4 plate flute plans and build

[30xs]

As always, looking very nice 30xs.

Before applying finish, give a slight bit of stress to the parrot to confirm you're happy with the stiffness of that goose neck. I mention this as I was surprised at the lack of stiffness of the copper in my parrot. Granted, it's the thinnest wall cheap bastard copper I could get from the big box store, and I integrated a removable shelf to hold the jar (up to 800 ml). But I did connect a portion of my goose neck and I still feel I wish it were stiffer. If you don't hang mass off of it like I did and you are careful not to bump it, it'll likely be just fine (and it looks beautiful).

Took your advice and put a little piece in.

[Yummyrum]

Nice solutions on both accounts

[30xs]

I flattened out a couple 6” pieces of 1.5” copper and made a couple valve holders so that I could hang my valves on the rim of the keg but lift off for storage.

[30xs]

With the valve hangers in place I was able to run my plumbing. I have pieces to allow either top or bottom feed to the dephleg.

[30xs]

I started to finish this thing up and do a cleaning run a couple weeks ago when I found my little stream that I use for cooling water was dried up due to the lack of rain this summer. I’m in the process of putting together a radiator and fan setup over a reservoir. Anyways I cut the gaskets for the glass tonight and placed them in lightly. I was trying to search here and see what I should use to lubricate them to keep from damaging them when tightening them up. Would something like a coconut or vegetable oil work as it should be removed with the cleaning runs?

Also, what size reservoir should I use to not require water changing? My radiator is a 3 core Honda Civic radiator and will be using a box fan pulling air through it. I have a spare 20 gallon barrel I could use, if it will suffice?

I’m waiting on a few parts and fittings to arrive to finish up the radiator cooler setup.

[30xs]

Finally got back to the flute today. Water run I could fully load the top three plates with water, at full throttle. Backed it down to about 2400 watts and the top three still had water, only slightly lower depth. Killed all the water to get the steam throughout the system and had a few drips coming over within 3 minutes and steam escaping my vent holes within 6-7 minutes.

I know that OD had problems getting his bottom plates to load with a drop in tree, but with my open area and smaller holes I figured I would be ok. I did notice the bottom plate trying to bubble when it first started and once when I jumped it back to wide open after setting at 2400 watts for a few minutes. I know that water tension and alcohol tensions are different and getting the plate to load with water may be more difficult, but is it possible with a perf plate?

I’m still in the middle of a water run and have a vinegar run left to do before I move it inside for the sacrificial run.

[30xs]

Ok. I panicked a bit seeing that I was getting about a 1/4” of fluid on the bottom plate, but never enough to fill up the downcomer, hence no bubbles. I thought that it was a poor bottom plate fit. I shut down and soldered my plates in place where they were. I fired it back up with a light vinegar mix and tried again. Same results. I can still get about a 1/4” on the plate and never enough to fill the J trap for full function. Couldn’t get in to clean the Harris Stay Clean out through the sight glasses. Currently soaking in a strong citric acid mixture to try and clean the nooks and crannies. Then the plan is another water and another vinegar cleaning run. If anyone has another cleaning suggestion I’m all ears. Hoping that the cleaning runs can get it clean so I don’t have to mess with opening the sight windows again. I used up the last of the cork I had on hand last night making gaskets that didn’t survive the opening it back up to solder.

[DetroitDIY]

Hey there 30xs, sorry to hear of your problem.

Let me confirm a couple points: you were able to put in enough power to push the vapor up and into your “column system” (mass in); you were able to reflux effectively at your dephleg without any vapor escaping out of your “column system” (no mass out at top), and thus the upper plates stacked well and the fluid cascaded down to the lowest plate. But you couldn’t stack your lowest plate so the fluid was escaping out of your “column system” without stacking it. And you looked for leaks through all the seals and such and found nothing (substantial). And you’ve confirmed no vapor is sneaking past your dephleg.

If all that is true, it sounds like too much fluid is falling through your bottom perf plate. So you soldered the perimeter of the tree at the bottom plate to close off that potential leak path, but still insufficient fluid on the bottom plate.

It sounds to me like either your J trap is not working (are you sure the end of the curve of the “J” is higher than the top inside surface of the “U” at it’s lowest point? Actually, I would design in at least ¼” overlap at this to keep a good fluid “plug” there. If you’ve confirmed that, is your column and J trap straight, or leaning a bit to rob you of the fluid plug. If you’ve confirmed that, did you create more or larger holes in your bottom perf plate?

Regarding the reservoir size, I have a 44 gal can, filled to about 38-40 gallons, and it’s never enough. I run often about 3.0 kW power in, and have a decent size (industrial) AC radiator in the loop that seems to lower the return fluid temp about 10F, which really helps, but is never enough. I always seem to have a little hose adding at the top and a little hose draining at the bottom of my reservoir. If I didn’t want to have to do that and want to be able to set it and forget it, I would try daisy chaining (2) 55 gallon drums, or investing in a tote, but that’s more floor space than I can yield to my reservoir. Plus I would have to explain it to my wife…

Good luck,
DetroitDIY

[Yummyrum]

Your J trap looks to have a turn-up of at least 3/4” ..... mines the same and it works fine .

Have you run it with alc yet or are you still just doing vinegar / steam runs ?

Alc will run very differently . Also if you can “prime” you bottom J trap before you start , you’ll at least know that you are not getting any vapour bypass up it .

I would also try giving it a whole lot of power so you have an almost overwhelming amount of reflux . That will help quickly fill the traps if they aren’t primed .Once all the plates are right then back the power off .

I agree with detroit about cooling resevour size . As these are coolant management stills having a rising coolant temp throughout the run will mean a lot of twiddling to keep it sweet .

[30xs]

Yes I was able to maintain full reflux through the dephleg mostly, an occasional few drips here and there. I was finally able to get it to load on the vinegar run by priming the J trap. The J trap does have a 3/4” height above, but I couldn’t push enough fluid mass to fill it above. 180 1/16” holes were draining while vapor was coming up through the J. One odd thing was when I killed the dephleg running 4500 watts the plates stayed loaded? I even pulled the return line off the dephleg to make sure there was no water flow. At 5500 watts it took about 40 minutes to collect.

Fast forward. I loaded the boiler with some junk that was used in another prior cleaning run. Brought it to half boiler with the hose and it had some floating green stuff, probably copper salts? Being that it was in the boiler already I decided to test run the setup and could do a second cleaning later if need be. Plates loaded fine on alcohol, but trying the 2400 watts that everyone else seemed to use flooded the middle two plates fairly badly and the bottom would flair up worse than them. I’m currently running about 11.5 amps, 1300 watts, according to the cheap Chinese gauge. Probably about 3/8” fluid on the plate with the bubbles overtaking the 3/4” downcomer. About an 1/8 turn out on the needle valve gives me a nice drip, drip, drip.

I was under the impression that the bath would be 3/4” and the bubbles should be about half glass. As soon as I try to add any heat to it the bottom window gets covered with bubbles? Maybe once I try kicking up my takeoff it’ll get a little better?

[30xs]

So the learning to drive run left me scratching my head a bit. 13-1500 watts gave me a takeoff rate of about 2 quarts per hour at about 182 proof. The only way I could raise heat was to lower the water to the dephleg and proof suffered. Time to start a ferment and see what it looks like with a wash in it.

On a positive note. Running with the low wattage I was able to run over 2.5 hours off of a 20 gallon barrel, filled about 15 gallon, with the radiator/fan setup I was using. Water was barely lukewarm coming out of the radiator even after a full power strip of the last jar that saw the proof drop from 160 to 70 within a quart.

[DetroitDIY]

That's good to hear. There's definitely a learning curve with a new rig, and everyone's is different. You have 180 1/16" holes in a 4" pipe. I have 317 1/16" holes in a 4" pipe. So right there, I'm going to need a lot more power to keep my fluid bath up than you, and heat my reservoir faster, yadda, yadda. And there's probably 20+ other differences between your still and mine, or anyone else's for that matter. With all those little differences affecting your performance, It's really hard to compare one factor like the power people are running at and make sound conclusions. It'll be trying for the first few runs. Take lots of data, observe your trends, adjust your next run accordingly. By run 6-8 you'll have a pretty good handle on it. I've been doing that for 25-30 runs now and have quite a good feel for how my system runs, when exactly to make changes to avoid issues, and such.

Good luck 30xs!

[Yummyrum]

........The only way I could raise heat was to lower the water to the dephleg and proof suffered.

What do you mean by this ? Are you watching a thermometer?

[30xs]

........The only way I could raise heat was to lower the water to the dephleg and proof suffered.

What do you mean by this ? Are you watching a thermometer?

I mean increase amperage to the heating element. Increasing the input to the boil. I know that I can not control the temperature of the boil itself.

[30xs]

That's good to hear. There's definitely a learning curve with a new rig, and everyone's is different. You have 180 1/16" holes in a 4" pipe. I have 317 1/16" holes in a 4" pipe. So right there, I'm going to need a lot more power to keep my fluid bath up than you, and heat my reservoir faster, yadda, yadda. And there's probably 20+ other differences between your still and mine, or anyone else's for that matter. With all those little differences affecting your performance, It's really hard to compare one factor like the power people are running at and make sound conclusions. It'll be trying for the first few runs. Take lots of data, observe your trends, adjust your next run accordingly. By run 6-8 you'll have a pretty good handle on it. I've been doing that for 25-30 runs now and have quite a good feel for how my system runs, when exactly to make changes to avoid issues, and such.

Good luck 30xs!

Out of curiosity, what do you get proof wise from 4 plates. I would imaging that it would be comparable between all 4 plate columns, with heat requirements and cooling needs being different amongst setups.

[30xs]

Ok. I figured out that I’m a dumbass. I had about three gallon that I had run months ago that was trying to cloud up a little when cut from about mid jar on. I ran it fairly hard and I think it may have been heavily tailsy. I decided to try tossing it in the boiler and cut it to about 22-24% best I could read the hydrometer inside the keg. It was a bit cloudy after being cut but could see the bottom of the keg, just not clearly. My adventure the other night running I was concerned with the bubble height, and only had the plates half loaded. After watching a few videos I loaded the plates to the top of the downcomer and started cutting water to the dephleg trying to get a fast drip. That proved a bit of a challenge, but I semi succeeded for about 8 ounces. Once I bumped it up to find a pace that was about two quarts per hour takeoff I have been setting at 94% rock solid and filling the third jar as we speak. The top plate doesn’t bubble quite as strongly as the other three, bottom being the strongest, but everything else seems to be on par with what I expected from this build. I would like to thank everyone that has paved the way and documented everything to even allow me to have the success that I’ve had so far. I was actually only expecting somewhere around 85%, but maybe I’m just pulling off a little too slow?

I do have one question, on the safety side. Since this is from an old run that clouded when cut, possible tails?, would this be safe for consumption after this run through? Or, should I take my few gallons of lighter fluid as a second cleaning and move on?

The 20 gallon reservoir and radiator setup has made it through 8 pints and warmup and is lukewarm to heated pool temperature. If it were a normal wash I’d be out of alcohol already, so I’m happy with it so far.

Edited to say that now that I am loading the plates fully I am running at the 2400 watts that everyone else seems to use as their magic number. I could almost bump it up a few watts and increase dephleg water to try and get a fuller top plate but it’s been so rock solid for the last four jars that I don’t want to mess with it.

[DetroitDIY]

[/quote]Out of curiosity, what do you get proof wise from 4 plates. I would imaging that it would be comparable between all 4 plate columns, with heat requirements and cooling needs being different amongst setups.
[/quote]

Funny thing on your question, I only started keeping records more recently on how many plates I'm running on a given run. And lately I want everything dirty, so I've been running 1-3 plates.

For the 3 plate runs, with temperature corrections, here's what I've been pulling off:

Sprit / ABV after Fores / Highest ABV I Kept
Marc Apple Brandy / 93.2 / 91.8
Oat Rye Whiskey / 90.6 / 87.0
Oat Rye Whiskey / 91.6 / 90.9

Mind you, all of these I was TRYING to run dirty, and that lead me to run the fewer 1 and 2 plates I've been running lately for my rums and bourbons. Next time I run 4 plates, I'll try to remember to let you know what I'm getting.

On the 3rd and 4th run of that Marc Apple Brandy (I had a lot of wash) I was running the same wash, with the same amount of feints added back in, on 1 plate and still had one run start after the Fores at 90.0 and another start at 86.5. So... I"m not running my same rig with a nearly identical wash consistently... Still learning... premature for me to do more than ballpark at the moment.

[30xs]

Out of curiosity, what do you get proof wise from 4 plates. I would imaging that it would be comparable between all 4 plate columns, with heat requirements and cooling needs being different amongst setups.
[/quote]

Funny thing on your question, I only started keeping records more recently on how many plates I'm running on a given run. And lately I want everything dirty, so I've been running 1-3 plates.

For the 3 plate runs, with temperature corrections, here's what I've been pulling off:

Sprit / ABV after Fores / Highest ABV I Kept
Marc Apple Brandy / 93.2 / 91.8
Oat Rye Whiskey / 90.6 / 87.0
Oat Rye Whiskey / 91.6 / 90.9

Mind you, all of these I was TRYING to run dirty, and that lead me to run the fewer 1 and 2 plates I've been running lately for my rums and bourbons. Next time I run 4 plates, I'll try to remember to let you know what I'm getting.

On the 3rd and 4th run of that Marc Apple Brandy (I had a lot of wash) I was running the same wash, with the same amount of feints added back in, on 1 plate and still had one run start after the Fores at 90.0 and another start at 86.5. So... I"m not running my same rig with a nearly identical wash consistently... Still learning... premature for me to do more than ballpark at the moment.
[/quote]

So the 94% on four plates with a 22% wash seems like it should be about right. Do you get a taper in proof as the run progresses? I pulled 12 pints and on the 13th the output slowed waaay down. The parrot was only showing a drop to 93.5%. I killed the dephleg water and collected a almost a gallon before it hit 35%. It dropped to 50% pretty quick, but rode there through a couple quarts before starting to dive again. It looked more like a stripping run than a cleanup run after I killed the dephleg. I questioned whether I should have bumped the heat up a bit to see if I could bring more over at the ends and wasted a bit. I sampled the middle jar and without airing it was no burn, but little flavor. I kinda expected that because I had to cut with water to have the volume to protect my element. This is a learning curve, but watching the plates bubbling away was a bit satisfying after spending all this time putting it together.

[30xs]

So replaying my run in my head, probably some over thinking going on, I’ve thought of a few things and have a couple questions. When doing my cleaning runs my temp was 208 on water and vinegar, and the 12 pint run was a constant 169. I think my thermo is off a little being that those number don’t translate to physics. My questions are:

1. I have another thermo I can put in, but it has a 4” stem. It
clears the back wall by about a 1/2” or so. Would this be ok,
or should I order another 2.5” stem thermo?

2. When running I was trying to keep it close to the suggested 2
quart per hour takeoff. On the 13th jar the flow dwindled
down to almost a stop, all plates still bubbling at a slightly
lower level. Cut to tails from there, or should I have refluxed
and tried to increase heat to see if there was anything else
left? Trying the kill dephleg and watch the parrot walk to
Nothing in a jar didn’t happen. It took almost a gallon, at
screaming speeds, to get down to 35%. Meaning a couple
quarts of alcohol still in the boiler? This was a rerun and I
couldn’t see the tails being that heavy in it, even though ran
too hard, possible?

3. This was cut with water, so I expected flavor loss, but tasting
Middle jar cut, no blending yet, it was VERY light on flavor.
Is this from being a third distill and water cutting, or was I
possibly just taking off too slow stripping all the flavor?
Perhaps a combination of the two?

[30xs]

Here is the radiator cooling system for my reservoir. Twenty gallon barrel filled to about 18 gallons and even after stripping the last gallon wide open it was lukewarm to the touch. Definitely not even up to bath water temps. Hopefully it helps someone else trying to do a reservoir keep the water volume to a minimum.

[30xs]

It’s a 3 core Honda Civic aluminum radiator. I used a 1” cap drilled for two 1/2” ACR lines, 3/8” in water line, and sweat my NPT adapters to them. The loop to keep the cooling water in the radiator is all 1” necked down to 3/4” on the down tube. The pump is a 2500 GPH Harbor Freight fountain pump. It’s overkill for flow, but when I can pull out of the stream it is about the minimum I can get away with for head height. I’m not sure if a smaller pump would be better for allowing the dwell time in the radiator or not because that would be hotter water coming in as well. With this setup I wouldn’t recommend choking down the loop to anything smaller because it had a full 3/4” stream coming out of it the whole run. The shotgun and return line was barely warm, and the dephleg return line was hot to the touch, checking at the copper Y going into the radiator top.

[Yummyrum]

This is a learning curve, but watching the plates bubbling away was a bit satisfying after spending all this time putting it together.

You’re doing OK 30xs ..... enjoy the view ... you deserve it

Time to run a real wash through it .... and BTW , ignore the thermometer .

When I run my flute I always have my spoon and a glass of water there . You can pretty much tell on the fly how to run it by taste . If the hearts are coming across too bland , up the take-off rate . You can also tweak up the power . But turn up the power too much and you will start pulling tails through ... oh boy ... you’ll know when that happens .
Hearts runs as you’ve found are quite long on a flute so its pretty important to be aware while its running what they are coming across like .

And when the tails start to come across at the end of the hearts you will be able to tell very suddenly .

Taste ,during the run is way more important than temp .

[30xs]

This is a learning curve, but watching the plates bubbling away was a bit satisfying after spending all this time putting it together.

You’re doing OK 30xs ..... enjoy the view ... you deserve it

Time to run a real wash through it .... and BTW , ignore the thermometer .

When I run my flute I always have my spoon and a glass of water there . You can pretty much tell on the fly how to run it by taste . If the hearts are coming across too bland , up the take-off rate . You can also tweak up the power . But turn up the power too much and you will start pulling tails through ... oh boy ... you’ll know when that happens .
Hearts runs as you’ve found are quite long on a flute so its pretty important to be aware while its running what they are coming across like .

And when the tails start to come across at the end of the hearts you will be able to tell very suddenly .

Taste ,during the run is way more important than temp .

I ran a couple strips, 3.5 gallon, and about 4.5 gallon of old wash. Last night. The output was about running pretty hot at 94.5% for most of the run, flavor did suffer a bit. But being a rookie I wasn’t sure what to be expecting. In jar 12 it started to stop and then took off again. At jar 14 it was slowing so I dropped the dephleg water a little. Cost me a half percent but no signs of tails. The fluid level on all plates was diminishing and I wanted to see the bottom plate dry and fog so I increased heat and dephleg water trying to keep a balance on the takeoff rate as I increased vapor. I was hoping more push would move the alcohol up drying out the bottom plate and fogging the glass. This twiddling about was raising the hydrometer slightly. Jar 16 took a small hit of tails. Dumped the parrot at first sign and the next jar coming off at around 92-92.5% had an awesome flavor, but flow stopped on it. None of the plates were truly loaded, but all continuing to bubble at a lower fluid level and no fog. I went into potstill mode from there and went from 90% to 30% in a quart. Much happier with the end of this run compared to last experiment. Judging from what I was seeing here to get a stronger flavor profile I may need to stop worrying about trying to keep a certain takeoff rate and shoot for a slightly lower ABV to find the flavor I had in jar 17. These things are amazing how they can run so linear through the run without anything but jar swaps required.

I know I half shot myself in the foot with the soldering in of the plates, but would either more holes, or enlarging the current pattern to 3/32”, instead of 1/16”, help with both flavor carry over and getting the telltale bottom plate loss as tails coming? Do I need more heat and more reflux to keep the push and compression higher and I just missed that balance point slightly with not enough water sent to the dephleg on jar 16? I have a batch of sweet feed bubbling away currently to see what a wash charge gets me.

I’m very happy with the dephleg so far. I can come close to full reflux while loading the plates, but what comes over is fores anyways. The best part is when I make a small adjustment I can see it at the parrot within seconds. Usually less than 15 seconds I see the change starting, even though I’m sure it hasn’t fully lined out yet.

[DetroitDIY]

30xs, did you solder all your plates, or just some of them? Which ones? If you soldered only ones at the top or bottom, I'm thinking you could heat it up locally with a torch and while the solder is still hot, blow some compressed air on it. Rotate a bit and repeat. I'm thinking you could "unstitch" a solder that you could access this way. It will look ugly inside, but may be a way to free your tree if you're really regretting it. If you soldered multiple plates on a tree... well that sounds trickier.

[30xs]

30xs, did you solder all your plates, or just some of them? Which ones? If you soldered only ones at the top or bottom, I'm thinking you could heat it up locally with a torch and while the solder is still hot, blow some compressed air on it. Rotate a bit and repeat. I'm thinking you could "unstitch" a solder that you could access this way. It will look ugly inside, but may be a way to free your tree if you're really regretting it. If you soldered multiple plates on a tree... well that sounds trickier.

I soldered all four. The plate tree was so tight that without solder I wouldn’t have been able to spin it. It took a slide hammer to jar them up to start to be able to start pulling it out. With the rod connecting them all I don’t think I’d be able to get them apart without some column destruction taking place.

[Yummyrum]

The bottom plate has never fogged up or dried up on mine as a tell tale sign of tails coming .
Tails is detectable by flavour well before . You will be basically stripping putrid tails before the windows fog up .

I think your still setup is fine . No need to go thinking about changing hole size or count .
What you have will work perfectly ..... you just gotta learn to run it .

BTW ... pleased your Deflag worked out a treat

[googe]

nice build mate

[30xs]

nice build mate

Thank for the compliment, Googe. I always enjoy your posts, but haven’t seen much lately. May just be the topics I’ve been reading?

[30xs]

The bottom plate has never fogged up or dried up on mine as a tell tale sign of tails coming .
Tails is detectable by flavour well before . You will be basically stripping putrid tails before the windows fog up .

I think your still setup is fine . No need to go thinking about changing hole size or count .
What you have will work perfectly ..... you just gotta learn to run it .

BTW ... pleased your Deflag worked out a treat

Thanks, Yummy. I’d like to thank you and DetroitDIY, and Acfixer for hanging around and helping out along the way. Also a huge thanks to this forum and everyone that documented builds along the way. I’m a visual learner, so have read just about every flute build that I could find along the way to help my learning curve.

[30xs]

So I’ve been giving some thought to possibly starting a new build. Possibly going completely modular, but had a few questions before I committed. Since I can machine out the inside of the ferrules, if I machines out the top ferrule to allow a press fit plate to rest on the bottom ferrule would it create a seal that would be sufficient to not leak past the plate? I would like to have the plates so that I could press them back up through the top affording me the ability to change a module from perf to bubble without having to build each module specific for only one style plate. I found some sweet looking sight windows, but they are listed as 0.0013% lead. If I’m correct less than 0.25% is all that is required to be classified as lead free, what is the ruling on these?