Basic question about condensers

[Warno]

Does it matter if the vapor path flows through the water (worm, shotgun, ect.) or if the water flows through the vapor path (dimroth, cold finger, ect.)?

Is it simply about the total cold surface area available to bring the vapor back to liquid?

I'm thinking about building a new condenser with a water jacketed outer shell like a liebig but with a coil wrapped cold finger inside it. When I started thinking about this design I started looking on here and came across a similar design. I'll try to find it again but just wanted to ask if this would work.

Here is what came across
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=59998&sid=365cf6bc ... 0ce8626f2b

[Chauncey]

Each of the condenser types performs at a different level.of efficiency, and they have to be sized properly for the type. So it matters to some degree, you wouldn't want too large a bore vapor tube, nor too small ofr one for a liebig type condenser which is why the standard is generally recommended as 1/2 inside 3/4 and 36 to 39 inches length. I hope that answers the question im pretty drunk

And yes i believe that condenser worked according to the thread. Not sure what the ideal sizes would.be nor what the knockdown power is

[acfixer69]

A simple answer is it needs to be counter flow. If the hottest vapor meets the coldest water first the vapor will collapse violently and causes huffing and surging in the condenser.

[Chauncey]

That being said, i recommend a shotgun for a pc or a dmiroth like otisT built. Or even a worm. They seem.to be the most efficient for this purpose ime.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=70230

Link to Said dimroth by otis

[Warno]

I just recently built a shotgun but who doesn't like options given the means to build other peices. I started thinking about the dimroth style condenser then had the thought about putting it in a water jacketed shell. Everything would be in a cross flow configuration. With the pot being 30 gallons and heated with propane I just wasn't sure about the size to make everything.

[Mr Sippy]

I built the same condenser following Brutal. I strip at full power (5500W) using a trickle at first to a light stream at end. My water enters the condenser at 55F, drain to waste. In the config the water travels counter flow to vapor in both outer shell and inner tube.

It is 20 in long from vapor inlet to 1st cold water exit. I have a feeling that alone is enough without any add'l water flow and the inner tube just lowers the condensate temp a little more. But that's only a guess. Its the only condenser I have and am quite satisfied with it.

[OtisT]

Warno, are you talking about a product condenser, or reflux? I believe you are talking about using this for a product condenser.

One issue with a dimroth condenser used as a product condenser like the one I use is that at high power, it is more challenging to produce cold distillate. The outer shell is not cooled so vapor heats it up. Vapor is condensed to a cold liquid and drops onto the lower section of the shell and cools it. (Hot on top, cold on the bottom). For spirit runs the output is cold for the entire run. When stripping, the output starts getting warm at about 3500-4000 watts and is very warm at 5500 watts. I don’t see it as a problem at all because I don’t care if my low wines are warm?

A cooled shell would definitely address this. It would not have to be a liebig type jacket. Running water through a few winds of copper tubing soldered to lower section of the other shell could also address the issue.

You can see the dimroth design I am referring in the link in my signature below.

While it was not the same application, I did make a double condenser out of a liebig that shows an example of what I mean by soldering a few winds of copper tubing to a shell. Look at the post on vacuum line cooling in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=73858

Otis

[Warno]

I think I'm going to attemp it. I've got an idea on my head I'll try to draw it up and post a picture of what I'm thinking.

[Warno]

Warno, are you talking about a product condenser, or reflux? I believe you are talking about using this for a product condenser.

Yes my intentions are to use this as the product condenser.

[pope]

You've got the skills, why not build another shotgun? They're compact and effective. I have been using a 1-1/2" OD x 20" long shotgun I made that is four 3/8" lengths of inner tubes, and for my speed on spirit runs, it works just fine for my 15 gal x 5500w boiler (granted I am below 8 amps through the bulk of the run). I am sure with enough water flow it would handle a stripping run. Looking forward to the drawing!

[Warno]

You've got the skills, why not build another shotgun? They're compact and effective. I have been using a 1-1/2" OD x 20" long shotgun I made that is four 3/8" lengths of inner tubes, and for my speed on spirit runs, it works just fine for my 15 gal x 5500w boiler (granted I am below 8 amps through the bulk of the run). I am sure with enough water flow it would handle a stripping run. Looking forward to the drawing!

Already built the shotgun just wanting to try something different. But not as bulky as a worm in barrel. That's all.

[Warno]

Here's my poorly drawn drawing.

The inner shell will be 3" sanitary stainless steel. The outer shell will be 4" sanitary stainless. With measurements taken today that will give me about a 3/8" gap all the way around the inner shell that water will circulate. The cold finger down will be 1" copper and the coil up will be either 1/2" or 3/8" copper wound up and exiting the top cap next to the cold finger inlet. The product vapor inlet will be 2" sanitary stainless. And product collection will be an adapter I made that necks down to 1" copper.

Not sure if I want to water jacket the whole length of the shell or just the lower half.

[Chauncey]

Looks like a legit design. A coil around the outside would be the way id go if using a copper housing but id you got the skills, i think your way is better. I cant weld personally but i should learn soon.

[acfixer69]

OK, I have got to ask. Why do you want to make something so simple and make it so difficult to make for no gain. The leak potential with that is major.
We all have interest,s but hell let,s not beat our self.

[Warno]

OK, I have got to ask. Why do you want to make something so simple and make it so difficult to make for no gain. The leak potential with that is major.
We all have interest,s but hell let,s not beat our self.

Why is the leak potential major?

The inner shell technically only has one spot for a leak being it's a solid piece of tubing other than the product inlet point. The cold finger and coil wrap being all copper will all be sweat together just like any other joint.

I understand it's kind of elaborate but I'm not sure I follow your thoughts on the leak potential.

[Twisted Brick]

OK, I have got to ask. Why do you want to make something so simple and make it so difficult to make for no gain. The leak potential with that is major.
We all have interest,s but hell let,s not beat our self.

Early on I believed I could build a better condenser via a novel combination of proven components, assembled to create efficiencies at each stage of the condensing process. Kind of like your design. Who can argue with the effectiveness of a coil, a cold-finger, and a water-jacket? All in a nice, compact package?

I (thought I) thought of every possible hybrid combination, but the more research I did on basic condenser design, performance and specs the more I realized it was gonna be difficult to beat existing condenser effectiveness. That, and if I did miraculously come up with a better design, it might be only marginally more efficient and could be difficult to build.

So kudos to you and your desire to push the envelope. There's no question your condenser will work, but like a lot of successful one-off designs here on HD, yours might not be for everybody.

Here are a couple of projects that mirror yours. At one point I seriously thought of building a jacketed condenser like (yours) Pint's, but even though it proved wildly effective, it was overkill and did not scale well to the size of the hobby stills we run.

viewtopic.php?t=5697

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5705

After a couple of years of stilling, and numerous unsuccessful attempts at overpowering my shotgun, (40k btus, or 11kw) I am convinced it is the most efficient, space-saving condenser out there, especially since it is now easy-peasy to whip together.

Twisted Brick

[Warno]

Well damn, that makes alot of sense. The customer of mine did say they'd like to build an all copper shotgun maybe I'll just stick to that route.

[still_stirrin]

Not sure if I want to water jacket the whole length of the shell or just the lower half.

What you’ve drawn is a concentric with a cold finger and coil condenser. It exhibits much conduction surface area for the vapor to condense upon and as such, will be very effective....except that stainless steel is not near as good of conductor of heat as is copper. If you built this out of copper it would be even more efficient.

My combination LM/VM reflux head has a concentric reflux condenser like you’ve drawn. I don’t have a cold finger and coil in the core, but I do have a couple of copper scrubbies stuffed in there. The scrubbies increase the conducting surface that the vapor touches and the copper pulls the heat out to the jacket walls. The condensate drips along the walls down to a concentric liquid collection cup (see Rad’s concentric apartment still design) and is either drained to the product Liebig or returned to the column down the central vapor tube.

The concentric condenser is a simple design as it resembles a Liebig condenser that has been cut in half with the water jacket sealed where cut. I like the design and function especially when used in conjunction with the annular liquid collection cup.

Of note, in the combo LM/VM head design, there is a branch Tee located below the concentric’s vapor tube & annular collection cup. So the reflux condenser causes the collected condensate to simply spill back down the center of the column. It works for both liquid managed and vapor managed reflux.
ss

[Warno]

I've been doing alittle more digging around on here and found this.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=44788&hilit=Cold+finger

This is exactly what I was thinking about building as far as the coil goes.

[pope]

Wow triple?? I did a 2” double w/cold finger for my boka which I’m no longer using, I would love to do something else with it, interested to see your results.

[Warno]

Wow triple?? I did a 2” double w/cold finger for my boka which I’m no longer using, I would love to do something else with it, interested to see your results.

I was hoping to use this setup as a product condenser. Still not sure if I'm going to hop through with it. Just kicking ideas around.

[pope]

I’ve thought about using mine as a product condenser. I could probably use it as a liquid heat exchanger, the inner coil will stay full because the entry is all up top it’s just not a lot of area. I hope you make the product condenser with a triple coil cold finger just so I can see!! But also hopefully so it works well for you.

[The Baker]

Wow triple?? I did a 2” double w/cold finger for my boka which I’m no longer using, I would love to do something else with it, interested to see your results.

Hi, Pope,
I am interested in why you aren't using the boka now.
It's something I had thought of setting up for myself...

thanks,

Geoff

[pope]

Geoff, I made a 4” flute and I’m trying to get it tall enough to run with lava rock or packing and get to azeo. The boka works great, I’m just trying to streamline and maybe pick up the pace a little.

[The Baker]

Geoff, I made a 4” flute and I’m trying to get it tall enough to run with lava rock or packing and get to azeo. The boka works great, I’m just trying to streamline and maybe pick up the pace a little.

Thanks, pope.

Geoff

[heynonny]

I still (!) swear by this: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12059

Hard as i push the still, (within reason), the long one can handle pretty much anything. It'll work at flatter than 45º.

The ½ lengthed one almost as good.

-hey-

(be 74 in a week!)

[The Baker]

I still (!) swear by this: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12059

Hard as i push the still, (within reason), the long one can handle pretty much anything. It'll work at flatter than 45º.

The ½ lengthed one almost as good.

-hey-

(be 74 in a week!)

I guess you will catch up on me one day but I am not rushing it.

Geoff