4 plate flute plans and build

[hypnopooper]

Ooh! those look good do tell us more about the sight glasses, what size and where did you get them?

[30xs]

I haven’t ordered them yet. I stumbled onto them on Alibaba when trying to do a search for something. They would be coming out of China and available in 2” and 2.5” for sure. Other sizes may be available, but I’m not a fan of a bezel larger than my column width and with my spacing they would start getting a bit close for my liking. 2,25” would have been my preference if available. Same bezel as a 2” with a larger window port. Pricing was reasonable, even adding 5mm to the back of the 2.5” for a one piece and enough room to radius was an additional $3. I only priced a small batch of 7. Freight was $74. Windows were $25 and $40, with a 15mm stub up barge on the 2.5”. Seals were silicone inner and PTFE outer seal. 2.25” could be made if I had a large order, but I didn’t get price or details.

[DetroitDIY]

if I machines out the top ferrule to allow a press fit plate to rest on the bottom ferrule would it create a seal that would be sufficient to not leak past the plate?

I think that depends on your tolerances 30xs. You might think of it this way, you want a certain percentage of open area in your plate. I think I went for 8%. Consider worst case how bad you could be on your fitting of the plate to the ferrule... 1/32 gap all around? 1/64? Multiply by Pi * D, subtract that area from the holes you plan to drill. Start conservative, you can always drill more if you're tight.

Conversely, drill all the holes you want, and if the leakage is too much, solder holes shut.

I had 314 1/16" holes (0.963 in.^2 opening) in a 4" pipe (12.566 in.^2)... 7.7% open. If I had 1/32 gap around the perimeter of my plate, that's 0.393 in^2. So I could start with drilling only 200 holes, assuming that the perimeter would leak like a sieve (pun intended).

Well, just a thought. I haven't done this, so take the suggestion with a grain of salt.

Regarding the lead, does sound like it's below the lead free threshold. That said, if you were worried, you could "tin" to surfaces exposed to the liquid/vapor path with solder if you were worried. I did that with the portions of my brass ferrules.

[DetroitDIY]

ps. those sight glasses look very pretty. Glad you're finding something. Who knows, if you had waited for another guy to cough some up, he may have never committed.

[30xs]

if I machines out the top ferrule to allow a press fit plate to rest on the bottom ferrule would it create a seal that would be sufficient to not leak past the plate?

I think that depends on your tolerances 30xs. You might think of it this way, you want a certain percentage of open area in your plate. I think I went for 8%. Consider worst case how bad you could be on your fitting of the plate to the ferrule... 1/32 gap all around? 1/64? Multiply by Pi * D, subtract that area from the holes you plan to drill. Start conservative, you can always drill more if you're tight.

Conversely, drill all the holes you want, and if the leakage is too much, solder holes shut.

I had 314 1/16" holes (0.963 in.^2 opening) in a 4" pipe (12.566 in.^2)... 7.7% open. If I had 1/32 gap around the perimeter of my plate, that's 0.393 in^2. So I could start with drilling only 200 holes, assuming that the perimeter would leak like a sieve (pun intended).

Well, just a thought. I haven't done this, so take the suggestion with a grain of salt.

Regarding the lead, does sound like it's below the lead free threshold. That said, if you were worried, you could "tin" to surfaces exposed to the liquid/vapor path with solder if you were worried. I did that with the portions of my brass ferrules.

Using my mini lathe I was able to cut to a tolerance so tight that by the time the fourth plate on the tree was going in I was using everything I had in my thumbs to get in a few inches. I had to use a block of wood and hammer to get the last few inches. My thinking was using wall tolerances combined with the plate resting on the ferrule it could be seal that allowed being able swap out plate styles and only need to build the number of plates I wanted and then change from sieve to bubble by just pushing the plate out the top and dropping in another. If I’m doing my math correctly using 1/8” plates with 5.5” spacing I should have enough room to get my ferrules and clamps in between them. I want to play with the current setup and see if there is anything I’d like to change. If I hadn’t soldered I think I had the tolerance that would have allowed me to try dropping a plate. What is the consensus on the maximum spacing in a plate? I’m trying to sort out a minimum plate design with enough height to allow reasonable collection height, but not throw me too tall and max plate setup. I’m thinking 5 would be the max I’d run.

[emptyglass]

do a search on "entrainment"

[30xs]

do a search on "entrainment"

Do you have any specific ones that stand out? The reading that I have read through left me with the following thinking.

Smaller holes 1/16” helped produce a cleaner taste profile, both by what would be a surface contact coming through the fluid bed, and the need for less power to keep from collapsing.

A deeper fluid bath, the reason I chosen 3/4”, also gave a little more cleaning time within the bath.

Extra plate spacing over the 4” minimum could also help allow some extra entrainment to fall out of the mix on the way up. What becomes too much when adding extra spacing, and still allow for stabile plate operation?

My first run after cleaning I ran a couple previous strips through at a takeoff rate of about 2L per hour. Very clean hearts, and stabile through the run. My next run was on a questionable ferment. Even at that after a hard warmup to load the plates the top couple plates carried a higher fluid level than normal. Cutting all the heat completely would take a full minute of so to collapse ale four plates. Had a surging action as the energy on the plate died down? Since I’m planning on building another full modular, eventually as time allows, I’m trying to see if I want to change plates a little. If I can reproduce the first run with these plates and compress the tails a bit more by adding more spacing between plate I will probably go that route. I will probably also build some bubble cap plates to play around with as well.

[30xs]

ps. those sight glasses look very pretty. Glad you're finding something. Who knows, if you had waited for another guy to cough some up, he may have never committed.

I’ve been having a few issues with the cork starting to leak mid-run, or on a back to back run one of them staring to leak out of the blue. I was wondering if you were experiencing the same issues with the cork, or if you may be changing the cork out after each run? I like the clean look of the trap adapters, but the 2” having such a narrow gasket surface combined with the thin, 1/32, cork thickness is making things pretty fragile. Maybe a 1/16” cork would help a little.

[DetroitDIY]

Hey 30xs, a few thoughts on the cork:

When I first installed, I did not use any lubricant (didn't have any).

I noticed that the cork is not very tough, and over-tightening during the initial assembly would tend to tear the cork washers. Destroyed one in the process.

Then when first running it I did have leaks, but tightened the trap adapters while in operation (the liquid helped to lubricate for gentle tightening to stop the leaks), but I don't know that they could have taken very much tightening... didn't to in order to stop the leaks and didn't want to push things.

I don't tend to mess much with my sight glasses once I have them on an secured. But once or twice I've wanted to get inside my flute sections, which I have to do through the sight glasses for the 2x or 3x plate sections. In those cases, I typically find that the cork has adhered to the metal (not the glass), has become a bit brittle, and is likely to become damaged. I did not notice shrinking... just embrittlement.

Thicker may work well, but I had been afraid of having too few threads engaged on the trap adapter after slipping the cork on either side and the glass in there. Did I mention I have cork on both sides of the glass? I elected to do that as I didn't want the very hard, brittle failure glass directly being pinched by the metal surfaces where a little surface irregularity could cause a high stress concentration and risk fracture.

I like the looks of things, but as time goes on and my sill becomes more a tool, I worry less about the work of art. I like it and all. I'm glad I did it. But I don't expect I would ever do it again. Along those lines, I may just use a more resilient material (PTFE wrapped something or other) we're I to sort out the seals a-new.

Good luck. Hope I didn't lead you too far a stray with the cork gaskets.

DetroitDIY

[Yummyrum]

Hey 30xs, a few thoughts on the cork:

When I first installed, I did not use any lubricant (didn't have any).

I noticed that the cork is not very tough, and over-tightening during the initial assembly would tend to tear the cork washers. Destroyed one in the process.

Then when first running it I did have leaks, but tightened the trap adapters while in operation (the liquid helped to lubricate for gentle tightening to stop the leaks), but I don't know that they could have taken very much tightening... didn't to in order to stop the leaks and didn't want to push things.

That is so true . what ever gasket you use , a smear of vege oil, or even a splash of water will help

I like the looks of things, but as time goes on and my sill becomes more a tool, I worry less about the work of art. I like it and all. I'm glad I did it. But I don't expect I would ever do it again. Along those lines, I may just use a more resilient material (PTFE wrapped something or other) we're I to sort out the seals a-new.

DetroitDIY

That is Gold advice Detriot . We so get wrapped up in the aesthetics of our build that it often blinds us to whats the best outcome in the end ...and that is exactly as you say ...a tool... for making drinkable alcohol . And I'll admit I'm as guilty as the rest
I didn't want to look at white teflon tape through my nice shiny brass sight glasses ....but after a few runs , I'm not even look at it , I'm looking through it ........several more runs and I don't even look anymore

[30xs]

I am also running cork on both sides of the glass, to help eliminate stress points. I’ve had a few times where I’d be an hour or so into a run and one would start a drip that I couldn’t tighten to stop. A couple quick wraps of PTFE tape around the outside of the nut, since there was a cork on the other side, allowed me to finish the run. Another time I tried two back to back, from wash, runs drained the keg, refill, and as soon as heat up completed drip, drip, drip around the lower window. The column had made a couple runs previously, no tightening in the brass nut. Tightening wouldn’t stop the drip, had to shut down and build a new gasket. I’ve been using vegetable glycerin as a lubricant from day one. I’ve been giving serious thought to doing as Yummy, I think, did. PTFE wrapped silicone cutting board gaskets. I agree it’s a tool and aesthetics aren’t as important as function.

[30xs]

I do have an operational question. Last run I did went like this. Boiler loaded with 10.5 gallons at 25% ABV. Loaded the plates and cut back to around 2300 watts and after dripping the first pint bumped it up to about 2 quart per hour takeoff. I had a few times were the output stream would go from falling straight down to almost overshooting the jar for a second and dropping back to normal takeoff speed. It was almost like a huff from the dephleg or power surge from the element. After collecting 12 pints the bottom plate started loosing some volume. I noticed a faint tails in jar 13. I started bumping up my element wattage by about 50 watts at a time and increasing water to maintain a constant takeoff. Jar 14 was tailsy, but jar 15 was cleaner than 13. I know the parrot smearing was keeping me from getting quicker results between jars, but my question is with being able to reload the bottom plate and clean up the product in the end should I be running more heat from the beginning and adjust the water to the dephleg to set takeoff? So far both of my runs have had an average 94% ABV with four plates. I’m sure there would a little room for bumping up takeoff rate, but fearing entrainment has kept me from increasing takeoff so far.

The other question would be about the takeoff rate occasional surge. I’m running seven 1” tubes in my dephleg. I’m already contemplating a second fully modular build. I’m wondering if an eight 3/4” tube dephleg would be better and I’m possibly a little too open allowing some extra vapor up through the center. I really like the response time I have with this one. It is only seconds to see small changes in either heat input or needle valve adjustments.

[Yummyrum]

I think you probably should use a bit more power . 2300w is probably on the low side . If your plates are loosing volume ,that indicates not enough power . I suspect that is also why you are having erratic output . So yes more power and more reflux should help out heaps and it will hold the tails back as you found out .
Every still is different but I recon you could probably run to 3000w before entrainment will start causing you grief .You should experiment to see how high you can go .You will know you are suffering entrainment when you can taste tails during the start of the run ( heads hearts ) and running high reflux ratio ( taking off minimal speed) still tastes tails .

At this point you can reduce power and you will find the product becomes cleaner again .

[30xs]

I think you probably should use a bit more power . 2300w is probably on the low side . If your plates are loosing volume ,that indicates not enough power . I suspect that is also why you are having erratic output . So yes more power and more reflux should help out heaps and it will hold the tails back as you found out .
Every still is different but I recon you could probably run to 3000w before entrainment will start causing you grief .You should experiment to see how high you can go .You will know you are suffering entrainment when you can taste tails during the start of the run ( heads hearts ) and running high reflux ratio ( taking off minimal speed) still tastes tails .

At this point you can reduce power and you will find the product becomes cleaner again .

Thank you, Yummy. I have been trying to search for posts with entrainment since Emptyglass posted above. The closest to an informative post was by Mash Rookie, but admittedly some of it was over my head. with a search there were so many that contained entrainment with little to no help in my application that it was almost futile searching that way. I’m not sure I will bump it all the way to 3000. I think I was around 25-2600 when I cleaned up a jar using the extra reflux. My plates were loaded nicely through the first 12 pints. I just started losing the bottom plate earlier than what I thought I should. I’ll sneak up on your suggestion, but with everything being different maybe I can run a bit lower than others, for my taste. An extra couple pints would be a nice bonus though. Also, it’s your thinking that my low wattage caused the erratic parrot output? I’m going to build another, including a new dephleg, so I’m looking to solidify build plans as well. I know that both seven 1” and eight 3/4” exceed the volume of the 2” riser that they will be feeding vapor to. The 1” is slightly less than half the 4” volume, but over 175% of the 2”. The 3/4” would be about 150% of the 2”, but closer to a third of the 4”.

[acfixer69]

Not going to open a definitive answer but as I remember from our PMs I calc 'ed a 5% on the holes you drilled and thought you would be limited on in put but not a perf guy but would think that will slow you down.

[30xs]

Not going to open a definitive answer but as I remember from our PMs I calc 'ed a 5% on the holes you drilled and thought you would be limited on in put but not a perf guy but would think that will slow you down.

Yes, I believe I am somewhere around 5% open. That’s one of the reasons I’m wanting to build another, the ability to change out plates. I may even read up on how to and build a set of bubble cap plates.

What speeds would you expect? I have been content with my two quarts per hour takeoff rate and the product that comes off at that rate. I’m just struggling to keep everything running properly on the last 20% of the alcohol in the boiler. 25% of the ten and a half gallon charge should have had 2.5 gallon potential. The last run was at 1.5 gallon when the bottom plate started losing depth. It didn’t take much more input and the slightest turn of the needle to reload the plate and keep output just dribbling along. On the third jar after tweaking heat and water the product jar was better than the two previous jars. If most people don’t have to chase the balance at the end of the run I’m thinking that I may need to run more heat/reflux at the beginning of the run to be able to run out a full run with minimal tweaking. All of my runs so far have been about 25% ABV because I do a couple stripping runs and then dilute them with some extra wash. I haven’t had any success doing a one and done run from wash yet.

[DetroitDIY]

Hey there 30xs,

I did not use the calculators on this forum when making my dephleg, so take my info with a pinch of salt, but...

I was afraid of too large diameter pipes for my vapor size... worried about too little contact. I used 3/4" diameter in both my dephleg and my PC. I packed as many tubes as I could get in there... 19 tubes inside the 4" pipe. I was honestly afraid that this was too much open area after I had done it that I choked off 5 of the tubes. That lead to 89% vapor pathway and 11% coolant pathway. Not sure of the gauge of pipe you're using, but I'll assume you've done like me and used DWV 4" and (7) M 1". If that's the case, you have 52% vapor and 48% coolant. The active length of my dephleg is 6" and I have 3 baffels inside, and my coolant reservoir temp will generally not exceed 80F (else I actively cool it); important considerations in it's effectiveness.

I mention all this because you say your getting good temperature effect response time, but if you biase more of your cross sectional area to vapor and less to coolant you... change the coolant faster (though I'll bet my baffels cause some low flow areas that are slower to change), choke the vapor less, so the vapor velocity is lower, so it has more interaction time for the knockdown. I can easily run 3.7 kW and have no concerns of insufficient knockdown.

I've been very happy with this dephleg, and would do it again were I to make another.

Lately I've been running 2-3 plates at about 3 kW through most of my runs, raising to 3.35 or so near the end. I can run as low as 2 kW, but somewhere South of that I can't keep the plates loaded. My plates are about 8% open, so I need to push a bit more than you to keep them loaded.

My rum takeoff (where I have the most experience) at the 3 kW is an average of 2.4 l/hr with a standard deviation of 0.54. A pretty out of control process, but that reflects my ongoing learning... Anyways, I'm a little faster than you 30xs, but not by much (on average).

I'm right there with Yummy that a bit more power and a bit more cooling should make you less sensitive to your plate draining.

DetroitDIY

[30xs]

Hey there 30xs,

I did not use the calculators on this forum when making my dephleg, so take my info with a pinch of salt, but...

I was afraid of too large diameter pipes for my vapor size... worried about too little contact. I used 3/4" diameter in both my dephleg and my PC. I packed as many tubes as I could get in there... 19 tubes inside the 4" pipe.

DetroitDIY

19 3/4” tubes in 4”? I’m guessing that you meant 1/2”? If my math is correct and you are using 1/2” tubes that would give you about 3.8 square inches of tube volume. That would put you roughly around 33% open through the dephleg with a higher vapor speed, but more surface contact than me. I am using type L copper, because that’s what I had at the time. 3.921” inner diameter if memory serves me correctly. i think that is where my plates would start to press in at. My dephleg is about 4.75”. When I am running I can see the changes to the water flow instantly, but that may mean that I am on the ragged edge of what it will do. Maybe I need to redesign the dephleg and plates for the next column. I’m not concerned with having a slightly lower takeoff than you, I honestly haven’t pushed it to see if I can go faster without compromising quality. I’m currently running now. I started out in the 2500 range to see if that keeps the plates loaded at the end of the run. I do think I’m going to have to add something for turbulence to my shotgun. My last run I was getting a little vapor bypass. I shut down to add a little bit of scrubber to the vent and proceeded. I blended and cut, 45%, the last run today and it went hazy. I had a similar result from my potstill when putting some new copper mesh in. This mesh was used, but may not have been perfectly clean. It was from Mile High, so I don’t think it is a copper quality issue.

[DetroitDIY]

Thanks 30xs, my bad on the tube diameter, and thus my math. Sorry for the confusion... I should have caught that myself.

I too added some turbulators to my shotgun PC... wound copper springs, worked like a charm. Probably should to the same for my dephleg (which I guess is technically not a dephleg if it's a shotgun style... is that right?), but it's working fine without them.

Hope things went well for you last night. You'll get the hang of your system. I would actually you go ahead and design, but don't build a new system until you use yours and get the hang of it. Find out what you like and what you don't, then start a new build with that experience under your belt.

Take care,
DetroitDIY

[30xs]

Thanks 30xs, my bad on the tube diameter, and thus my math. Sorry for the confusion... I should have caught that myself.

I too added some turbulators to my shotgun PC... wound copper springs, worked like a charm. Probably should to the same for my dephleg (which I guess is technically not a dephleg if it's a shotgun style... is that right?), but it's working fine without them.

Hope things went well for you last night. You'll get the hang of your system. I would actually you go ahead and design, but don't build a new system until you use yours and get the hang of it. Find out what you like and what you don't, then start a new build with that experience under your belt.

Take care,
DetroitDIY

I think I’m starting to get the hang of it. Left my dunder in the boiler last night and tossed the 5 quarts I had that clouded up when cut back into the boiler. My thoughts were the dunder would help preserve flavor. I just finished running it and when things slowed down, where I usually cut water trying to bring more over I just bumped up the heat a little. A few 50-75 bumps to keep taking off and I was able to reclaim the whole gallon and a half. The bottom plate dropped off and I shut down with more than enough in the parrot to finish the last pint off, only needed a few ounces. Either I am getting quite a bit of tails From my ferment, or I still need some practice. With the wash showing 30% I only pulled 20% before the tails taste shut me down last night. Tonight I collected the volume I put in and actually seen the plate unload. Last night it was bubbling away even with what tasted tailsy coming off the pipe.

[30xs]

Just received word that the new windows are completed, and ready to ship. They are including both the original silicone inner seal and a PTFE inner seal.