Aging

[Mendel]

Again, people are going to tell me to search, but there is so much contradictory information. I am a beer brewer, and in theory I understand distilling, but aging is another matter. I am looking to make peated scotch style whiskey.

As far as I can tell, barrel aging does 3 things:
1) Oak flavor and color go into the spirit
2) Evaporation removes some ethanol and some congeners.
3) Congeners are altered by oxidizing and breaking down.

Thing 1 adds flavor and color, and things 2 and 3 remove, mellow and make it more complex.

Thing 1, I understand. As long as I use the right type of oak, I can do this at any point, and it can be done relatively easy, fast and cheap using chips, blocks or staves - or longer in a barrel.

Thing 3 seems to happen regardless of how the whisky is stored, it just depends on time and maybe temperature and exposure to oxygen. This is in direct contradiction to what so many scotch drinkers will tell you about whisky not aging once it is removed from the cask, but my experience and several friends would tell you that it definitely ages in the bottle, usually for the worse with commercial whisky (flavors become more mellow, rounded, flat - newly bottled whisky is more lively and exciting).

Thing 2 is mysterious and confusing. Theoretically, I'd assume I could end up with the same product as whisky aged 3 years just by using less heads, as the lighter stuff is what evaporates. But I doubt this holds true in practice. This seems altered considerably based on what material the whisky is stored in, what size container, and how long. This is where the contradiction and misunderstanding come in.

Some people say using tiny barrels under 5 gallons is exactly the same as more time in a larger barrel, other people say this just evaporates ethanol and anything under 10 gallons shouldn't be used. Some people say you get exactly the same product using oak in a tightly sealed glass jar, or a jar with a lose lid, or a jar tightly sealed that you open every few days, weeks, months, etc. Some people say to shake, roll or mix the barrels or jars, other say to leave them alone. Some say to keep where temperature rises and falls dramatically, others say to keep temperature as constant as possible. Some people say there is no problem partially filling a barrel, other say you need to use a Solera to keep the barrel full at all times.

I know people are going to tell me to learn by practice, but I am aging too. In 100 years, I'll be dead, and 100 years isn't enough to try all possibilities.

[rubelstrudel]

Well. Use what youve got. Thats how whisky started in the first place. Since we all disagree its not unlikely that multiple routes will lead to the same destination.

[bluefish_dist]

The other variable is what barrel you use. This alone causes large differences in the finished spirit. I have done the same spirit in Gibbs, McGinnis, and barrel mill. All are different. That's not even counting all the permeations of used barrels and previous fills. I would say bigger is better, go as big as you can go for your size still.

Aging does happen faster with smaller barrels. Also new is 2x faster than used in my experience. With good tight cuts, you can have an aged product in 6-12 months. I think tighter cuts might rob you of some complexity, but it will shorten aging time a lot. A trade off. Also I you want to do a rough spirit for a long time in the barrel, use a Gibbs or a used barrel. You want to match the speed of oaking with the aging of the spirit. Rougher needs a slower aging barrel. Otherwise it gets oaked too fast and doesn't have time to smooth out.

[Mendel]

Thanks, I am not looking for a lot of oak, and am not above cheating with oak chips, at least to start. Will probably buy a used barrel, local store has 5 gallons used once for whisky at a decent price.

I can fill any sized barrel, as long as I store up white dog in sealed jars first. The idea of filling a 5 gallon barrel seemed intimidating when I started thinking about it, but that's really just 10 or so 5 gallon batches of beer. I did that almost in 1 month when I first started and was excited to try different beers, but then had to cut back as I wasn't drinking it that fast and running out of room to store it. I am much more efficient now, and doing a 10 gallon doesn't seem too scary. But a 55 is probably out of reach for a while.

I think I should make super-tight cuts, but save the heads and tails and throw then in the next batch. That will give me something to drink as I play with glass jars and weeks or months of aging. For the first time I barrel it, I will probably drain off a half gallon or so every month or so and refill with new white dog (including whatever evaporated). Once I know what I am doing, I will fill a 5 or 10 gallon barrel and leave it alone for whatever period of time I consider optimal.

[bluefish_dist]

If you are going to do tight cuts, get a new barrel mill barrel. 5 gallon. Should run about $150 ish if I remember correctly. It will be drinkable much faster and then as you get more confidence you can do wider cuts and let it age longer.

I just harvested a bm barrel with corn flake whiskey. It is pretty amazing. Lots of butterscotch notes. 15 gallon and it was about 4 months.

[WIski]

I must agree with Blue Fish. The advise given is priceless and spot on as far as I am concerned. I will attach a photo of three aged spirits from different barrels. This shows the color variance but should give you a good idea of what is happening not only with color but flavor as well. Well maybe?? There are so many variables going on with this. That is what makes this an art. All the advise given here is spot on. Use it and have fun!!

The one on the left is a new 5 gallon Barrel Mill Barrel #3 char for six months, the one in the middle is a new 5 gallon Gibbs Barrel #3 char for 2 years, and the one on the right is a used 5 gallon Balcones Barrel for 2 years. All of them are excellent. YMMV

[NZChris]

Again, people are going to tell me to search, but there is so much contradictory information.

Forums are great places to get new ideas, but there are no all knowing experts in everything policing the quality of the posts. If you bone up on theory, you will be better able to recognise whether a suggested method is ok or flawed.

[Mendel]

Again, people are going to tell me to search, but there is so much contradictory information.

Forums are great places to get new ideas, but there are no all knowing experts in everything policing the quality of the posts. If you bone up on theory, you will be better able to recognise whether a suggested method is ok or flawed.

This is why I am posting. I understand the theory as of thing 1 and 3, but not thing 2. Something evaporates with extended time, depending on the size of the barrel, length of time, and who knows what else. I don't understand the theory of evaporation at all, and don't see any helpful posts explaining the theory.

[bluefish_dist]

The barrel is effectively a big sponge. It soaks up alcohol and meters it to the outside for evaporation. It's slow so you lose a small % each year. As I understand it, for spirits like scotch that are aged a really long time in used barrels you lose ove half the barrel. Because evaporation is effectively slow boiling the lighter components like heads evaporate more quickly. Effectively doing a heads cut for you. But it takes a really long time. If you make tight cuts then the time in the barrel can be less since you don't have to wait for the heads to evaporate. They are already gone. The down side of this approach is that they don't interact to form good esters for depth of flavor. It's a trad off, but most of us don't have 15-20 years to wait. Also small barrels have proportionally more surface area and evaporate more quickly. Try a 1l barrel. It will be dry in a few months.

[BaxtersDad]

You are seriously overthinking things.

Buy your still, try a few AG mashes, run them, and maybe try "nuclear aging." Get some good drinking stock, then fool around to your heart's content with "peated Scotch" and barrel aging. Learn to walk before you try to run!

[cuginosgrizzo]

Will probably buy a used barrel, local store has 5 gallons used once for whisky at a decent price.

That's correct. If you want to imitate a peated scotch whisky Islay style you must use used wood. Once or more used wood. Oak flavour must not overwhelm the peat and maltiness of your whisky, and new wood would do just that. Not considering that used wood will also contrubute to complexity of the final product with some of the previous product taste.

[Mendel]

Here is an experiment, or at least a thought experiment, since I don't have time or funds to do it.

Brew and distill around 100 gallons of white dog. Put 55 gallons into a 55 gallon barrel, 10 gallons into a 10 gallon barrel, 5 gallon barrel, 1 gallon barrel, etc at the same time. Every barrel is emptied when it loses 10% of its original volume, and the whisky is transferred to a sealed glass container. Once the 55 loses 10%, everything should be in bottles, and compare the taste of the different samples. If the samples taste almost exactly the same, then different barrels sizes don't affect much except time, but if you have a strong preference for one over the others, then that sized barrel is better.

[still_stirrin]

Here is...a thought experiment...Put 55 gallons into a 55 gallon barrel, 10 gallons into a 10 gallon barrel, 5 gallon barrel, 1 gallon barrel, etc at the same time. Every barrel is emptied when it loses 10% of its original volume... and the whisky is transferred to a sealed glass container...

Dreaming, no doubt.

Question....how do you know when the barrel has lost 10% of its “volume”? The only way I know is to “empty the barrel” and measure what you’ve got.

Now, you could “weigh” the barrels empty and full (gross weight - tare weight = liquid weight). And then weigh the barrels until the gross weight measures a 10% liquid weight loss. THEN....you could empty the barrels.

But I’d suspect you’d reach that measurement much quicker with the smaller barrels. A full 53 gallon cask would take a long time to measure a 10% loss in product weight, several years no doubt.

Hypothetical “what if....” experiment. Just get something started and into a cask regardless of the size and learn what you can about the process along the way. Action is the best play here.
ss

[The Baker]

Put a stick into the barrel through the bung hole.
See that the stick extends above the bung hole a bit.
Think about it some.
Take out the stick.
Decide what units you want to use to measure in.
Say you decide on five gallon units.
Measure five gallons of water into the barrel.
Poke the stick back in.
Cut a groove in the stick where you see the 'top of the water' mark.
Pour into the barrel another five gallons....

Simple.

Geoff

[NZChris]

Here is an experiment, or at least a thought experiment, since I don't have time or funds to do it.

Brew and distill around 100 gallons of white dog. Put 55 gallons into a 55 gallon barrel, 10 gallons into a 10 gallon barrel, 5 gallon barrel, 1 gallon barrel, etc at the same time. Every barrel is emptied when it loses 10% of its original volume, and the whisky is transferred to a sealed glass container.

You might still be equating oaking with aging. They are not the same thing. A small barrel might quickly make you some oak tea, but the oak tea comes without the benefit of reactions that take time and create aged character.

[DuckofDeath]

Honestly no one exactly knows everything that the barrel does. They are still experimenting with different barrels ideas to this day.