Otis' Pot and Thumper

[NEGaxSEGa]

The numbers you listed above are incorrect, so I want to make sure we are talking apples to apples here.

Thanks, Otis. I think we're on the same page. I just wasnt clear on the length and diameter of the outer tubing, mistaking it for 1.5" instead of 2".

Seems a shame not to use the worm I have, but something like this is extremely attractive because it's compact and modular.

[OtisT]

Will not support that ports down to the lower end of the thumper Inlet not fill easily because of back pressure from the liquid in the thumper? I would think you would want to create a port that will dump into the top of the thumper. If this works well yours might be a much easier way to do it

There is no back pressure issue adding liquids with this design. I’ll try to verbalize, though I may need to draw a picture. Let me try....

When adding liquids, the valve is positioned so that vapor bypasses the thumper and goes straight to the PC.

While the valve in this position has sealed the input to the thumper, the output of the thumper is still open to the PC. When using the bypass, having enough liquid in the thumper ( for bubbling ) creates a vapor seal that prevents any vapor from moving backwards into the thumper, so it all goes out the PC. Just like a drain trap.

When I open the liquid port (remove the copper cap) my thumper is now open to the atmosphere at both ends, with that liquid vapor seal (pipe in liquid) in the middle.

When liquid is added into the down pipe, it simply filles the thumper, raising liquid level, and the excess air pressure from that added liquid volume is simply releaved through the open air output port that leads to the PC.

If my explaination did not help, let me know and I’ll draw a picture of what I just tried to explain.

Otis

[jon1163]

No I understand the bypass and I think that's a great idea. But I was talking about was the fill Port going into the thumper. If you're bypassing then there would not be any need it seems to leave your Thumper empty until Midway through the run. If your thumper is being filled though from that top Port then as you fill the thumper the pressure of the column of water inside the supper, column b, seems like it would negate or overpower the pressure from the inlet of the port, column a.

[OtisT]

No I understand the bypass and I think that's a great idea. But I was talking about was the fill Port going into the thumper. If you're bypassing then there would not be any need it seems to leave your Thumper empty until Midway through the run. If your thumper is being filled though from that top Port then as you fill the thumper the pressure of the column of water inside the supper, column b, seems like it would negate or overpower the pressure from the inlet of the port, column a.

OK, I see the confusion. two points fo clarification. First, the practice I just read about involved adding a flavored liquid (they were using frozen punch) to the thumper but only after Heads were removed, so the thumper is not empty to start. They run with thumper until the heads are gone and the hearts come, then they add the flavored juice. They explained this practice saying there is no sense wasting some of the flavor on something that won't make the cut.

Second, your diagram is missing the vapor out port of your thumper, which is open to the atmosphere through your PC. If you add that to your picture, you can see where pressure is released when filling from the down tube. You put one gallon of liquid in, and one gallon of air escapes out your PC. This feature is mainly interesting to me because I don't have a clean out port on my thumper, so everything goes in/out through the same 2" hole.

Otis

[OtisT]

Epic Fail of my latest thumper head :-(

The new thumper head worked, mechanically, through all the phases of a distillation run. It did not serve the intended purpose though, of making foreshot extraction easier and simpler. Here is the issue:

The problem I did not foresee was that my foreshots would condense in my thumper attachment arm, long before it ever gets near my condenser. Even though all my plumbing is canted slightly down hill the entire run, the foreshots pooled up in all the little joints along the way and it took some time before I began seeing any form of steady drip even after I know vapors were rising. If I did not already know the approximate power settings for pulling foreshots on my rig, I think I would have been really frustrated trying to find the power sweet spot for pulling fores. So while I could make this work, it really makes the foreshot process a PITA. I don't think I will be using this head again, and will simply insert the thumper after foreshots are gone. Maybe I can find a new use for the parts?

On a positive note: Testing of the liquid filling port on my thumper w/o a clean out port was a big success. For any thumper w/o a separate cleanout port, I will be adding this little feature to my basic thumper head.

Otis

[jon1163]

very nice. Thanks for the update and for documenting the experimentation

[Runamuckr]

Hi Otis,

Question about your dimroth condenser.....

Aside from the picture showing the cap/coil removed, it appears you leave the cap un-soldered in your other pictures, assuming for cleaning reasons. Or your just that good at soldering
You experience any issues with vapor escaping from the cap? Any type of temporary seal applied to allow for disassembly? Cant say I've ever trusted a "push fit" on anything besides cooling water hoses.
If it is in fact soldered, what is your process for cleaning?

I'd like to build one for the compact-ness of design, and if the cap/coil is removable, even better. My liebig works just fine, but if I can get rid of the 40 inch stick, and have something perform just as well, while using up some spare copper collecting dust, it just seems like nothing but positives can come of this.

Thanks in advance.

[OtisT]

Hi runamuckr

Your reason for wanting to make one of these is the same reason I had in mind when I designed it, to have something compact so that I would not be tripping on my liebig. I found this design to be just as (more?) efficient than a shotgun of the same size/footprint and is a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to make myself.

The cap is left unsoldered to the column section, and slips on/off with a little twisting motion. The coil I/O tubes are soldered to the cap. I pull the cap/coil assembly out after each use for a rinse (scrub if I had a puke) and to allow it to dry inside before storage. It’s easy to get to all the internal parts of this for cleaning. I have not had one issue with vapor leak on this joint on the PC. I don’t think much vapor even reaches the upper section area where vapor may condense and cause a leak.

I have a similar coil in my main fractioning column. When I use that column for stripping or pot stilling I remove the coil and place a copper cap on top, just like the one used for the PC. This identical type of joint, with a bit more pressure applied to it from pushing the pot still hard, will weep a little at times. I fixed this by simply putting a few wraps of PTFE tape around the very tip of the column before sliding the cap on. Never hade a vapor leak after applying some tape. So, I guess if the PC ever does develop a vapor leak problem I would add tape to it too that would address the issue.

Otis

[Runamuckr]

Awesome!

Thanks!

I'll keep the PTFE tape in mind. I use it on my unions to the thumper. I was thinking the same about not much vapor making its way to the very top, but I've been wrong before.

May try and run 2" all the way through instead of the union between condenser and column. Or does the dimroth need a bit of velocity created by the choke point between the condenser and column? I'd drop to 1" at the output of the PC, unless, again, smaller is beneficial?
I can use 2" tri-clamps to meet my tear down/storage needs.

Thanks again Otis.
Time to play with the torch!

[OtisT]

... May try and run 2" all the way through instead of the union between condenser and column. Or does the dimroth need a bit of velocity created by the choke point between the condenser and column? I'd drop to 1" at the output of the PC, unless, again, smaller is beneficial?

There is no need for/benefit from the choke point. A larger vapor path would be a slight improvement by reducing pressure in the boiler. I am using a 3/4” union and vapor path because it matches a lot of other equipment I swap around. I use that same condenser with my 2” VM fractioning column, coming off of the 3/4” VM gate valve.

Otis

[Runamuckr]

Just wanted to update on this dimroth idea.

Fabulous!!

I did away with the "modular" part of the design, and soldered all but the cap with the coil.
I love it! I get a hotter product then I'm used to but no biggie. I run on propane, and have to run so low that my flame barely stays lit. Good and bad all at same time I guess. I'm insulated with a drum "jacket" so to say over my keg so I'm sure that has some effect as well. But man this thing is nice. Compact, can run fast as hell if I don't mind the hot product, and a pencil stream all but puts my flame out. I have a closed system for cooling water, so some tweaking to that to keep my water a little cooler, but damn this thing is nice. Not sure why I didn't build it in the first place.

Thanks for the help Otis!

[shadylane]

That's a fine job Otis
Dimroth product condensers are kinda rare around here
Now that you've done such an excellent job
Maybe others will give it a try

[OtisT]

Runamuckr,
I’m glad your build went well and you like the design too. I would love to see a picture of your build, if you would not mind posting it here.

You hit on the only challenge with this design, which is warm output at high power. My output will stay cool up to 3500 watts or so, and will knock down all 5500 watts with warm to hot output. I decided not to fix this because I’m OK with warm output on a strip, and my pot still spirit runs are well below 3500 watts so that’s never a problem. If I wanted to get cold output at higher power, I have a design idea to fix the issue that like this design, is cheep and simple to implement if you have good soldering skills. I would wrap and solder a short section of 1/4” soft copper tubing around either the 1/2” output spout or even the lower section of the 2” dimroth’s coil. I would run my cooling water through the external wrap tubing before going into my dimroth. It would not take much, just a few wraps, to make that lower section cool.

I’ve not built one on a dimroth, but I did something similar on the outside of a liebig when I needed a small second condenser. Here is a picture of that concept. In this picture, the external tube has product running through it and uses the liebig ‘s jacket to cool both the internal VP as well as product in the external coil.

Example of an external 2nd condenser

The soldering is a bit tricky. That copper wrap needs to be held tight to what it is wrapped around while soldering to ensure good contact and minimal gaps for the solder to fill. It requires good surface prep and the main trick to soldering this well is torch/heat management, specifically not overheating. You need the copper to cool below solder melt temp soon after removing the torch or soldering one section could unsolder another section. It takes a really light touch with the torch and is not forgiving if you overheat it.

Anyway, I’m glad your happy with the dimroth design.

Otis

[OtisT]

Thanks for the kind words Shadylane.

Yes, I think this is a good simple and cheep choice for someone not able to build/solder a shotgun but wants the compact performance.

I have another build tip for anyone building one of these, and I may as well put it in this message.

Soldering the copper coil tubes to the cap requires holes drilled in the cap to be close to the OD of the soft copper tubing. Filling the gap with solder can be tricky if the gap is too big. To help fill that gap and to add a little extra mechanical strength to the solder joint, I add a small copper ring to each joint. The ring needs to be prepped (sanded) so solder sticks to it well.

Showing rings to improve joint strength.

Thanks again Shady
Otis.

[LWTCS]

I’m want to add a vapor bypass valve to my thumper head, so I can bypass the thumper for pulling foreshots then engage the thumper once I am past the foreshots. After a few recent runs, I have decided That I want to eliminate the need for shutting down and swapping out parts during this changeout process.

I have searched for similar solutions and have found nothing positive or negative on the subject. Just wondering if I am a progressive thinking stiller or perhaps I am about to do something others have tried and have given up on because it don’t work? Any feedback you have would be appreciated.

I have a three way ball valve on order for this modification and have all the copper parts for the plumbing. Once that valve arrives I’ll post some dry-fit pics of the solution for feedback.

Otis

It has been done and your thinking is totally valid.

If you add a 3 way valve and send your heads cut to the "left" with a dedicated PC, you can completely keep any undesirable notes out of your finished product PC located on the right,,,,,if you see my meaning?

[LWTCS]

Also eliminates the need for "shootin".

[LWTCS]

Also, if you had a column on your primary kettle with a valve at the base of your column that would allow you to send vapor to your thumper or vapor straight up the column, you could squeeze the heads cut down good and tight with the column. Then send the heads to the "left".
After the cut, kill power, drain the plates, then fire and send vapor to the product side of your system. If you see my meaning?

[LWTCS]

Here is an iteration,,but without the dedicated PC positioned on the "left".

A 3 way valve at the top of the column to direct heads to a dedicated heads PC would completely keep any heads the operator wanted isolated from the finished product,,,out of the finished product.
But as you can see the 3 way valves allow for all kinds of flexibility.

[OtisT]

Larry, thanks for all the input. Lots to comment on here, and all good. You are correct in that nothing really is new. No matter what you think of, someone has already done it.

Column to Thumper/Pot run
I really like your idea of switching from column (for heads compression) to a Thumper or even direct to a PC for pot stilling after heads compression. I have been planning my next personal still design and will have to consider this concept and how it could fit into my plans.

I do have plans for a second special use condenser in mind, though the application is a bit different than what you wrote. My idea is for a dedicated Foreshots condenser directly off of the main boiler. Just a little liebig or similar that has very little mass to heat up, so squeezing out those fores at low power withought having to heat up an entire column is possible, and none of that stuff would enter a column, Thumper or PC. It would be easy to do, and my only concern with that setup would be the need to watch power closely to ensure I don’t overpower it before switching over to the main column, Thumper, or main PC.

Combo Still
Thanks for sharing that design plan. I’m still playing with plans for my next personal big (for me) still build. As we discussed a few months back, I really like your parallel column design and that is definately in the plan for my build, to deal with my height limitation. I am planning a 3” plated column + a 3” packed column in parallel off of the same boiler. (Maybe 4” since I likely won’t want to build another still for myself after all I invest in it). In addition to having a bypass directly to the main PC for pot stilling, I have a small dedicated PC penciled into the plan for Foreshots extraction (reasons mentioned above). There were no plans for including a Thumper bypass option, but after your comments and looking at the Thumper plans you shared, I think I should also consider what additional plumbing I would need to handle adding a bypass system to a thumper(s). I was already calling my design a MOAS, mother of all stills, for it’s overly complex design, so why not add a Thumper bypass system to what I have in mind?

Thanks again for all the info, comments, and feedback. I really respect the work you do. It was great meeting you and seeing your stuff up close at last years distiller event in Portland.

Regards.
Otis

[LWTCS]

I think a small dedicated condenser tied to the kettle is a great idea.
You're correct that with the commensurate amount of power, you'll not have to spend a bunch of energy heating the column.
I reckon the column would do a superior job of squeezing/compressing heads. But the time needed to do so would likely add time to the operation.
More fermentation buckets worked into your rotation would easily keep you ahead of any production curve the column would bring to the table if you factor in time spent distilling over the course of a year for example ,,imo.

[Runamuckr]

Thanks Otis.

I considered a short liebig as the take off to cool things down a bit. I'm confident what drips off the coil is cold, its the heat transfer in the copper sleeve that heats it back up. the T is about 5 inches from the column, and the sleeve of 2 inch that houses the coil is only about 6 inches. theres roughly 4 inches from the end of the coil to the reducer at the bottom of the condenser housing. if that makes sense. I used a 1 inch pipe for take off as that's what I had. about 6 inches long. Didn't see any down side to it, unless I missed something. Total column height is 28 inches including the elbow, for no other reason then I needed the height for take off purposes. 2 inch pipe all the way through. I'll try to get some pictures up, including my failed attempts at making the coil. I broke down and bought a used one from a friend. Believe he got it from Olympic, its got the vent in the top, coil is just shy of 8 inches.

My soldering skills are novice at best so not sure I'd tackle the solderd spiral just yet. I'm not real concerned with hot distillate, and haven't had any steam escape so I may just leave it alone and run with it.

I'm most impressed with the amount of flame I need to run. I couldn't run at a drip rate if I wanted to, the flame would go out. Perhaps if I removed the insulating jacket on the keg to promote heat loss, but that just seems counter productive. Adding the jacket( 55 gallon drum, rests on top of keg with a 1 inch gap at the floor) cut my propane usage almost in half. I needed about a 1/2 inch flame to run the same with the liebig. With the dimroth set up, theres barely a tiny blue ball on the holes of the burner. I'm ok with that.

Flavor seems unaffected, comparing to past runs, run may be a bit faster but nothing to get too excited about. Its the 4 foot liebig removed from the equation that's the winner, as well as the decrease in fuel.

I've run this directly on my boiler as well as on my thumper( using the input/out put through the same hole method) and it runs great either set up.
As I said earlier, I'd like to address my cooling water as it still heats up quick. Its closed loop, 12 gallon tank, I've got a 55 gallon plastic drum I might try, but was hoping to keep it a bit more compact. I'd also like it to stay silent, so I want to try and avoid fans/radiator set up if possible. Plan to play with some frozen jugs, maybe a coil in a cooler filled with ice.

PS.
Just when I figured I was done soldering for a while, I read about a second column/condenser to get rid of fores/heads before switching to the main or thumper.

[Sunshineer]

Great build Ottis and even better thread thank you for all the good information and input.

[LunaDogFever707]

Any updates on this?

[OtisT]

Sorry, nothing new on my thumper. I’m in a stillin holding pattern until summer. I hope to get back in the shop then.

Otis