff and the condenser.

[acfixer69]

know many here don't like thermometers, but I find one invaluable for knowing what is going on in the still. For a neutral, I do full reflux for 30-60 min, then watch the temp during this time to see when it stabilizes at the lowest point. For me that is 163.5-164.5f. Then I take off fores/heads slowly. I watch the temp and once it stabilizes .1-.3 f higher I know that is where it will run. I watch the temp during the run and if it goes up .1 f and I know I am not into tails yet, I am taking off too fast. I will increase reflux or lower power to hold the lower temp. Once I get to my minimum takeoff rate, and the temp still goes up, then I am in the tails.

To clear a point. Those that you are speaking of are talking about a pot still not refluxing

I was quoting about the many that don't like them. With a reflux still you need a good one.

[DAD300]

From PM...

Your setup looks good. Now just learn to run it as efficiently as possible.

I just don't believe 100% reflux stacks anything in a small still. During 100% reflux you are dropping fores and heads back down the packing. With a slow heatup you can get more fores and heads out with minimal refluxing and save yourself a lot of time.

Well, as tall as your still is, you should not need any 100% reflux time. You should be able to make 90%+ without it. You've got 8-10 plates and better Stacking/condensing/withdrawing fores and heads can be accomplished with just a slower heatup.

I have a 4" with 36" of SPP and the vapor is azeo by the time it reaches the top with no reflux. Continued refluxing would just be mixing the components.

You're on a gas burner, so throw enough heat that you get first drop in 60-70 minutes. All the fores will be in the column, most of the heads and hearts. With 10 gallons at 10% you're going to collect less than a gallon, most of your alcohol (bad and good is in the column) so if you 100% reflux, you're just mixing the fores heads and hearts for an hour. The components are already stacked (as best they will be) as they come off the pot and ascend the column.

Does that make sense?

If you had a 50 gallon pot under that column (going to collect 5 gallons), you could better separate the components one at a time in the column with some minimal reflux. But if all your component alcohols are in the column, you are just mixing them.

To get the best ABV you can get, 10 gallons with a 2" x 42" column, once you learn your heat/power settings should take about five hours. One hour for heatup and 4 for collecting at one quart per hour. You should throw away about 20% fores, heads and tails and have 2.75 quarts of 85-90% abv, then aired and proofed to 40% for ~5.5 quarts of drink.

Higher abv doen't mean cleaner (your fores will always be 5% higher abv than hearts)...allowing the fores/heads out of the column with minimal reflux assures cleaner/better taste.

As for time to run a ?? gallon boiler, the still can be designed to run heat on to done in 5-6 hours. A 2" dia can do this on a keg. A 3" could do it in three hours. and a 4" on a keg is probably a waste.

Any faster and you get into product condenser issues... it becomes an arms race. A bigger boiler needs a bigger dia column, which needs more power, which needs a bigger product condenser to keep up! Once you have all that, you want to go faster and...

[Twisted Brick]

To get the best ABV you can get, 10 gallons with a 2" x 42" column, once you learn your heat/power settings should take about five hours. One hour for heatup and 4 for collecting at one quart per hour. You should throw away about 20% fores, heads and tails and have 2.75 quarts of 85-90% abv, then aired and proofed to 40% for ~5.5 quarts of drink.

Hey DAD,

Do these collection numbers refer to a (8-10% ABV) wash or 35-40% low wines?

I am running a 3" x 36" copper column on a 15.5 keg and am encouraged to hear that it should take 3 hours to complete.

Thanks for the most informative post.

[DAD300]

12 gallons of 10% wash, max potential 1.2 gallons at 100%, expect to collect 1 gallon of acceptable at average 85% from 3" x 36" column with scrubbies, an hour to heatup and 2 hours to collect a quart every 15-20 min...now it depends on your PC.

If you did this with 40% low wines, you better have a great PC.

Now want an experiment? Fill your keg with measures of water and see exactly how much it holds. Bet the average keg holds approx 18 gallons...that 15.5 figure is the set standard for a fill of "beer" plus head space.

[kimbodious]

DAD300, are you suggesting we could initially run the still pot-style (blank off the RC somehow) while we slowly collect fores and heads (controlled by the heating) and then introduce the RC and reflux for collection of hearts? Very interesting!

[DAD300]

Nah, that would be too much work, starting and stopping to cap it off.

During heatup, feel the column or watch the temp and start the RC in a slightly open position before/when you think you're close to first drop, enough RC to prevent vapor out the top. Take the fores and heads off slowly and then adjust the RC for the hearts ABV you want.

I believe that with a slow heatup the fores and heads are the first things up the column. Minimum reflux while taking them off is less smearing then refluxing the fores/heads up and down at 100% REFLUX. The transition from fores to heads to hearts to tails is never perfect.

[Twisted Brick]

12 gallons of 10% wash, max potential 1.2 gallons at 100%, expect to collect 1 gallon of acceptable at average 85% from 3" x 36" column with scrubbies, an hour to heatup and 2 hours to collect a quart every 15-20 min...now it depends on your PC.

If you did this with 40% low wines, you better have a great PC.

Luckily, my PC is a workhorse (2" x 21") 4 x 1/2" copper shotgun that has never even blinked when stripping on a 40k BTU burner at max output. Sorry for my ignorance, but wouldn't a 35% still charge phase change at a lower temp than a 10% charge? Why the need for a higher-capacity PC?

[bluefish_dist]

12 gallons of 10% wash, max potential 1.2 gallons at 100%, expect to collect 1 gallon of acceptable at average 85% from 3" x 36" column with scrubbies, an hour to heatup and 2 hours to collect a quart every 15-20 min...now it depends on your PC.

If you did this with 40% low wines, you better have a great PC.

Luckily, my PC is a workhorse (2" x 21") 4 x 1/2" copper shotgun that has never even blinked when stripping on a 40k BTU burner at max output. Sorry for my ignorance, but wouldn't a 35% still charge phase change at a lower temp than a 10% charge? Why the need for a higher-capacity PC?

Yes a higher alcohol % does boil at a lower temp. Also since alcohol takes less energy to boil, more boils at the same power level for low wines vs wash. higher vaporization rate, takeoff rates, so larger pc is needed.

[Twisted Brick]

Gotcha. Thanks bluefish....

[kimbodious]

Nah, that would be too much work, starting and stopping to cap it off.

During heatup, feel the column or watch the temp and start the RC in a slightly open position before/when you think you're close to first drop, enough RC to prevent vapor out the top. Take the fores and heads off slowly and then adjust the RC for the hearts ABV you want.

Thanks. I also do spirit runs (not for neutral) on a pot still, I totally agree with the slow heat up, But on a CCVM, if you’re using your RC in a slightly open position to prevent vapour out the top aren’t you condensing most of the vapour and creating the reflux that you saw we should avoid initially?

[Wolfairious]

So heat up slowly with the RC up enough to partially open up the take-off port. Turn your water on just enough to not allow vapors out the top while you collect your fores trying to reflux as little as possible.

[Wolfairious]

Now want an experiment? Fill your keg with measures of water and see exactly how much it holds. Bet the average keg holds approx 18 gallons...that 15.5 figure is the set standard for a fill of "beer" plus head space.

So you think I could get away with 15 gal of sugar wash? Since sugar wash doesn't seem to foam as much so less chance of a puke.

I'll have to measure my keg. I always thought they filled pretty much to the top.