Small AG batches to charge thumper

[Runamuckr]

Sadly, I don't have the room to mash gallons and gallons of grains. Yet.

Coincidentally, I've no problem storing gallons of stripin' runs

I've yet to find anything on here to tell me otherwise, with the exception of the grand scale some of you guys mash at. But...
I'm considering making small 1-2 gallon batches of AG to charge my thumper with, and running some of the stripped stuff through it. When I strip, I typically pull a pint or two of good hearts for drinking. I don't strip very fast, usually strip with the thumper. The rest is collected with the intent to run again. Usually used for experiments with thumper flavoring.

I charge a pony keg(7.75 gal) with 5-6 gallon washes. My thumper is a 5 gal keg (tall 1/6 keg). Thumper is charged with 1-1.5 gal of liquid. spear is 1/2 inch from bottom, capped, with about a dozen small holes.

If any of that matters.

Any reason I can't fill the thumper with a small AG ferment and run some stripped UJSSM through it?? I get decent flavor with juices, macerations, and such. Any reason wash in the thumper won't produce the same results??

That being said....

The recipe development part of all this: I'll read a bit more to come up with amounts, but any issues scaling down quaker oats, malted wheat, honey malt, maybe some caramel malt, down to say 2 gallon batch size???

I've played with some oats in my UJSSM. I find it pretty appealing. I'd like to play with some of the malts out there as well. Is it a waste to scale down and mash small amounts??

[still_stirrin]

...Any reason I can't fill the thumper with a small AG ferment and run some stripped UJSSM through it??... Any reason wash in the thumper won't produce the same results??

No reason. Do it.

...any issues scaling down quaker oats, malted wheat, honey malt, maybe some caramel malt, down to say 2 gallon batch size???... Is it a waste to scale down and mash small amounts??

The waste is only your time. But if you have plenty of that, then go for it.

One thing to consider when making multiples of mashes is the potential for variability of your processes. So, not all things will be equal, unless controlled with lab grade precision. But the “flip side” is the potential for added complexity of the finished product simply because of small variations of the mash batch to batch.

So, in the end...why worry about it? Just do it.
ss

[jonnys_spirit]

The one thing I would be careful with is overfilling your thumper.

I’m not sure how much extra volume a 10% wash/mash would take on to get up to temp when the boiler is charged with typical 40%abv low wines but I’ll be experimenting with that also soon so starting further and more specific research now.

Cheers !
-jonny

[Runamuckr]

Good points, much appreciated.

The inconsistencies from batch to batch is mainly why I pull a pint or two from each strip run. While I've been acceptably close, I've yet to come up with 2 of the same. even when recipe is followed to the T. Discovering those differences, while baffling, is part of the fun. In the beginning, I attributed it to my cuts, while a factor, more reading revealed theres just to many variables in the kitchen, backyard, garage, mouth, tongue, or what ever to repeat something exactly, unless, like you said, I've got a full on lab at my disposal.

As for flooding the thumper, I've charged it with as much as 2 gallons of water, haven't had a problem yet. I've kept any "alcohol" charge to 1 gallon. Havent flooded anything yet, but the chance is a factor in what ever I'm doing. The sound tells me it fills, the tone of the thump changes. My spear is full of holes so once its all equalized the thump is minimal. But its a friggin gattling gun in the beginning. Very first run was quite the site/sound as I had a few friends hanging out. They all evacuated the area as if someone just pulled the pin on a grenade.

So the consensus is do it. As I expected, but wanted to toss it out there for some feedback.

[Runamuckr]

So heres what I've gotten my hands on,

White wheat malt, caramel wheat malt, and some honey malt.

If I've understood my reading, The wheat malts will do my converting, and the honey malt will impact flavor.
My intent is this.

1 lb oats (quaker)
1/2 lb wheat malt
1/4 lb caramel wheat
1/4 lb honey malt
1 gal water (maybe 1.5 if things get thick)
Have a choice between DADY or bakers yeast. Would prefer to use the DADY.

I'll hold all this about 155-160 for at least an hour then let cool to pitching temp.
I plan to ferment on the grain, though I won't be dumping the grains in the thumper. I've got no way to get in there to clean as I'm still using the 2 inch port on the keg.

Any issues with my grain bill>
Seems 2 lb per gallon is the got to.
I'm not to concerned with conversion on this as I'll be running low wines through it. Any conversion is just a bonus, and a learning experience for some AG mashing.
I'll be going this route this weekend if I don't hear otherwise from the more experienced on here.

Any input always welcome!

[still_stirrin]

...I'll hold all this about 155-160 for at least an hour then let cool to pitching temp...

I recommend you lower the saccharification temperature to 145-150*F instead. You’ll get more product out of your still if you do.
ss

[StillerBoy]

The one thing I would be careful with is overfilling your thumper.

In agreement with JS on this..

There is a big different in thumper filling up behavior between using water, using low wine, and using a 10% mash.. using low wine in boiler and thumper, the thumper come up to temp quite fast with little addition volume added to the thumper.. using low wine and mash, it will take a few extra minutes, and it those few minutes that add the extra volume to the thumper.. similarly, using a 10% mash/wash in the boiler and thumper, it will take an extra 8 or more minutes to come up to temp, and that where the thumper size become important.. also power input makes a different in behavior..

So by keeping notes of your combinations, you will learn if your thumper is of proper size for the task at hand..

Mars

[Sharks_n_danger]

...I'll hold all this about 155-160 for at least an hour then let cool to pitching temp...

I recommend you lower the saccharification temperature to 145-150*F instead. You’ll get more product out of your still if you do.
ss

Though 155-160 would be a good strike temp in order to hit still_stirrin’s recommendation for saccharification temp.

[Runamuckr]

The one thing I would be careful with is overfilling your thumper.

In agreement with JS on this..

There is a big different in thumper filling up behavior between using water, using low wine, and using a 10% mash.. using low wine in boiler and thumper, the thumper come up to temp quite fast with little addition volume added to the thumper.. using low wine and mash, it will take a few extra minutes, and it those few minutes that add the extra volume to the thumper.. similarly, using a 10% mash/wash in the boiler and thumper, it will take an extra 8 or more minutes to come up to temp, and that where the thumper size become important.. also power input makes a different in behavior..

So by keeping notes of your combinations, you will learn if your thumper is of proper size for the task at hand..

Mars

Understandable.

Is it safe to assume that charging my thumper with just water would take the longest to heat up, thus filling the most?? I havent compared heat up times between a low wine charge Vs a water charge. But i have.....

10% wash or 30% low wines in my pot, and water in my thumper(typically a gallon) have never posed an issue with flooding. Though by the sounds of it, id say its a good 2/3 full. Vs the sound when charged with any sort of alcohol content(heads/tails, or any macerations in hearts) at 30%. My boiler is 7.75 gallons, never charged with more then 6 gallons and typically closer to 5(I ferment 6 gallon batches). My thumper is 5.2 gallons and never charged with more then a gallon of liquid.
If i'm pumping 4 gallons into my thumper before it comes online, causing it to flood, I'm driving way to fast, and/or have major heat loss problems with my thumper. (its wrapped with reflectix) Regardless of what the thumper is charged with, I shouldn't have to boil 90% of my boiler charge into my thumper. There'd be nothing left in the boiler to finish the run.

Please don't take this as me being ungrateful, or disregarding any sort of educating input. I've been reading on this site for about 4 years now. Stillin' for 3. The above experiences have been repeated dozens of times, just never put an AG wash in my thumper Obviously, I'm not going to charge my 5 gallon thumper with 4 gallons of wash, however, I can totaly understand why it needs to be said given some of the things I've read on here over the years.

I'll update as I progress with this.

[Runamuckr]

...I'll hold all this about 155-160 for at least an hour then let cool to pitching temp...

I recommend you lower the saccharification temperature to 145-150*F instead. You’ll get more product out of your still if you do.
ss

Though 155-160 would be a good strike temp in order to hit still_stirrin’s recommendation for saccharification temp.

My thought exactly after SS's sugestion.

[Runamuckr]

Ok so heres the update on the first go at this....

Heated my water to 160, dumped in grains, settled in at 151. I let that sit about 2 hours, temp was 144 and smelled and tasted amazing.
Not testing, no iodine, gravity, nothing. Remember, I'm more after flavor then alch as this is going in my thumper to bubble stripped UJSSM through. So while something converted, I can't tell you how much, how efficient, or my starting or final gravity.
At 144 degrees, I cooled to 90, pitched a tsp of daddy yeast, and let it be. Never really got much activity out of the air lock. I suspect my cheap 2 gallon bucket wasnt air tight. Check it at 4 hours and punched the cap down. I punched the cap down once more several hours later then left it alone. Check it in 4 days and most the cap had sunk, but still had a layer of grains at the top. Day 6, no more floating grains, and I serioulsy considered not even putting this in the thumper as it looked and tasted so damn good as it was, but I stayed the course.

I wrung out the grains, and rinsed them with a half gallon of water and added that to thumper as well.
Charged my pot and thumper and away we went. Nothing odd about the run, wasnt expecting there to be, everything progressed as normal.

I've played with oats in UJSSM ferments before, and enjoyed the effect, which is why I wanted to try this. My grain bill for this small ferment included honey malt, and caramel malt, along with wheat malt, and of course oats. The honey, caramel, and wheat, I never used in any of my sugar ferments before. Or ever for that matter.

I'm liking this very much! Theres alot going on, and it all seems to play beautifully together. Honey isn't exactly honey, but it adds sweet. Caramel is there, and almost a bit toasty. Can't quite place the wheat, think it keeps the "whiskey" flavor, maybe even a bit earthy. The best part, its buttery, and smooth. Definitely coats the mouth.

I havent blended anything yet, its only aired for about 36 hours, and then sealed up. It remains in its collection jars at this point. I'm hoping some tails turn out nice as the beginning of those tasted like they might be full of goodness.

I'll update more once ive cut/blended and had some other samplers thoughts, but as someone who doesn't have the ability for big all grain batches (at the moment), this may just be my ticket.
OR its going to make me find a way to do AG ferments

[Runamuckr]

Thought I'd give some update on this as I've got several runs done with interesting(to me) results.

The quick and easy update.... TANNINS

The drawn out explanation/experience ...

I been fermenting these small batches of AG on the grain, used the same ingredients, though I have played with the amounts a bit keeping a 2 pound minimum and 2.5 pound maximum per one gallon of water. The biggest issue for me is I cant always run right when its done fermenting, however the 3 times I HAVE been able to do that, netted me very different results. The small bathes ferment out in about 5 - 7 days. Some times its several days before I get around to running it. My UJSM doesn't seem to care to sit for a few weeks after the yeasties have done their part. Or at least theres no major impact on flavor that I can tell. This AG on the other hand, can seem to produce some un appealing flavors if it sets to long. If I get to it quick, its color is mild, and the stilled result is quite good, If I cant get to it and it sits, its dark, the stilled result is palletable, with much less palletable quantity. Heads and tails are strong and plentiful. Also, squeezing the grains, regardless of how soon or late after its finished imparts a real earthy note that I personally dont care for. Combination yeast and tannins??
I've stored up all the heads/tails from these runs, may be something special after an all fients run.

I've only run 2 "off the grain" ferments and like those much better, easier to rack too. Hearts are a bit bigger, and earlier tails has some good flavors to spice up the hearts if needed. I've also settled on more oats, less caramel malt. Caramel malt is dark, while the hint of caramel is nice, I think the dark grain imparts a bit of an earthyness that I'm not after at this point, though good to know where I can find it should I want to. The off the grain fermants are slower as well, I don't add nutes, maybe a good time to play with those.

Just thought I'd give an update now that i've gotten a home distiller education on tannins and how they effect what we're doing.

[StillerBoy]

Just thought I'd give an update now that i've gotten a home distiller education on tannins and how they effect what we're doing.

Thanks for the update

Mars

[Corsaire]

Any updates? Did you oak any?
I like the idea of the mixed ferments ran at the same time.
In my mind it saves you from dealing with mashing corn porridge but using specialty malts for additional flavor. Interesting.

[Runamuckr]

Any updates? Did you oak any?
I like the idea of the mixed ferments ran at the same time.
In my mind it saves you from dealing with mashing corn porridge but using specialty malts for additional flavor. Interesting.

I've been running pretty much the same. No oaking as I like to keep everything clear. I'm quite fond of the product it makes and haven't played much with the specialty malts. And I've stopped using the caramel malt. Just didn't care for the flavor. I've also stopped fermenting on the grain for reasons listed above. The end result is best described as a white product with a whiskey kick. Or so those I share it with seem to call it. I get a lot of comments about "sweet shine, with a whiskey finish". The sweet isn't sugar sweet, and doesn't taste like honey, its fun to listen to people try to pin point what it is. And the oats just smooth everything out nicely.

I should point out that I don't always use the thumper, sometimes I'll add the small AG batch to the boiler on a spirit run. Seems to produce the same product, if maybe a bit more pronounced flavor. Though I think thats just a placebo effect.

I like the ease of doing it this way. I can strip a bunch of UJSM, pull a pint or two as is if I want or let it all go to the spirit run, then make a small batch of AG to use on the spirit run. I'm a bit confined on space, and adding a small fermenter to the mix was a lot easier to deal with. I also don't run my fients more then 3 times. After the third pass through the still heads and tails get dumped. But I do use some heads/tails while blending from each spirit run. Theres good flavor there.

I'll play with AG ingredients at some point, just enjoying whats coming off the still too much to experiment right now

[Runamuckr]

Just to add a bit of an update....

My grain bill is the same, I've just increased my amount to net me 3 gallons. And I've stopped charging my thumper with the all grain wash. Heres what I'm doing at the moment, and like the results very much.

3 gallons of all grain, I ferment this off the grain. After mashing, those "spent" grains go into a bucket as a UJSM ferment. I add some corn to this, sugar, and let it roll. This ferment gets stripped, I use the grains for 3 generations, then replace them with fresh "spent" grains from my next 3 gallon all grain mash. When I have enough to do a spirit run, I put the 3 gallons of all grain ferment in with the spirit run, instead of using water to bring my proof down for my spirit run. Damn tasty!

Why???

Mainly as a way to stretch my grains a bit. That was the driving factor for the experiment. I don't rinse or squeeze the all grain, so I feel I can recover a bit this way. Also, the strip then spirit method seems to knock off the earthy/tannin edge I feel I was getting from fermenting on the grain.

I love my thumper, and plan to use it for other flavoring experiments. But I can skip the thumper set up, tear down, cleaning time for what I run the most often.

Whiskey, scotch, burbon, call it what you want, its just damn good shine to me. For those of you that do all grain, I recommend trying your spent grains in a UJSM style type of ferment.