Mashing & fermenting for beer vs distilling

[Single Malt Yinzer]

This is a off shoot from this thread, read it first for background: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72727

Fwiw and we can consider this thread completely hijacked this is my process:

- I crush the same. The best setting is the best setting for ones process. A stuck mash is a stuck mash
- I mash at the lower end of the scale but at 152. Curious as to what the FG would be at 145
- don’t sweat what’s left in the grains so I don’t over sparge or squeeze
- boil for 10-15 min. I hate bacteria and it separates the hot break.
-immersion chill 70 degrees (5 min)to avoid increase in dms. Warm wash is also susceptible to contamination. (Did I mention I don’t like bacteria?
-ferment in sanitized stainless, under 5 psi pressure at 70 degrees. I am not in a hurry and I don’t like esters.
- bump a few degrees at the end to help finish
- chill to 40 degrees and use gelatin to clarify to get a crystal clear wash

There is much to learn and I hope I never stop. Thanks again for the informative post.

So the issue is that you're still in a beer making mindset. Will it distill into something nice? Yes. But you're wasting a bunch of effort and are limiting yourself stylistically. Please don't think of me telling you what you're doing is wrong. From a technical/procedural view you're totally correct. But you're thinking about how you make good beer. You should be thinking about how to make a good distillate. Distillers use the same tools but in different ways for different purposes.

>- don’t sweat what’s left in the grains so I don’t over sparge or squeeze

Doesn't matter. Oversparge and squeeze all you want. It will not effect your distillate in any meaningful way. The OG of a distilling ferment doesn't matter much other than keeping it less than 1.080 - 1.090. Ferment at 1.020? Sure. It will affect ABV of the wash not the absolute amount of alcohol you make. On a pot still it will lower the ABV of the low wines but probably won't effect how much alcohol you get out of it. Column still? No difference other than it takes a longer to run. 1.080 of 5 gallons and 1.040 of 10 gallons you get about the same amount of absolute alcohol out of it, it just takes longer to run. You're distilling. You're going for the max brewhouse efficiency. Every single sugar that can be converted to a fermentable sugar is what matters. In distilling the difference between 1.080 and 1.075 means almost nothing. You're look at the amount of ingredients in to how much alcohol you make. 20lbs of of barley grains makes ~1 gallon of alcohol (depending on yeasts etc). It doesn't matter if you mashed it 1lb/gallon or 2lbs/gallon. This is an oversimplification, but the idea is there.

>- boil for 10-15 min. I hate bacteria and it separates the hot break.

It's a waste of energy/time. If you're fermenting for 3-5 days bacteria won't do much of anything. When you mash at 140+ for 15 minutes or more it will nearly completely sanitize the wort. In beer you need to keep the wort clean for weeks/months/years. if you do things right the bacteria doesn't have enough time to build a new colony of any size by the time you distill it. The hot break doesn't matter if you're not worried about a clear wort as most distillers aren't. You're also denaturing enzymes that will continue to convert non-fermentable sugars to fermentable ones. Also for some styles of high ester spirits infections are required. LAB is important with some scotches and bourbons.

>-ferment in sanitized stainless, under 5 psi pressure at 70 degrees. I am not in a hurry and I don’t like esters.

Again, wasted resources. No need to pressurize anything. Pressurization will reduce esters (you know that, I'm saying it for other that don't know). In beer esters are normally bad. That's not true for spirits. Esters are to spirits what hops are for beer. Stylistically esters mater. It's kinda like saying you will only ever use .5 oz of 1 type of hop and only ever boil it for 60 minutes. For vodka/neutrals zero esters is what you want. If you make a zero ester rum you'll hate it. Zero ester spirits are like a flat bottle of soda. You'll never make a good scotch style spirit without esters. Even bourbon benefits from esters. I get some people like low esters. That's totally fine. But totally disregarding them is very limiting stylistically.

>- chill to 40 degrees and use gelatin to clarify to get a crystal clear wash

If you want a very clean tasting spirit then yeah, the above works. Again, this is a style choice. I don't. I never cold crash and I don't care about clearing. But I make spirits with heavier flavors. Great for scotch, bad for vodka.

[Anyhowe]

Awesome conversation. I expect if we trade back and forth for a week or so we will see that we are more in agreement than disagreement. I have a great deal to learn and A great deal of experimentation to do. I am always open to thoughts on the craft.

Regarding my original ref to the beer folks, based on what I have read on this forum, if I wanted to understand mashing and fermentation I would spend time on the homebrewtalk site rather than here. Just my observation so far, and no disrespect to anyone. They just live and breathe mashing and fermentation for their craft with no distillation to mask or minimize their mistakes. (They do that by over hopping.) My suspicion your knowledge did not come from distilling alone. And I could be completely wrong about all of this.

For now I want to limit my variables and do the easy things well; sanitation, boiling, finnings etc. boiling is zero effort wise, and does the things boiling does. Crashing and clarification takes next to zero effort as well. Sparging takes time and effort, it’s messy (lol) with benefits that don’t pan out for me. I’ll just add a cup more grains and we’re even. For now clean ferments with low esters is what I am after. I can and will add them back in as the style necessitates and my experiments continue. Beer has styles that rock with high esters. Wild yeast strains, farmhouse ales and sours have their place. Same with whiskey I presume? Idk maybe distilling removes most of that?

If you have any high ester whiskeys that you can recommend I would like to sample them and get an idea on how these play out in the final product. So let me know. You also mention that clarification right before distilling may somehow be detrimental to flavor. Hmmmm it simply removes the remaining suspended yeast and other particles. After distilling and aging for 10-20 years I have a hard time thinking that the yeast itself will be playing a role in finished whiskey , but hey if you know some yeast forward whiskeys I would be interested in those as well.

Fwiw i don’t care about alcohol quantity. So far my limited experience says I’ll take the 5 gal single pot still run of 1080 over the 10 gal 1040 every time. Yum.

Thanks again for any and al thoughts.

[thecroweater]

I came from a beer brewing background and the first time I saw a whiskey mash my jaw hit the ground as you could imagine. The transition for me was not so hard because it was explained why it was different. That said I did start with hang ups on clearing and sterilisation but not for long. It was not really achievable with home malted oat fermented on the grain without a great deal of waste so by mash number two of that recipe I had stopped giving a shit about my old brewing protocols as clouding was a non issue and attenuation wanted to be as high as possible. I am not a fan of sugar carry over in grain spirit where as 100% attenuated beer is some kind of God aweful hopped bitters.
Edit : I have wondered if anyone practices decoction with whiskey. When doing piggybacks I do sometimes boil the mash grain bed I have removed and add the strained water back to the piggyback mash to retain more oat flavour. The reason for that is specific to that piggyback as it is on a single oat malt spent grain bed with non-oat grain added (ei wheat,corn and barley) which tend to otherwise drown out the spent oat.

[shadylane]

Fwiw i don’t care about alcohol quantity. So far my limited experience says I’ll take the 5 gal single pot still run of 1080 over the 10 gal 1040 every time. Yum.

I'll have to argue with that. Yeast likes 1.040 alot better than 1.080.
It will ferment faster and cleaner.

[Anyhowe]

I came from a beer brewing background and the first time I saw a whiskey mash my jaw hit the ground as you could imagine. The transition for me was not so hard because it was explained why it was different. That said I did start with hang ups on clearing and sterilisation but not for long. It was not really achievable with home malted oat fermented on the grain without a great deal of waste so by mash number two of that recipe I had stopped giving a shit about my old brewing protocols as clouding was a non issue and attenuation wanted to be as high as possible. I am not a fan of sugar carry over in grain spirit where as 100% attenuated beer is some kind of God aweful hopped bitters.
Edit : I have wondered if anyone practices decoction with whiskey. When doing piggybacks I do sometimes boil the mash grain bed I have removed and add the strained water back to the piggyback mash to retain more oat flavour. The reason for that is specific to that piggyback as it is on a single oat malt spent grain bed with non-oat grain added (ei wheat,corn and barley) which tend to otherwise drown out the spent oat.

Haha ha I can believe it. Not sure I would ever call best practices for sanitation being a ‘hang up’. Haha, what does it take to sanitize with at rinse of Starsan, 15 seconds?

My mash system is automatic and pretty much geared to be clean, simple and efficient. I just add grains, water and push a button and the whole system does the rest based on my I inputs for temp and time. If I want it to boil, I just add that to the program, click, click, done. The finished washed remains in the same container separate from the grains and is chilled in 5 minutes to pitch temp. I then set the temp on the heat wrap to what ever I want and for how long. When it is done I turn the temp to 40 degrees and it chills, then I simply toss in some gelatin. Two days later it is perfectly clear. So I guess my default system is geared to do what others call extra time and effort without any extra time and effort.

I am not sure I could ever use a cleaning practice where I would say, “it is not fermenting long enough for bacteria I left in my system to cause a problem”. Just not my thing when it is so simple to do it right. IDK maybe if I ran a mountain still or something. Clearly everyone has their own opinion on this. And hey if it works, why change it!! Man there are tons of videos of people tossing sugar and molasses into vats with hot water and a couple ‘big scoups’ of turbo yeast who swear by it. So hell, I have no problem with that. I am learning day by day by the awesome people on this forum. As with everything else, we can pick and chose the bits we want to incorporate and the stuff we don’t.

[Anyhowe]

Fwiw i don’t care about alcohol quantity. So far my limited experience says I’ll take the 5 gal single pot still run of 1080 over the 10 gal 1040 every time. Yum.

I'll have to argue with that. Yeast likes 1.040 aloft better than 1.080.
It will ferment faster and cleaner.

Not sure what that has to do with the results of the run, but as far as yeast goes I will respectfully disagree.

If you keep the yeast under its alcohol tolerance it will be alive and happy regardless of the SG. Of course this assumes you have pitched the right amount and pitched it correctly. With a good quality ale yeast, say S05 it is very happy under 11%. The yeast will not ferment any faster or slower based on the SG. It will however take longer if you pitch the same amount of yeast because there is more work to be done. If you want it to be done faster, just pitch a greater amount of yeast for the higher SG. Which you should be doing anyway. I am not sure what you mean by cleaner?

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Yeast at 1.040 will put off fewer "off flavors" than at 1.080. I put that in quotes because it's kinda key to understand how to develop a flavor profile. For a clean American style Whiskey it needs to be a clean happy ferment so you don't get a lot of fusel oils/alcohols. Those are the "off flavors". For that 1.040 is a great starting point. It will keep the whiskey clean and low esters.

Let's take the opposite of that - Jamaician style Rum. Molasses is a really dirty base to start out with. Due to the junk in it the SG readings are skewed. Unless you have some fancy equipment you can't get a really accurate reading of the sugar as there's tons of contaminates. Starting SGs for Rum can be 1.120-1.140. The yeast they use is design to ferment hot and kick off a lot of fusel oils/alcohols. And temp wise they push it literally to the point of killing yeast. Rum ferments hit 100+. The weaker yeast cells will die. And they take a long time - most are ~2 week ferments or more. On top of this they use dunder & muck. These are starters for bacteria. The bacteria then kick off more chemicals - mostly fatty acids. Those chemicals combine with the already present fusel oils/alcohols to create the signature esters that make the up the traditional flavors and aroma of rum. If you made a clean fermenting rum in a closed aspetic fermenter it would not taste anywhere near the same and the aromas.

[Anyhowe]

Yeast at 1.040 will put off fewer "off flavors" than at 1.080. I put that in quotes because it's kinda key to understand how to develop a flavor profile. For a clean American style Whiskey it needs to be a clean happy ferment so you don't get a lot of fusel oils/alcohols. Those are the "off flavors". For that 1.040 is a great starting point. It will keep the whiskey clean and low esters.

Let's take the opposite of that - Jamaician style Rum. Molasses is a really dirty base to start out with. Due to the junk in it the SG readings are skewed. Unless you have some fancy equipment you can't get a really accurate reading of the sugar as there's tons of contaminates. Starting SGs for Rum can be 1.120-1.140. The yeast they use is design to ferment hot and kick off a lot of fusel oils/alcohols. And temp wise they push it literally to the point of killing yeast. Rum ferments hit 100+. The weaker yeast cells will die. And they take a long time - most are ~2 week ferments or more. On top of this they use dunder & muck. These are starters for bacteria. The bacteria then kick off more chemicals - mostly fatty acids. Those chemicals combine with the already present fusel oils/alcohols to create the signature esters that make the up the traditional flavors and aroma of rum. If you made a clean fermenting rum in a closed aspetic fermenter it would not taste anywhere near the same and the aromas.

Ok I follow you now; you were referring to high SG washes with lots of weird unfermentables. I was referring to clean high SG washes. The lack of cleanness that you speak of is created by the process not the SG. BTW you make rum sound terrible. Lol.

[BaxtersDad]

Fwiw i don’t care about alcohol quantity. So far my limited experience says I’ll take the 5 gal single pot still run of 1080 over the 10 gal 1040 every time. Yum.

I'll have to argue with that. Yeast likes 1.040 alot better than 1.080.
It will ferment faster and cleaner.

Shady, I know you disagree but most decent yeasts like EC 1118 like 1.080 just fine, and make just as clean a ferment at 1.80 as at 1.040. I know this from making wine since the mid-1960s (I am an old guy). It is not as fast because there is more to ferment in the 1.080 wort. And there is nothing wrong with a 10% wash going into the still. But if you prefer, keep on stilling your 5% wash!

[shadylane]

Shady, I know you disagree but most decent yeasts like EC 1118 like 1.080 just fine, and make just as clean a ferment at 1.80 as at 1.040. I know this from making wine since the mid-1960s (I am an old guy). It is not as fast because there is more to ferment in the 1.080 wort. And there is nothing wrong with a 10% wash going into the still. But if you prefer, keep on stilling your 5% wash!

EC1118 is great for making wine but not for whiskey.
Beer and wine have residual sugar for flavor. Whiskey is fermented until dry
1.080 will produce almost 12% ABV. And 1.040 makes 6.5%
Mashing becomes difficult with higher gravity. And yeast will piss more alcohols other than ethanol.
After cuts there's less whiskey in your jug and more feints
The yeast and My preference is around 1.060ish or lower

there is nothing wrong with a 10% wash going into the still.

Your right, I can run a10% wash without it foaming up or scorching
A mash with enough grain to hit 1.080 is going to be difficult

[thecroweater]

Six of one and half a dozen of the other, lower SG will be much faster as higher SG washes tend to not ferment at the same rate right through. That can doesn't always make the faster wash faster over all, you probably have an aim to end up with a given amount and if running to low wines you definitely do. If you have big fermenters you can do larger ferments of a lower gravity naturally but if not your 5% wash is going to need to be twice as fast including cleaning and running time to keep pace with the 10% . That said a lot of washes seem to slow to crawl pretty much at the 8% mark (not all but a lot) so general rule of thumb it's not a bad gravity to aim for. I mean most yeasts can be pushed to around 14% and some even higher but this is where you start to stress the bejaizuz out of them with associated problems like off flavours, pH issue, stalling ect not to mention the ferment will slow down to glacier speed.
Posted same time as above and I've got to agree EC1118 would probably not be my first choice for whiskey but many beer specific yeasts are just great, Nottinghams, coopers pale ale etc.

[Anyhowe]

Yes good reminder that one has to ramp up slower to eliminate barfing.

I prefer single pot still runs. Thus I need the healthy wash. I am currently in the middle of 9% run as we speak and had to ramp slowly. (Learned the hard way). Messing around: It is 87% 2-row and 13% special B I used s05 with no problem. The hearts will average over 50% and they taste so good I can wait to try some tails. Next up is a wash that is likely done and sitting at 10% right now. It is made up of 83% 2-row, 11 % peated 2 row, 3% special B, and 3% pale chocolate. For a change I used distillers yeast. Again no problems. Just tasted the wash and it is as remarkable as it is heavy. Isn’t this fun!

Edit. Be careful what we wish for. Damn those tails got BAD FAST. lol.

[SaltyStaves]

I prefer single pot still runs. Thus I need the healthy wash.

I think your best brewing practices are mostly redundant, but you won't be harming yourself, so if it makes you happy...

The single run through the pot still however.... I think its poor practice and cannot be rectified by how your wash is constructed and how you run it.
Low wines are low wines and you are drinking them.

[shadylane]

Mashing & fermenting for beer vs distilling

One things almost certain.
Distillers mash at a higher gravity than brewers of lite beer.

[Anyhowe]

I prefer single pot still runs. Thus I need the healthy wash.

I think your best brewing practices are mostly redundant, but you won't be harming yourself, so if it makes you happy...

The single run through the pot still however.... I think its poor practice and cannot be rectified by how your wash is constructed and how you run it.
Low wines are low wines and you are drinking them.

A little harsh but not completely untrue. I am in the experimentation phase of the craft. I am running a very small 3 gallon mile high still. Small quantity lots of runs. The runs are slow, and I make roughly small 20 cuts per run. So far I have kept less than half of each run based on my taste and tossed it in with some oak. Right now I am messing with different grains to get an idea on how they taste, and how the process works as well as the effect of oaking.

I am generating a lot (relatively) of heads and tails and will adding these back in future runs after I up the knowledge base of this phase. From there I will add the deflagmater (did I spell that right?) to take advantage of some reflux and see how that works. From there I will step back and reconnoiter. All the while I am having a great time experimenting, learning, oh and drinking. Along with distilling I am making a concerted effort to try many more commercial products than I have in the past to get a better understanding of each of them. Tough job but someone has to do it.

Thanks for your comments.

[still_stirrin]

I am in the experimentation phase of the craft....

Noted.

But Salty has given you sage advice here:

The single run through the pot still however.... I think its poor practice and cannot be rectified by how your wash is constructed and how you run it. Low wines are low wines and you are drinking them.

I’ve heard this said many ways, but this one says it all. Thanks Salty.

The potstill is a great tool. Learn how to run it (best) and you’ll produce a top shelf product.

All the while I am having a great time experimenting, learning, oh and drinking. Along with distilling I am making a concerted effort to try many more commercial products than I have in the past to get a better understanding of each of them. Tough job but someone has to do it.

Yep....that’s what a hobby is all about. Have fun and learn at the same time.

Always Anyhowe, be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss

[Single Malt Yinzer]

1.040 is a great starting point.

After rereading this I'm going to call myself out on this one. This is more of an extreme example than a recommendation. Can you? Yes. Should you? Not really. Go with what the yeast likes, and most yeast can handle much higher SG's than this. Experiment and see what happens.

[Anyhowe]

Yes it’s all great advice. Ok so here is my NOOB take so far. I am looking forward to two years from now looking back at this and seeing how naive I was/am. So here goes.

First off I will likely be doing two runs in the future and I am really curious how they will compare. As mentioned I currently do a small 3 gal single run and take about 20- 50 ml cuts. No question that two runs will make for better cuts. Even if it is just from a mathematical standpoint:

There are two transitions or quality decisions to be made at each spirit run, one at heads and one at the tails. By combining 4 stripping runs into one spirit run I have taken 8 quality transitions/decisions and reduced it back to two. Clearly this will make for cleaner cuts as a result and the alcohol quality of the product will, almost by definition, be better due to that. Distilling larger quantities also improves the product in a similar way (cuts per gal). So there is two strikes against me.

A spirit run will also have two other alcohol benefits: higher abv and cleaner. I am ok for now with my current state of >50% as long as it will age well. Cleaner, is more interesting. It means both separation from the yeast and other fermentation byproducts and it also means a more pure product. Neutrals are very clean. That is one of the reasons I do a clean, well managed fermentation, and why I clarify the wash prior to distilling. I have enough against me already. For a single run I don’t consider those efforts to be redundant at all. Which almost brings us back on topic. Lol

Am I even close?? Haha. I definitely see a 10 gal boiler in my future to strip and keep the little guy for the spirit. Enjoy! And thanks!