Wtf happened

[CuWhistle]

1. This has nothing to do with yeast.
2. Fridge will not cause readings you describe so there must be another explanation.
3. You won't get the same proof for the whole run. Start 85, finish 35 will give you near 60 for the whole collection.
Question. How many hydrometer do you have?
You can't use the hydrometer you use to measure specific gravity to measure proof and ABV. You appear to say you did.

[NZChris]

After it sat out and came up in temp, 60 proof.

Check that the paper in the hydrometer hasn't slipped.

If it hasn't and there is no possibility that a third party raided the jar, then the liquor went into the jar at 60 proof.

What you need to work out is why that happened and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Is the missing alcohol in another jar in the distillery, poured down the drain, never there in the first place, did you mess up a dilution calculation, pour it into a jar that had water in it thinking it was liquor? How much had you drunk? Did you test the jar to get your 85 proof, or was that just an assumption based on what you had measured at the spout during the run?

[CuWhistle]

The measurement at 5 from the fridge was clearly wrong. If you just measured it at 60 at the correct temperature then a reading of 5 is simply not possible.

I have a hydrometer that I use to measure everything as well as a thermometer. I take OG's, FG's, and proof readings always.

This could be a part of the problem. You can't measure proof with a standard hydrometer.

A standard hydrometer measures specific gravity or the amount of dissolved solids (sugars) in the wash or mash compared to water, with water being 1.000. This will measure the potential alcohol in solution if it is fermented out fully. Most of these will have several scales, being the actual SG reading, the potential % alcohol and the amount of sugar / volume liquid. Mine is graduated in Grams / litre. I don't know if you can get oz / gallon.

To measure your proof in the distilled spirit you require a Proof and Tralle hydrometer. This is a different device that measures your proof (0 - 200) or your ABV % (0 - 100).

You can't have a hydrometer that you use to measure everything.

[zapata]

To be technically accurate, which I think is useful because technical understanding prevents these mistakes. Both hydrometers and alcometers (aka proof and tralle hydrometers) do actually measure the same thing, density. It's just the scales and units that are different. Wcell to be even more accurate specific gravity is a unitless measurement existing only as a number since it is a ratio of the density of the fluid to the density of pure water the units cancel out and disappear.

A weighted glass tube can't actually measure alcohol content directly, any use of an alcometer is an inferred reading taken via density. This distinction rarely matters practically once you know what tool to use when, but could help one understand the things that can throw off an alcometer, temperature being obvious by this point, but high levels of any compound other than water and ethanol for another example. Adding flavorings or sugar to spirits will throw off an alcometer just as much as not correcting for temperature.

Of course this is not to say you don't need both hydrometers and alcometers in this hobby, because you absolutely do (and a good verified accurate thermometer too).

[CuWhistle]

My point to a novice in the novice thread is that you can't use the one single calibrated instrument to measure both things. They both work on the same principle but, as far as I'm aware, are not interchangeable. This could be what he's tried to do, or maybe not.

[Frosty36]

The measurement at 5 from the fridge was clearly wrong. If you just measured it at 60 at the correct temperature then a reading of 5 is simply not possible.

I have a hydrometer that I use to measure everything as well as a thermometer. I take OG's, FG's, and proof readings always.

This could be a part of the problem. You can't measure proof with a standard hydrometer.

A standard hydrometer measures specific gravity or the amount of dissolved solids (sugars) in the wash or mash compared to water, with water being 1.000. This will measure the potential alcohol in solution if it is fermented out fully. Most of these will have several scales, being the actual SG reading, the potential % alcohol and the amount of sugar / volume liquid. Mine is graduated in Grams / litre. I don't know if you can get oz / gallon.

To measure your proof in the distilled spirit you require a Proof and Tralle hydrometer. This is a different device that measures your proof (0 - 200) or your ABV % (0 - 100).

You can't have a hydrometer that you use to measure everything.

The tools for measuring that I have are the standard hydrometer, which i take my gravity readings.
I also have a Proof and Tralle hydrometer, granted i didnt realize it was calibrated to a certain temp. Thermometer and graduated cylinder for readings.
I have a good understanding on how to use them (not a pro by any means, thats why im here) but my issue is just how the taste and strength seem to have dropped just from being chilled down. No one else in my house drinks (no kids). Once it sits out it comes up to 60 proof. Most likely my initial measurement was off and its always been 60 proof. But why oh why does it taste like apple water after i chill it. Maybe it really is just a bad reading and I blew it into something bigger lol. But i appreciate all the input and help guys. It's alot to learn and frustrating as hell sometimes but it's too much damn fun to give up.

[Frosty36]

After it sat out and came up in temp, 60 proof.

Check that the paper in the hydrometer hasn't slipped.

If it hasn't and there is no possibility that a third party raided the jar, then the liquor went into the jar at 60 proof.

What you need to work out is why that happened and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Is the missing alcohol in another jar in the distillery, poured down the drain, never there in the first place, did you mess up a dilution calculation, pour it into a jar that had water in it thinking it was liquor? How much had you drunk? Did you test the jar to get your 85 proof, or was that just an assumption based on what you had measured at the spout during the run?

Curious what you mean "paper slipped"?
No dilution was dont, didnt drink a drop, no water in the jars (they were dry). Went in at 60 proof, think it was a misread on my part saying it was 80

[still_stirrin]

...my issue is just how the taste and strength seem to have dropped just from being chilled down...

The answer has been given already....temperature affects taste and temperature affects density... ‘nuf said!

...No one else in my house drinks...

....that you KNOW about!

...It's a lot to learn... and frustrating as hell sometimes...

It’s getting that way for us too!

[still_stirrin]

...Curious what you mean "paper slipped"?

You know...when your “business” is done and you’re finishing the “paperwork”... a bad time for the “paper to slip”.

[zapata]

But why oh why does it taste like apple water after i chill it.
.

It's cold 30% abv low wines. "Apple water" is generous to what I'd expect it to taste like

[NZChris]

...Curious what you mean "paper slipped"?

Check it in water at 20 degrees. I have a Still Spirits proof hydrometer with a paper scale that has moved 3mm, rendering it next to useless.

[CuWhistle]

We seem to be confusing two distinctly different issues here Frosty36.

1) You probably got something out of whack with your readings. 85 and 5 just both appear to be completely wrong for a batch that is actually 60 proof. Even extreme temperature variations entered into the calculator on the parent site don't explain that, so how you reached those numbers is just unknown to all of us except you.

2) The issue of your apple water. You are saying that this batch appears to have no alcohol when drunk from the fridge but it reads 60 proof at calibrated temperature. This means it's 60 proof but doesn't taste like it when cold. That is probably correct. However, you also seem to be saying that this is different to previous batches. Perhaps they were actually stronger in Proof.

If this is the case then it may well have had something to do with the change in yeast. If your start and finish gravity readings were different then it could explain it. If they were the same then it's not the yeast.

It's probably time to put this one to bed and just move on paying attention to careful measurement.

BTW: Paper slip is if your paper / cardboard scale moves inside the glass tube of the hydrometer. It does happen and the thing is junk after that.

[Frosty36]

We seem to be confusing two distinctly different issues here Frosty36.

2) The issue of your apple water. You are saying that this batch appears to have no alcohol when drunk from the fridge but it reads 60 proof at calibrated temperature. This means it's 60 proof but doesn't taste like it when cold. That is probably correct. However, you also seem to be saying that this is different to previous batches. Perhaps they were actually stronger in Proof.

If this is the case then it may well have had something to do with the change in yeast. If your start and finish gravity readings were different then it could explain it. If they were the same then it's not the yeast.

It's probably time to put this one to bed and just move on paying attention to careful measurement.

BTW: Paper slip is if your paper / cardboard scale moves inside the glass tube of the hydrometer. It does happen and the thing is junk after that.

I think you hit it in the head with number 2. The previous batches were stronger so maybe it's just the fact that a such a low proof end up tasting like nothing after being chilled. Correct me if I'm wrong but you want a different OG and FG right?

"If your start and finish gravity readings were different then it could explain it. If they were the same then it's not the yeast."
Are you saying if they're the same, it's not the yeast bc the yeast did it's job?

The paper slip makes sense now too. Either way i think you're right. This one needs to die lol. I appreciate you guys sticking it out and helping me get some answers.

[CuWhistle]

I mean different readings between batches. If your pre and post ferment numbers were the same for all batches, then it wasn't a yeast issue. If the different batches had different readings, it might have been related to the change in yeast. Might have been! I don't know enough about what you actually did to say for sure.

[Frosty36]

Makes sense. All batches have read a little different bc ive been experimenting with different yeast to find the best one for apple. Either way, just gonna keep trying.

[SaltyStaves]

Makes sense. All batches have read a little different bc ive been experimenting with different yeast to find the best one for apple. Either way, just gonna keep trying.

Perhaps its more important to get some fundamentals in place before you start experimenting. The fact that you collected and drank the first distillation through your pot still and haven't uttered any words like 'Cuts' or 'Jars' (emphasis on the 's'), is a big red flag that should be addressed first.

When I set out to make Calvados, I looked at what the well regarded Calvados makers were doing. It certainly wasn't running everything down to 30% and then bottling it...

[CuWhistle]

So there you go frosty. Research Calvados and learn to make cuts in jars. Problem solved.

[Frosty36]

Just looked up Calvados on here....the research never ends lol. Some great tips and things to try though. Im still learning the cuts honestly. For my set up I know how much to throw off and then I do a little extra to be safe. Found an article on here that covers cuts more in depth so Im learning best i can.

[CuWhistle]

OK, sorry Frosty36. I was really meaning for you to take that comment literally. By all means learn cuts and jars. Put Calvados on hold for a little while.
Using the right number of collection jars of appropriate sizes and learning where to make your cuts is an important skill to master. The collection vessels will (or may) vary depending upon what you are running.

[Yummyrum]

Very true CuWhistle .

Thus may help visualise a typical collection and cuts operation
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=68702

[SaltyStaves]

Just looked up Calvados on here....the research never ends lol. Some great tips and things to try though. Im still learning the cuts honestly.

I didn't look up Calvados here. I looked at what long established french producers do. They are the experts.
Here, you'll get uninformed and poorly executed practices mixed in with the good. You will struggle to know which to ignore and which to follow. This is why the 'Tried and True' subforum is useful for beginners. Calvados is less popular, so be careful what advice you follow.

For my set up I know how much to throw off and then I do a little extra to be safe.

I'm not convinced. By now you should be realising that you need to be double distilling. That will probably have a significant impact on your current fermentation setup.
If your fermenter is only as big as your still, then you've got some upscaling to consider. You're going to want at least three times as much wash if you want to start cutting some decent product.

[Frosty36]

Thanks CuWhistle, the cuts are my main concern. Got a case of mini jars to try to get it right next time. The link you guys included makes visualizing a hell of alot easier.
I had no idea about the size of the wash vs the still size. I'm not looking to go into the 50gal, 100 gal or anything like that. But, an upscale does sound nice. Just for reference sake, if i have say 3 gallon still i need 6 gallons of wash?

On the calvado thing, I meant I read through this site to get an idea of what it was more so than getting info on making it. If i get back into it, I'll go to a good source like you said to and try it out.

[jog666]

Just for reference sake, if i have say 3 gallon still i need 6 gallons of wash?

If your still is 3 gallon total volume, Shoot for 2.5g charge of wash. Thats a fuzz over 80%. Either get several buckets or a small barrel or a brute trash can. Mash enough to get atleast three charges, around 7.5g in your case. Strip, collect then spirit.

To keep from getting overwhelmed, slowly add to the mash volume. Like if the run you just stripped came from 1 5g bucket, add one more maybe 2. If you have a bigger fermenter, double your mash. Slowly work up to a total volume that you can strip out in the time you have.

I started out with two 5g buckets, ramped up to I think 12 fairly fast & slowly worked back to 4 for a while before stopping. 4 worked great for me per week. Strip them & restart the mash. Then the week I would do a spirit run, the mash started the week before would just sit an extra week & not hurt anything.

[still_stirrin]

...if i have say 3 gallon still i need 6 gallons of wash?..

I shoot for 3 times the boiler charge for the ferment volume. So, with a 3 gallon boiler 2/3 filled per charge (2/3 x 3 = 2 gallons per charge), then you’d need to make a 6 gallon ferment ( 2 x 3 = 6 gallons). Simple math, right?

And here’s some more math. If your ferment OG is 1.074 and ferments completely to FG = 1.000, then the “potential” alcohol is (1.074 - 1.000) x 129 = 0.074 x 129 = 9.546 %ABV.

So, 6 gallons of ferment would have (6 gal x 9.546) / 100 = 0.573 gallons of alcohol (at 100%ABV, potentially).

But with a potstill, you’ll collect an average purity of 50%ABV for the run, so you’ll need enough jars for 0.573 x (100/50) = 1.156 gallons at 50 %ABV (average).

Therefore, your collection at an average of 50 %ABV would be 1.156 gallons x (3.785 liter per gallon) = 4.336 liters. Using 1/2 pint (375 ml) sized jars, you would need 4.336 / (375 / 1000) = 11.56 jars, or at least a dozen 1/2 pint jars.

Now keep in mind that these calculations are all somewhat theoretical, assuming complete fermentation and an average distillation collection process. But it should give you an understanding of what to expect from your ferment and from your still.

Double distilling would increase the average proof offstill (increase average purity), which would decrease the collected volume because the “potential” alcohol is still only 0.573 gallons (at the theoretical 100 %ABV).

Got it?
ss

edit - corrected gallons to liters equation.

[NZChris]

Unless you are using very high OG washes, the low wines from four stripping runs should fit back into the same still.

[Frosty36]

I think I got it SS...gonna have to read it a couple times but it does make sense. Where did you get the 100 from to divide?

"So, 6 gallons of ferment would have (6 gal x 9.546) / 100 = 0.573 gallons of alcohol (at 100%ABV, potentially). "

Also, sounds like I'm mashing at least 2 to 3 times, run a strip of each, collect everything (no cuts), combine and run a spirit run?

[still_stirrin]

I think I got it SS...gonna have to read it a couple times but it does make sense. Where did you get the 100 from to divide?

"So, 6 gallons of ferment would have (6 gal x 9.546) / 100 = 0.573 gallons of alcohol (at 100%ABV, potentially). "

Because —> 9.546 is “percent”, meaning it is actually —> 0.09546 = 9.546/100.

Also, because multiplication is “communitive”, (6x9.546)/100 is the same as 6x(9.546/100). (3rd grade math)

Also, sounds like I'm mashing at least 2 to 3 times, run a strip of each, collect everything (no cuts), combine and run a spirit run?

Yes, you want to ferment enough to charge your still 3 (or 4) times collecting the low wines from each stripping run. That should net you enough total low wines for a full charge for the spirit run. That’s the way it works out.

But if your fermenter is big enough to hold 3 boiler charges worth of mash, you can accomplish the mash and ferment at once rather than 3 separate times....”size matters”.

[Frosty36]

Got it! Fermenter is 6 gallons I believe.

[CuWhistle]

run a strip of each, collect everything (no cuts)

Whether you do or don't follow this advice doesn't really matter in the long run. It is just what I do, so for what it's worth, I always remove the first 1% volume of the boiler charge as waste product (foreshots) from each strip.

For example: from a 25 litre charge I remove 250 ml from each strip. It is relatively high % ABV cleaning alcohol / thinners / fire lighter or whatever other use you have for it.

I don't see the point in leaving it in for the spirit run to only have to boil it again and then remove it. Do it once it's done. It doesn't change anything other than to get your spirit run done a bit faster. The spirit run comes to the boil faster and you save the time it would take to extract it a second time. As a known waste product, why extract it, leave it in and then extract it again? This is not a "cut" as such since "cuts" refers to the distinctions between heads, hearts and tails in relation to what you keep to age and /or drink and what you don't. For my purposes it is just an efficiency measure.

If the recent musings on feints, and heads in particular, are anything to go by, the amount could easily be doubled. It will just make your spirit run heads cut smaller.

combine and run a spirit run?

After diluting to less than 40% / 80 Proof.

[NZChris]

For example: from a 25 litre charge I remove 250 ml from each strip. It is relatively high % ABV cleaning alcohol / thinners / fire lighter or whatever other use you have for it.

That seems rather excessive, so I won't be taking that advice. Just because something is a good idea, doesn't mean it's still a good idea if you double it. Also, how much foreshot it is wise to remove depends on what you are making, how fast you are running, still head design etc..