What went wrong?

[82Winger]

I recently tried a new recipe...a new one to me. I tried my first 4 grain with molasses and ended with no alcohol. NONE. I have had successful runs with UJSSM before.
My recipe was this..
17 lbs. milled corn
4 lbs. milled barley
1 lb. milled oats
5 lbs milled rye
35 lbs. sugar
1 packet of Amylase enzyme
32 oz. molasses
6 1/4oz. of Fleischmann's yeast.

I heated my water to around 170 degrees. Stirred in all the ingredients minus the yeast. The next day after cooling, I added my yeast and stirred every day for 7 days. When I tested the mash the SG was 1.013
I did not do an initial check.
What did I do wrong??

[cayars]

Nearly Everything
Grains go in at different temperatures. IE Corn at 190F+, oats, rye < 170F, malted barley < 152F generally speaking (you didn't mention if the barley was malted or not).
You likely killed the enzymes (if not high temp) as soon as you added them at that temperature.
You likely didn't do a starch test anywhere during the process.
You didn't check the SG to see if you had converted anything to sugar from grains.
You added the sugar at the same time as the grains which is a no no as you want to verify starch conversions and SG first.
You have no idea what the potential ABV% was going to be with that much sugar added.

You likely got an expensive sugar wash using the 35 pounds of sugar that was added.

Try reading viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17750 which is a tried and true Bourbon like recipe that will help you with many of the things mentioned above. Learn to process grains properly and they'll treat you well on the taste buds.

[OtisT]

+1 to cayars post. A few other missing bits of info. What was the size of your ferment that all those ingredients went into? What was the temp at which you pitched yeast, and did you hold the temp close to that for the 6 days? Did you see any ferment activity at any time? Did you get a before and after SG reading?

If you pitched yeast at a good temp and maintained it, you should at least get some alcohol out of the sugar you added. If the sugar did ferment, you could squeeze out and run that juice, and save the grains for your next ferment.

If you have the ability to heat that mash up, you may be able to salvage it. Even if you have to do it one small volume at a time to get that corn first, then the other grains to convert.

Otis

[82Winger]

Thanks for the replies. I was going by a recipe titled "Grand Pappy's 4 grain liquor recipe" which I found on another site. I can see how I failed. I have tried to include pics of my setup, but no option for that. Basically it is a half barrel boiler with electric control, a 1/6 keg for the thumper and a liebig condenser. I already squeezed my mash and ran it. The end result was not good. It suffered from scorching ( I ran the heat on high for the first 30 min.). Thus I threw the entire batch away. I am looking to make another run but I wanted to get an idea where I went wrong. Thanks

[fizzix]

Research mashing procedures, 82Winger.
There's a specific order to what gets cooked when, and at what temperature ranges.
When to add malts and enzymes, and how & when to rest the mash, etc. and so on.

It's not hard to imprint these steps in your head so you never mess up again.
Hey, if I can do it, anyone can.

Better success to you next time.

[cayars]

Thomas Edison - I didn't fail. I just found 2,000 ways not to make a lightbulb; I only needed to find one way to make it work.

82Winger, you just found your first way not to make a whiskey.

Try one of the all grain mashes from the Tried and True section of the board. It will walk you through the process using the grains listed in the recipe. Once you get one run under your belt it will make more sense and adding in other grains will just be a small adjustment.

[OtisT]

Post scorch, you will need to clean that element well to get the crust off before running another batch. Is your rig running a 5500 W element? Is it ULWD? (Foldback and wavey). The ULWD elements help, but you still need to watch your power, especially on strips where the liquid may not be totally clear.

Patience is one of the hardest things to include in your spirit, but it is necessary at times. To minimize your chance for a scorch, let your ferment clear next time before running it. After you squeeze the grains, let that liquid settle and siphon off the clear beer for your main kettle. At least a day and most of your liquid will be clear. If you want to run the cloudy material, put that in your thumper for the strip run.

You can add attachments here on HD. In the Post editor screen, scroll to the bottom and look in the lower left for the option. The system lets you resize some types of image files, and you will want to choose Medium so it’s not too big

Best of luck to you.

Otis

[StillerBoy]

Your're not new to HD.. so what happen to searching and learning..

A UJSSM is not an all grain mash.. it is a sugar shine wash with a corn flavour.. two very different animals in their process..

But as was pointed out, it was not a failure, it was just not the results you wanted..

Best advise.. learn to walk before wanting to run on your next try..

Mars

[82Winger]

Lots to learn, but lovin it.

[8Ball]

If you can build a rig like that then you can also follow a tried and true. Lots of good advice here. Read up and good luck.

[OtisT]

Nice rig 82.

Insulating the thumper will help a little to reduce warmup time and reduce a bit the need for as much power in the main boiler.

Otis

[cayars]

I'd loose the bird to avoid "intentional" smearing if it were me but that's a nice rig you built.

Looks like a pretty clean garage as well. Mine is usually an obstacle course. The only clean spot I ever have is when I'm cutting grass and the tractor is out. The upper level (loft) is pretty clean, but only cause it's hard to get to.

You have the right equipment to make some nice spirits!

Question, can you run that setup without the thumper? You'll likely not want to always use it.

[82Winger]

Thanks all. I just got in a little rush to make some spirits so I could brag a little over X-Mas. I'll get it right since I'm recently retired.

[shadylane]

I already squeezed my mash and ran it. The end result was not good. It suffered from scorching ( I ran the heat on high for the first 30 min.). Thus I threw the entire batch away. I am looking to make another run but I wanted to get an idea where I went wrong. Thanks

It's difficult to heat a mash with electric elements.
Put the thin mash in the boiler and the thick in the thumper
Or build you a steam rig
All you need is a bigger thumper
With a lid that's easy to take off
And a way to drain it

[pope]

The only way I've been able to cook grains with electric is to boil water, use high temp enzymes, and only use flours or grains milled to a near-flour consistency. Otherwise the heat won't penetrate the particles enough to loosen those starches and you won't get conversion. But then you have to change the way you strip your flour-slurry mess and that's a whole other can of worms.

BUT since you're rigged for a thumper, you could basically do a flour recipe, put the clear liquid off the top of the grain into the boiler, get a larger keg for the thumper and fill it with the flour slurry. Might need some retooling a little but it would work for you and you could do all grain with just electric. Just need that larger second keg and to shim up your boiler a bit to preserve the lyne arm angle. Your thumper volume will go UP because more steam will condense in the thumper than will leave as alcohol vapor to the condenser, so you will need more head room. Anyway it's an option.

With all that sugar it almost sounds like an UJSSM with a different blend of grains. 35# is a lot of sugar, what was your SG and what was your volume? For a sugar head like that (or almost any ferment) stay low, aim for a ~6% target ABV. If you hit around 6% and strip until your low wines are around 25%, depending on your cuts you can get pretty close to bottle strength on a spirit run without having to add water.

[StillerBoy]

If you hit around 6% and strip until your low wines are around 25%, depending on your cuts you can get pretty close to bottle strength on a spirit run without having to add water.

pope.. your statement certainly does not make sense to me, or I'm not getting what you are stating..

I do lots of batches that average about 8,5%, with the stripped low wine overall averaging in the range of 33 - 35%, and when I do the spirit run, by the time I rearch 68 - 65% abv overall average, the run is into the mid section of the tail..

So my numbers are not that far off from yours up to the spirit run,, but if I were to run it to a lower abv, to something like you state, "close bottle strength", I would be deep into the tails section..

So your cuts are very wide, with lots of tail to them, if you are recommending to go to that level..

Mars

[Twisted Brick]

I do lots of batches that average about 8,5%, with the stripped low wine overall averaging in the range of 33 - 35%, and when I do the spirit run, by the time I rearch 68 - 65% abv overall average, the run is into the mid section of the tail..

So my numbers are not that far off from yours up to the spirit run,, but if I were to run it to a lower abv, to something like you state, "close bottle strength", I would be deep into the tails section..

Mars

Mars, my batches are about the same as yours (~8.5%) and translate to 30-35% low wines. Hearts appear around 83-85% and tails cutoff is usually around 72-73%. I too, seek to attain Pope's goal of minimizing the amount of dilution to get to barrel strength. Is it just a matter of running strips low enough to get to 20-25% low wines?

[pope]

Could be true Mars, I do tend to like my tails. Much different for white or aged spirit and I wrote that thinking of aged. But I could also be off by a couple percent and it would be a large cumulative difference. Some of my ferments get higher and I’ll have to either run long stripping to dilute my low wines or I will come out high on spirit runs. Also keep in mind if I am light on heads I’ll be getting a lower aggregate with conservative cuts, if I recycle my feints into an all feints run I’m never too concerned about where I make my cuts. And I’m still experimenting with cuts but those numbers were right where the last bourbon run got me.

TB it’s worth trying to run your strips longer and focus on a target low wine abv vs a stopping head temp or parrot abv. I think it adds to the end result. I’ve had to strip down to virtually 0% and probably 99.4 c (though my thermometer isn’t accurate enough for that to be a meaningful value except to me in a relative way), I think I picked it up off something Der Wo said somewhere here but I couldn’t tell you what thread.

[Twisted Brick]

I agree. I have already done a number of strips where I have gone below 10%. I'm familiar with the thread you refer to, where Der Wo mentions about stripping even past 0% on his LM, but he was distilling rum. At my current (limited) stage of understanding, I am averse to triple distilling my bourbons mainly because I believe it will strip the flavor I've worked so hard to develop.

[fizzix]

Nice build, 'Winger!

[StillerBoy]

Could be true Mars, I do tend to like my tails. Much different for white or aged spirit and I wrote that thinking of aged. But I could also be off by a couple percent and it would be a large cumulative difference. Some of my ferments get higher and I’ll have to either run long stripping to dilute my low wines or I will come out high on spirit runs. Also keep in mind if I am light on heads I’ll be getting a lower aggregate with conservative cuts, if I recycle my feints into an all feints run I’m never too concerned about where I make my cuts. And I’m still experimenting with cuts but those numbers were right where the last bourbon run got me.

Here's where the issue created confusing.. you state is this responds " I wrote that thinking of aged", but it was never mention in the prior post.. so someone new to the hobby, it would be misleading.. and from the overall statement above, your process from batch to batch is always different.. so how do you go about reproducing the same product on a regular base, cause there some truth to the madness stated, but it does not apply everywhere and you don't stated where and why, which will lead new comer to be confused..

I'm more confused now than before.. and please explain what you mean as stated as "Also keep in mind if I am light on heads I’ll be getting a lower aggregate with conservative cuts".. cause certainly done see it that way or have I experience it that way..

I am averse to triple distilling my bourbons mainly because I believe it will strip the flavor I've worked so hard to develop.

You are correct in your in belief that a triple distillation will reduce some flavor, and lower the overall Ph of the finish product..

Mars

[82Winger]

I really do appreciate all the help here. So I will be in the market for more grains. Do you find your supplies at a local store near you or online? When I bought my last grains they brought little black bugs in the house. Needless to say the wife was pissed!!!
Are you guys also recommending that when I get ready to distill that I make a stripping run without the thumper?

[StillerBoy]

Are you guys also recommending that when I get ready to distill that I make a stripping run without the thumper?

Winger.. in some ways yes.. there so many different way of making a finished product.. just my take on this, but the most common way is a stripped run then follow by a spirit one.. if you are after flavour, the strip run is run down in the low 30% abv overall average.. for neutral, the run is cut back some to an overall average of 50% abv..

From there, there are many options again.. since you a have a thumper, one option is to add some wort, another is to add backset, another one is low wine, and also in different amounts.. as you can see, there's many option, and that is based on the finish product you want.. so one starts with the product one wants to have, and work backward from there..

As to wanting to redo the grain bill and want some clean grain,, buy from BS or food processors who sell in bulk.. animal feed is not clean or handled as the same level as for human consumption..

Mars

[Twisted Brick]

you might even have local options in IN; retail bulk grain as well as grain mills willing to sell direct to the consumer. You lucky dog.

[pope]

Okay let me unwind that a bit. I did lay those numbers out like absolutes and I think you're right to call it out because putting numbers in front of the whole audience here can lead a lot of people astray. Those are rule-of-thumb numbers that work for me, and if you drill down and say 'i'm going x far into my heads for brandy and y far into my tails for rum' obviously the same three abv's can't work for every spirit. BUT I would say generally that for given styles coming up with your own numbers for aggregate abv in the wash/mash and low wines can help seek out benchmarks of your own making for no-dilution spirit cuts.

I could go back and x-out the numbers from my earlier post if y'all think it's a bit of a landmine for noobs.

For my statement about more conservative cuts I just meant if I'm going for 'x' abv from a set of 20 jars, I could get it from a wide cut or I could get it from a narrow cut if the average abv of the combined heads & tails jars I add or don't add is the same as the tighter of the two cuts. IE lets say for simplicity's sake I take 15 of 20 jars or 75%, vs 10 jars/50%. If the five I do or don't take are a blend of heads and tails that average out to the same abv of the 10, then either way I can achieve the same abv final cut. I'm not saying it works out that simply in the real world, but that was what I was alluding to in my earlier statement.

[cayars]

You just covered it here.

[Durhommer]

VERY NICE RIG FROM THE OP

[pope]

Carlo, I did but I also hate to ever have incomplete/confusing thoughts in a post, I know back in the day when I got started making things (not just spirits but general craftiness), I had a bad habit of skimming, grabbing an answer I liked/that sounded good, and going with it. If someone read halfway they might like my numbers and try to make them fit in an absolute kind of way. But at least I tried explaining myself

[StillerBoy]

and I think you're right to call it out because putting numbers in front of the whole audience here can lead a lot of people astray.

Thanks pope..

We post many time without considering that not everyone reading the thread has the necessary level of comprehension to understand was is state or experience to make sense of it.. and that leads to answering question that shouldn't have been asked..

Mars

[pope]

Yea it's tricky. I think threads that flow with a little 'thinking out loud' can be good for us but probably are just damn confusing for new distillers. The whole point I was thinking of is trying to drive home the 'you don't need super high gravity ferment to get strong liquor', which also relates to creating an ideal abv finished 2x distilled product with minimum dilution. Hopefully anyone who reads my numbers reads to the end!

I've been keeping better notes lately, once I've got more variety under my belt I might start a fresh thread talking about some of my above chatter.