Off-Flavors in Distillate

[rparody]

Master Distillers.. hear my cries!

Background: I started out on a tiny 5 gallon chinese pot still with a thumper. I learned the art of distilling and cutting via this method. Not professional at it or anything, but I would say I have gained a decent understanding of distilling over the past couple of years. I upgraded to a reflux still because I wanted to work on making neutrals. Fine Fine Neutrals. My still is a 15 gallon, LM, 2 ft tall x 2" diameter x 3/8" worm cooled one. It has taught me the art of refluxing and how its important for getting some really pure stuff. So let's just say I understand what is going on with temperatures and the science behind what goes into distilling and making cuts.

My cry is I cannot make a product that is free of some type of off-flavoring. I read what other distillers say their end product tastes like, and I cannot for the life of me (with step by step instructions) get an end-game that i am satisfied with. It does not taste like water with a little bit of burn. It tastes like sweet with burn, but not a good sweet. More like a pungent nasty sweet. Sometimes it tastes like rubbing alcohol which gives my gag reflex a good kick. Sometimes it comes out tasting like some kind of cough syrup. (Before you ask, this is at 40%, room temperature stuff, dead in the middle of the hearts, when tasting). I have tried using sodium carbonate in the low wines for a week, shaking once a day. I have tried running the still at 1400 Watts just to help try and make better cuts. And no matter what I do, I end up getting most of the hearts stuff in the middle to taste like the lowest of lows hooch. The ONLY thing that I have not done to help try and remedy this, is filter the yeast off of the initial wash. But I have always done a secondary rack, the first rack having already been sparkaloid'd to death. But even then, there are usually still some yeast in the wash when i do the initial stripping run. And they are there on the bottom of the boiler when i get done 'stillin. Ugghhhh.

Finally at wits end in just wanting to create a nice smooth finished clean product (that I shouldn't have to filter with charcoal), I am now going to the community to ask for help in the process. Maybe there is something I am missing. Are the yeast really the reason why my final product is getting turned nasty? I am willing to answer as many questions as needed to get to the bottom of my problem. I'm ready to make some good clean stuff. Thank you everyone in advanced!

[acfixer69]

My first question to you would be what is your recipe and if not a "tried and true" you need to include all the details of what you are doing. Next what are you using as a reflux condenser and how are you controlling it.
Also, a 24" column is short for a LM column so you maybe just smearing with little or no separation.

[rparody]

My first question to you would be what is your recipe and if not a "tried and true" you need to include all the details of what you are doing.

I used Wineo's Sugar wash recipe scaled up to 28 gallons.

Next what are you using as a reflux condenser and how are you controlling it.

The condenser is a coil with water running through it that is pumped from a reservoir below.

Also, a 24" column is short for a LM column so you maybe just smearing with little or no separation.

I use a ton of those scrubby pads to help with the refluxing. Not sure if that helps with the smearing or not. But tell me more about this smearing. And is there anything I can do to help alleviate it?

[greggn]

Are you running a power controller ? If not, you may be over-powering that 24" column and smearing the fractions all throughout your run.

[rparody]

Are you running a power controller ? If not, you may be over-powering that 24" column and smearing the fractions all throughout your run.

Yes sir. I have a controller. I generally try to keep it around 1400 Watts for a spirit run. And I do this on a 2:1 reflux and get out around 94% stuff. On a stripping run, I can get it up maybe around 2k max. I am in the works of upgrading my coil to a shotgun. Heard they were much much more efficient.

[acfixer69]

Smearing happens when the vapor speed is too fast for the vapors to separate and stabilize. This can happen when a column is too short, there may not be enough room for the different compounds to stack. I didn't run my boka but a few times before I gave it to a guy I didn't like to much. And built my plated column.
I'll leave it to the LM guy's to get more details.
Good luck

[NZChris]

What are the scrubbies made out of?

What are the seals made out of?

Are you spirit running low wines? If, yes, are you removing a foreshot when stripping?

[rparody]

Smearing happens when the vapor speed is too fast for the vapors to separate and stabilize. This can happen when a column is too short, there may not be enough room for the different compounds to stack. I didn't run my boka but a few times before I gave it to a guy I didn't like to much. And built my plated column.
I'll leave it to the LM guy's to get more details.
Good luck

Thanks for the info!

What are the scrubbies made out of?

Scrubbies are SS. And I have them over 3/4 of the way up the column.

What are the seals made out of?

When you say seals, I assume you mean the spot between the lid of the boiler? I am not 100% sure what the material is that it is made out of. Some form of plastic/vinyl maybe?

Are you spirit running low wines? If, yes, are you removing a foreshot when stripping?

Yes. And I remove over 500mL of "foreshots" during the stripping run.

[still_stirrin]

My still is a 15 gallon, LM, 2 ft tall x 2" diameter x 3/8" worm cooled one.

Whaaaat?

You have a liquid managed (LM) reflux column (thinking Bokakob here) and you have a worm product condenser? The LM head itself produces condensate. So you don't need a "worm".

Now, if you're simply confusing terms such that the reflux condenser is a coil of copper...then, OK. But, it isn't a "worm".

...I cannot make a product...that i am satisfied with.
--> It does not taste like water with a little bit of burn.
--> It tastes like sweet with burn, but not a good sweet. More like a pungent nasty sweet.
--> Sometimes it tastes like rubbing alcohol which gives my gag reflex a good kick.
--> Sometimes it comes out tasting like some kind of cough syrup.

...Maybe there is something I am missing. Are the yeast really the reason why my final product is getting turned nasty? I am willing to answer as many questions as needed to get to the bottom of my problem.

Well, what's the recipe? What's the OG?

Too high of starting gravity can cause the yeast to produce undesirable congeners (the source of your "off flavors").

Did you use yeast nutrients, if so...how much and what type? Again, the yeast activity may be to blame here. And along this line of questioning, did you mistakenly use a "Turbo yeast"? A lot of newbies have fallen for this home brew shop ruse. Don't do it. And don't try to push your sugar content above 10%ABV potential. Garbage in --> garbage out!

Bottomline, a keg boiler with a 2" reflux column 36-40" tall should be able to produce azeotropic alcohol. And if you indeed do have a LM, they surely will produce azeo, although they'll be very slow to do it.

If the product isn't good, then you've got to find the source of the problem. And if it isn't the equipment and how you run it, it must be from the ferment and the processes used to produce the wash.
ss

[StillerBoy]

Next what are you using as a reflux condenser and how are you controlling it.

You were asked about your reflux condenser, and you responded stated it was a coil with water running through it.. that's not a reflux condenser, what you mention is a product condenser..

So I guess is you don't have a reflux condenser ? ? or you are not aware what it is ? ?

Mars

[NZChris]

Stainless steel doesn't have the flavor advantages that copper has. If your still is all SS, you can add copper to the boiler and use copper scrubbies in the vapor path to compensate.

If the seals are some plastic other than PTFE, they my be causing problems.

[rparody]

Well, what's the recipe? What's the OG?

Too high of starting gravity can cause the yeast to produce undesirable congeners (the source of your "off flavors").

Did you use yeast nutrients, if so...how much and what type? Again, the yeast activity may be to blame here. And along this line of questioning, did you mistakenly use a "Turbo yeast"? A lot of newbies have fallen for this home brew shop ruse. Don't do it. And don't try to push your sugar content above 10%ABV potential. Garbage in --> garbage out!

Bottomline, a keg boiler with a 2" reflux column 36-40" tall should be able to produce azeotropic alcohol. And if you indeed do have a LM, they surely will produce azeo, although they'll be very slow to do it.

If the product isn't good, then you've got to find the source of the problem. And if it isn't the equipment and how you run it, it must be from the ferment and the processes used to produce the wash.
ss

My recipe is Wineo's Sugar Mash scaled up to 28 gallons. The OG is around 1.065 - 1.070. I did use yeast nutrients, but its not too much for 28 gallons. 4 tsps total of diammonium phosphate.

Well my reflux column is only 2' tall, not 3-4'. So maybe that is part of the problem? And I assumed when I built it, that it was a LM reflux still because I have a 2 valves that I use to control the liquid that condenses from the condenser. I set how much I collect out of one valve and how much flows back into the column to be re-dstilled through another valve.

I am bounce between using bread yeast and distillers yeast (DADY). Or at least I have to see if either one would give a better product. But neither do it seems.

I am not sure to be honest with you, whether it is the mash or if it is the equipment. That is what I am hoping to get to the bottom of by talking with you all on here.

[rparody]

Next what are you using as a reflux condenser and how are you controlling it.

You were asked about your reflux condenser, and you responded stated it was a coil with water running through it.. that's not a reflux condenser, what you mention is a product condenser..

So I guess is you don't have a reflux condenser ? ? or you are not aware what it is ? ?

Mars

Sorry, I am getting the terminology mixed up. I do not have a "reflux condenser." I only have a product condenser, and with the condensed liquid, I manage where the liquid goes via valves. One valve sends the product back into the column for the reflux, the other sends the product out for collection.

[rparody]

Stainless steel doesn't have the flavor advantages that copper has. If your still is all SS, you can add copper to the boiler and use copper scrubbies in the vapor path to compensate.

If the seals are some plastic other than PTFE, they my be causing problems.

So the column and condenser are all copper. 2" diameter copper. The boiler is SS. The srubbies are SS. I guess I could switch over to Copper scrubbies as well.

As far as the seal... I think I used a piece of tubing and cut down the middle and then wrapped it around the edge of the pot. The lid sits down on top of it and then I use a couple of piece of wood and some tie down straps to lock the lid onto the boiler. It works well with no leaks. But now you have me wondering about the composition of the tubing I had. Maybe I should just switch over to some silicone tubing instead? That is resistant against leaching right?

[NZChris]

I asked my gasket supplier what he had that he would recommend, thinking that silicone would be on the list. It wasn't.

[rparody]

I asked my gasket supplier what he had that he would recommend, thinking that silicone would be on the list. It wasn't.

Ah man!!! That sucks. I only thought that because the Chinese still I bought came with a silicone gasket to seal the lid. Guess I'll have to check out the pfte stuff. Thanks for the info!

Any other advice on my problems?

[NZChris]

I think your flavor problem is something to do with the wash.

[rparody]

See. That's what I was thinking too! I originally said I have never filtered out all the yeast before and maybe that might be causing some of the problem. I wonder if anyone else has struggled with yeast causing off flavors when put into the boiler. It isn't that much, but its enough to cause a slight haze still in the boiler. So I think the low wines are getting tainted by these yeast.

As far as smearing is concerned, I have no idea if a 2ft column running around 1400W would cause "smearing." I know for sure that when I go to do cuts, there is barely any difference between the heads/hearts/tails. So if anyone has some great troubleshooting skills in this area... I Am all eyes.

[NZChris]

You describe finding it in middle hearts. The only times I've had faults then, I've smelled it in the fermenter before stripping.

I've never filtered out yeast. I just try to leave most of the trub in the fermenter. Nobody has ever commented on a yeast taste.

[rparody]

I have never really paid too much attention to PH when I'm doing fermenting stuff. Do you?

[HDNB]

while i agree that ferments are GIGO....your problem is screaming "equipment" at me.

so you got 2 feet of two inch copper stuffed with SS scrubbies and it turns the corner into a 3/8 worm and then on this worm you have two valves...one that sends smeared product back to the column, and the other leaks smeared product into a collection jar?

Sorry, I am getting the terminology mixed up. I do not have a "reflux condenser." I only have a product condenser, and with the condensed liquid, I manage where the liquid goes via valves. One valve sends the product back into the column for the reflux, the other sends the product out for collection.

I'd have to suggest that you go and have a look at still designs and choose something that actually works. Alternatively get out the visa card and buy something from larry or one of the reputable still sellers out there.

i cannot imagine ever finding success with the equipment you have described.

[StillerBoy]

your problem is screaming "equipment" at me.

I'm in agreement with HDNB.. a picture of your still set up would help, because what you are describing is not a LM ..

Mars

[Saltbush Bill]

when I go to do cuts, there is barely any difference between the heads/hearts/tails.

There should be a distinct difference, if there isnt something is very wrong.
HDNB is right when he says your whole problem starts with your reflux still being way to short .....2 foot is not long enough by any stretch of the imagination.
Id also be very interested to see photos of this still.

[Yummyrum]

Short column , coiled worm condenser , two valves ... one going back to column

Is it this one ?

DB665F9A-197C-43E3-83A7-9EAC98AB454D.jpeg (11.2 KiB) Viewed 2359 times

http://moonshine-still.com/valved-reflux-still-head/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[NZChris]

I have never really paid too much attention to PH when I'm doing fermenting stuff. Do you?

For sugar washes, I've taken to putting some whole sea shells in the fermenter at the start. Since I started doing that, I haven't had a problem with pH crashes. I always record pH readings and the weight loss of the shells at the start and finish because the data might become handy in the future and for if something goes wrong. pH strips are cheap and are accurate enough for my purposes unless I'm fermenting rum. So, I guess my answer to your question is, if a ferment slows and pH papers shout a warning, I will pay attention

[rparody]

Alrighty. For all of the gentlemen that wanted to see the still head. I got some pictures with a tape measure to show you what I built. It looks very very similar to the one that yummyrum posted.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PtTXU ... tI6bs3x30O

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VcL3S ... f_-1LMhvj-

[rparody]

I'd have to suggest that you go and have a look at still designs and choose something that actually works. Alternatively get out the visa card and buy something from larry or one of the reputable still sellers out there.

i cannot imagine ever finding success with the equipment you have described.

Whew. Well to say the least, I won't be buying a new still from Larry hahahaha. I am a DIY'r, I don't believe in taking the easy way out of things. If I can't get any resolution on this design, then I will scrap it and build another one I suppose. But I am honestly curious why you believe I won't ever find success with this design? Can you point me to some literature as to why this type of reflux column does not work?

HDNB is right when he says your whole problem starts with your reflux still being way to short .....2 foot is not long enough by any stretch of the imagination.

So I like this, because you are telling me a solution may be to lengthen the column. Which wouldn't be too hard to do (unsoldering the current column and putting a longer piece of 2" pipe in it's place). So I guess my question stemmed from this little sub-topic is... How tall? It was my understanding (from what I read on the parent site and looking at the charts and stuff)... that the column height is directly proportional to how "pure" the product will come out when collecting (in one distillation)... and I read nothing about how extra length will help with smearing. Which honestly, the word smearing is pretty new to me after browsing these forums for a year or so. So... explaining why a 2' column is not sufficient enough to eliminate smearing vs. a 3' column eliminates it, would be great.

[rparody]

For sugar washes, I've taken to putting some whole sea shells in the fermenter at the start. Since I started doing that, I haven't had a problem with pH crashes. I always record pH readings and the weight loss of the shells at the start and finish because the data might become handy in the future and for if something goes wrong. pH strips are cheap and are accurate enough for my purposes unless I'm fermenting rum. So, I guess my answer to your question is, if a ferment slows and pH papers shout a warning, I will pay attention

According to Wineo's recipe (in the tried and true section)... his mix of chemicals acts as a buffer to not allow the pH to move up and down very much. I assumed that his calculations were good with pH throughout the entire fermentation, so I never really bothered to pay much attention to the pH. But I suppose I can take a look at the pH and keep a journal of it. None of the stuff that I have ever made from Wineo's recipe has come out smelling or tasting bad at all. It smells like a nice clean wash that needs some good stilling.

[still_stirrin]

Thanks for the photos.

But, can you post them on this site rather than a separate Google drive. There is an “attachment” tab below the reply entry box...click it and upload your photo. Remote photo hosts won’t sustain through time and your thread will become wasted. So, resize them to not bigger than 800x800 pixels and upload them to the HD site.

Now, with regad to your offset LM head, I see a couple of features which are less than optimum.
—> 1) the height of the (packed) column below the condensate return line is only 16”. So that’s all the reflux height you get crdit for and it will limit the potential purity you can attain with the column. Other things, like packing materials also affect the efficiency and purity potential as well. But column height affects the number of potential reflux reboilings you can attain, and hence the potential purity.
—> 2) the ball valves in your liquid takeoff lines won’t give you fine enough control to regulate the reflux processes properly. Also, because you have two valves, you can actually flood the reflux condenser chamber. If the product takeoff is closed, or nearly closed, then the liquid will accumulate in the chamber if the return valve isn’t opened enough.

A solution would be to insert the return tubing inside the chamber to a height that the liquid cup holds a determined volume, say 1 ounce or 20 milliliters or so. Then, put a “pigtail” loop in the return line so that vapors won’t push through it and the spill over into the return line (in the liquid collection cup) and route that line back to the column. And I’d suggest raising that return as high as possible to increase the (effective) height of the packed column.

But ultimately, the Nixon-Stone style of offset head should be an efficient reflux head capable of high purity nuetrals. You should not have a problem of recurring off flavors in the product if you operate it properly....and you start with a properly produced wash. If using the Wineo’s sugar wash according the the T&T, that should not be the source of your problems.

Of note, I prefer to use Rad’s All-Bran recipe for my neutrals. It is easy and cost effective to make and the bran flakes provide the needed nutrients while helping to buffer the pH. Still, adding some crushed eggshells helps to keep the acid level in check.

Again, please resize your photos and post them on this website. Thanks.
ss

[still_stirrin]

One more thought, since you said you like to build instead of buy...did you do the mandatory cleaning protocol with your new build? If not, that could be the source of your crappy tasting product.
ss