Stuck washs

[bluc]

Ok I don't want to sound like an ass but I just want to make it clear. I have been doing same recipes 4ish years. I know how to read a hydrometer and I know when a wash is stuck.

So for last 6mnths I have been having issues with stuck fermentation. Both rum and uj style washs. The only consistent ingrediant is the water. I can do the first wash and it ferments fine. In both I leave the trub add cold water than hot water/sugar. In uj I add the hot backset with sugar mixture. Rum I am not using dunder but re use the trub.
It will seemingly take off then on day 3 all activity stops. I check ph and it's always lower 2.5-3. Temp always fine. Sometimes, more so with the uj style mix I can adjust ph with shell grit. Make a healthy starter then it will kick it off and will finish dry.

Other times nothing I do will make it ferment. Og 1.070 max and nothing I do will get it to ferment. Even tried pugirum yeast bomb.

Generally I use bakers recently switched from lowans bakers yeast to saf instant. One lot rum I had edv493 saf instant bakers and lowans bakers yeast as well as uvaferm restart 43. From various experiments. And nothing.

I have only once had signs of infection from lacto. Never mould or other signs infection. If I didn't know better I would say someone is having a go and dumping citric acid or sulphur or something else in it to stuff the fermentation.

At my wits end and out of ideas. It's getting expensive.

Rum<20l molasses stock feed and 25kg sugar 200l volume
Uj style<20l mixed grain corn barley sometimes some rye or wheat. 25kg sugar 180l total volume.

Thanks in advance for any ideas

[bluc]

Town water ph 7.0 checked numerous times at random intervals..

[HDNB]

i like subbing in on stuck washes because, well, i'm really good at them too. and more info always helps

the advise i got from a PhD who specializes in this sorta thing is this:

you got a bacterial infection. it's hiding somewhere. If you wanna send me a sample i can lab test it and tell you what you got...but it's infected. instead of wasting time doing that though, clean and sterilize everything with star san. i mean everything. then clean it again. and step up your cleaning all the way around.

goddamn if that did not help me on a lot of my problems.

the next thing that helped was starting the ferment at 5.2 to 5.5 PH. (i usually have to add acid. i use some shit from the hydroponics store, figger it don't kill tomatoes mebbe won't kill me)

the next thing that helped was doing my best to keep the temp over 80. i try for 90 but that is a problem for me i have not completely resolved.

for the most part i'm much better now.

for the life of me i can't figger why i can't bring off a ferment in my still. it's insulated so i think it may actually going to hot on the firast night, but i need some kind of data tracker i don;t have (yet)

so i unnerstand you ain't got an infection. neither did i, but after cleaning the hell outta everything...i quit stalling ferments for the most part.

[bluc]

I wish I was over there I would send a sample in a heartbeat. To nail down bacteria and hopefully track down source. But I am in Australia. One wash ago I did a fermenter bleach soak then a sodium percarbonate soak. Did one succsessful ferment in each then stuck again.This time I will add sanitizer to the clean. Thanks mate

[Doctor Evil]

Sorry to hear about your troubles bluc. Maybe try doing a 20-litre wash until you get the process sorted?

I really only have experience with sugar washes. Despite using quite consistent, neutral pH Sydney tap water, I used to have mixed results with my variation of Birdwatcher’s, some batches would finish dry, other identical ones would get stuck at about 1.02, pH down to 3.5 or so!

Then I discovered the magic of buffering. Add chook eggshell, oyster shell, whatever (sterilised!) - at the start, just before pitching yeast. Add some acid too of course, (I use 3g of citric acid in 20l wash) - the yeasts like things slightly acidic and bacteria don’t. So at this point things are slightly acidic, and the shell will have no effect. But as the yeasts do their thing and the wash becomes more acidic, some shell will dissolve, stopping the pH falling further. An equilibrium is maintained, at a pH where the yeasts are super happy.

I say again, throw the buffer in at the start. It won’t affect anything, lying there inert, until and if it’s needed! Apologies if you already know this but it was a real revelation to me.

[bluc]

Maybe infection is coming from shell grit.. does not explain ph crash before adding though...

[bluc]

So I put 1.5tbl bakers yeast in 300ml and

Looks like it's fermenting to me maybe I need to really bomb it so in hour or so will tip this into 12l(3gal) let it grow overnight then put that back in main drum tomorrow..

[Manc]

Hi

+1 on what Dr Evil and HDNB have said

I found when I went to larger sugar washes that pH control is important as although my water is pH 7 it is very soft the water board uses additives to create the neutral ph

Starting the wash at a pH of around 5 helps as it's the yeast that create the acidic environment as others have stated I do this by using citric acid and also add calcium carbonate as a buffer, I find this reacts a lot quicker than oyster shells etc. I check pH again after 24 hours and adjust to around 4 (calcium carbonate to raise and citric acid to lower) it usually stays at this for the rest of the ferment.

Also how much yeast are you pitching if it's 1 1/2 tbsp for 200litres I don't think that is no where near enough.

Hope this is of use

Lee

[HDNB]

i was gonna ask about the yeast. i always proof a big 1/2 and pitch small 1/2 ...and i use 1 to 2 grams per litre.

[StillerBoy]

One wash ago I did a fermenter bleach soak then a sodium percarbonate soak. Did one succsessful ferment in each then stuck again.

I don't know if you realise it, but you answered your own question..

As it was pointed out, sanitation is an important step to the process.. as is the Ph of a sugar wash.. and the best product to assist in the management of Ph issues in not oyster shell, (to slow to work properly, ok in some grain mash, but not all grain mash) but calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide..

Mars

[paddy1000111]

Sounds like a bacterial infection to me turning into vinegar hence the acidity level.

Out of interest what is your process for cleaning the fermenter each time? I got lazy once and after one successful ferment I rinsed everything with a little bit of washing up liquid and then went onto the next brew, it was super acidic and absolutely stank. I use Milton sterilising fluid (the one for baby bottles etc) and leave that in there for atleast 45 minutes before reloading.

I usually rack my wash off at the end into a separate container for settling. I take my main fermenter and wash it with dish soap, then add Milton steriliser and fill it to the brim with water then put the lid on so the lid gets a sterilisation too. Whilst that's sterilising I do my mix in a separate pot which takes 30+ minutes and when that's ready I drain out my main fermenter without rinsing it and then chuck in the next batch.

[bluc]

Uj style I normally do 5 gens without touching fermenter re using grain bed and yeast cake adding backset. Don't add more yeast. Same with rum but I don't use dunder in my rum. Been doing it that way bout 5 years up till 6mnths ago...

[shadylane]

Maybe infection is coming from shell grit.. does not explain ph crash before adding though...

I used to have ph crash problems. Now I add neutrients and shell grit before pitching the yeast.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Star San everything. If it's an acetic acid or other bacteria it should fix it for a run or two at a minimum. If it's not then you'll know that wasn't the answer.

Are you open or closed fermenting? Acetic acid bacteria tends to be aerobic. If you're open fermenting but a lid on it after the first few days to reduce its effect. It doesn't need to be airtight, just enough so that the CO2 blanket from the fermentation protects the wash until the yeast can do its job.

The issue is that bacteria reproduce at a much higher rate than yeast. But the time yeast gets going the AAB has used up the food source and made the environment too inhospitable for to work properly.

[shadylane]

I can do the first wash and it ferments fine. In both I leave the trub add cold water than hot water/sugar. In uj I add the hot backset with sugar mixture. Rum I am not using dunder but re use the trub.
It will seemingly take off then on day 3 all activity stops. I check ph and it's always lower 2.5-3. Temp always fine. Sometimes, more so with the uj style mix I can adjust ph with shell grit. Make a healthy starter then it will kick it off and will finish dry.

I don't think you have a problem with infection.
Bakers yeast doesn't like too much trub, especially without good pH control

[HDNB]

I can do the first wash and it ferments fine. In both I leave the trub add cold water than hot water/sugar. In uj I add the hot backset with sugar mixture. Rum I am not using dunder but re use the trub.
It will seemingly take off then on day 3 all activity stops. I check ph and it's always lower 2.5-3. Temp always fine. Sometimes, more so with the uj style mix I can adjust ph with shell grit. Make a healthy starter then it will kick it off and will finish dry.

I don't think you have a problem with infection.
Bakers yeast doesn't like too much trub, especially without good pH control

i'm gonna disagree a little, based on what i done did over the last few years.
i ran 26 UJ gens back to back for just over a year. i abused those ferments, too hot, too cold, too long, open ferments (Loose lid) too much sugar... the one thing they had in common was a ton of yeast trub 1.5-2 gallons of trub in a new ferment, just dumping room temp water and pouring in table sugar and stirring.
i also have not seen a ferment go under 3.8 without what appears* to be bacterial infection.
* no lab proof or petri dishes, just observations.

since then i have made AG ferments with trub from dry ferments without issue,they went off fine. thenone ferment that i started, pitched a new yeast in got it cooking along and then added to a fermenter with about 10% trub from a ferment that stalled...and sure as shit...that small amount of trub stalled the next one. no smells of nasty shit..it just never finished.

[bilgriss]

If I read right, and your pH has dropped to 2.5, that can be the culprit. When the ferment is acidic below some threshold, yeast stop working. It's like one of us trying to run a marathon in 110 degree weather. Just wears you out really fast. (Not that I could run one in perfect weather). I bet that first wash didn't drop as low. Oyster shells are a favorite for buffering pH. I am more likely to use egg shells, crushed. Works great.

[shadylane]

i'm gonna disagree a little, based on what i done did over the last few years.
i ran 26 UJ gens back to back for just over a year. i abused those ferments, too hot, too cold, too long, open ferments (Loose lid) too much sugar... the one thing they had in common was a ton of yeast trub 1.5-2 gallons of trub in a new ferment

That isn't all trub in a UJ it's mostly corn. Which also helps buffer the pH

I also have not seen a ferment go under 3.8 without what appears* to be bacterial infection.
* no lab proof or petri dishes, just observations.

I thought the low pH the yeast made, was detrimental to bacteria.
Not the other way around

[HDNB]

I also have not seen a ferment go under 3.8 without what appears* to be bacterial infection.
* no lab proof or petri dishes, just observations.

I thought the low pH the yeast made, was detrimental to bacteria.
Not the other way around

i believe the science backs you up on that shady, as a rule.

the observations when i get a good ferment the PH is always 3.8 or higher. when it stalls, it's under 3.8...the reason i say "appears" to be bacterial is because i don't really know, never had a lab confirm it.
This science is well outta my pay grade, my assumption come from the PhD guy referenced earlier who told me i was experiencing bacterial stalls, and when i stepped up the sanitation the problem went away.

there are bacteria (lacto and pedio) in ferments that will survive lower, (sub 3.5) even though they thrive at higher.
In theory the yeast fermentation (according to my reading) should curtail around 4.2, yet mine seem to go to 3.8, so i may have a test meter problem too.

it would be great if some of the bio-chemist brewers here had more information. this gets really complicated, with a whole new set of enzymes involved, different breeds of bugs.... and i just have not found the right rabbit hole to definitively answer the question that plagues us all- why did this f^&*r stall again???

all i know is what happens, i'd sure like to figger the why of it though.

[shadylane]

It would be great if some of the bio-chemist brewers here had more information. this gets really complicated, with a whole new set of enzymes involved, different breeds of bugs.... and i just have not found the right rabbit hole to definitively answer the question that plagues us all- why did this f^&*r stall again???

all i know is what happens, i'd sure like to figger the why of it though.

Yeast 2.1 is not only over my head, it also gives me a head ache
But a 1/2 pint of high proof will rinse that away
I read somewhere that yeast are female
It might be easier to keep the yeast happy, than to expend energy trying to figure it out.

[Saltbush Bill]

Bakers yeast doesn't like too much trub, especially without good pH control

That has not been my experience.

i abused those ferments, too hot, too cold, too long, open ferments (Loose lid) too much sugar... the one thing they had in common was a ton of yeast trub 1.5-2 gallons of trub in a new ferment, just dumping room temp water and pouring in table sugar and stirring.

Have done pretty much the same here and never had problems. UJ especially gets a pretty big build up of trub in the bottom after a few years worth of Generations.