Install heating element vs readymade Turbo Boiler

[cayars]

Problem, is you just don't have enough alcohol in the boiler to get decent amounts out to make cuts easier. Same thing we've discussed before, where the bigger the boiler the easier cuts become. Same with 1 spirit run with a keg boiler boiler vs 3 to 4 runs with a 5 gallon boiler. Boiler size matters.

[Slow42]

Just out of curiosity who is the inventor of the turbo 500 stills?

[NJen]

New Zealand, lol.

[Slow42]

Thanks NJen but that’s a country, lol.

[NJen]

Stillspirits company out of NZ. A subsidiary of BSGi NZ Ltd.

Can't find much more information than that. No names, anyway.

[NZChris]

Problem, is you just don't have enough alcohol in the boiler to get decent amounts out to make cuts easier. Same thing we've discussed before, where the bigger the boiler the easier cuts become. Same with 1 spirit run with a keg boiler boiler vs 3 to 4 runs with a 5 gallon boiler. Boiler size matters.

Rubbish. The problem with small stills is the smaller reward for the same amount of effort. If you use the same number of cut jars and put the same amount effort and skill into choosing your cut, you shouldn't have any problem producing fine product. If you are not using the same number of cut jars and not doing your cuts properly, you can't blame the size of the still for your poor results.

[cayars]

Doesn't work that way. For example if you've already stripped your ferments to low wines and now have 12 gallons to do spirit runs on.

One still will require about 20 spirit runs (34 full) and one still 1 run (3/4). So that a minimum of 40 cuts vs 2 in order to get your hearts. One still will have mere mL of hearts in each batch ASSUMING you changed jars at precisely the correct time (unlikely) and one will have gallons between the cuts. The small still will have more heads & tails smeared in the hearts while the bigger still will have more pure hearts with the very center section nearly free of heads & tails. It just the physics of the stills themselves. The bigger the still the longer the run and the purer and easier heads to hearts and hearts to tails become with much more leeway of choose late heads and early hearts because the transition from jar to jar is so much smaller.

[NJen]

I dunno guys.. Personally I have found that the smaller still I use, the easier it is for me to decide on my cuts, obviously to a certain extent. Now adays I use a 10gal pot for my spirit runs, and a keg for stripping. I have found that the smaller amount I start with the easier my cuts are to determine.

When I first started getting into distilling, a friend of mine had a 40gal boiler that we ran together a number of times, and I found it almost impossible to determine any cuts on a spirit run. (took about 5 runs for a spirit run charge) That's when I built my 10g pot and we started running the strip from the 40g through the 10g (about 7gal low wines 35-40% per strip), and I've found cuts to be a pretty simple thing since then. I figured something along the lines of a "finishing still".

I prefer to go pretty small with the spirit run charge, because it seems (at least for me) to be easier to make my cuts. This may be only my own perception, and I may be mistaken as I haven't run such a big boiler in close to 4 years now, but I sure like a small still for good cuts. YMMV

[charcoal]

Here's the thing. With a 4 liter Airstill there really isn't cuts being done properly. The still is just to small to give you the control you need to make them. I'm sure you think you're doing cuts but with a bigger still you'll understand just how bad your Airstill cuts were (if any).

Only if you follow the instructions that come with the Airstill. If you are prepared to get off your arse and swap the collection bottles as many times as you would running a 40l charge, the results should be nowhere near as different as your mentor told you or you are imagining.

Not a very nice tone to reply. Please keep it civil.

[charcoal]

Just out of curiosity who is the inventor of the turbo 500 stills?

Someone in NZ as already stated.

https://copperheadstill.co.nz seems to be a clone. The boiler is also called Mangrove Jacks and some other names.

Still spirits have made Still made of Aluminium and stills which does not have a gasket

Their older model is sold as the essencia Express Still http://www.essencia.co.nz/Distilling.htm

This is a strange looking still with maybe two dephlagmators

http://www.spiritsunlimited.co.nz/still ... still-h104

https://www.brewerschoice.net.au/conten ... t_560.jpeg

All these stills can be seen on used items websites in Australia as well.

[cayars]

I dunno guys.. Personally I have found that the smaller still I use, the easier it is for me to decide on my cuts, obviously to a certain extent. Now adays I use a 10gal pot for my spirit runs, and a keg for stripping. I have found that the smaller amount I start with the easier my cuts are to determine.

When I first started getting into distilling, a friend of mine had a 40gal boiler that we ran together a number of times, and I found it almost impossible to determine any cuts on a spirit run. (took about 5 runs for a spirit run charge) That's when I built my 10g pot and we started running the strip from the 40g through the 10g (about 7gal low wines 35-40% per strip), and I've found cuts to be a pretty simple thing since then. I figured something along the lines of a "finishing still".

I prefer to go pretty small with the spirit run charge, because it seems (at least for me) to be easier to make my cuts. This may be only my own perception, and I may be mistaken as I haven't run such a big boiler in close to 4 years now, but I sure like a small still for good cuts. YMMV

That's kind of counter culture to what most experienced distillers find I talk to. Maybe your smaller still actually produces better spirits then the bigger still due to it's materials, craftsmanship, design or method of heating. If you were using the 40 gallon boiler you would really have needed 100 to 120 gallons of ferment to strip in order to fill your boiler properly for the spirit run. If you are just stripping 40ish gallons then turning around running those in the big boiler you are doing yourself a disservice and there is no advantage to the bigger still but only disadvantages for a spirit run.

In any event, not to be an ass, but if you can't determine cuts properly on any run from any still, something is wrong. It's either got a bad design, is being driven to hard (like with propane), is smearing product, or has materials in it that is tainting the product. Another very real possibility is that the bigger still isn't given the TLC you give the smaller still when running.

But if you are trying to make X amount of finished product you can roughly figure you will need 10 to 16 times the product in low wines. You will need roughly 3 times that in ferment to arrive at the low wines. So if you wanted to make 2 gallons of whiskey you would need roughly 20 to 30 gallons of low wines. Would you rather load up an Airstill 3/4 full and do 30 to 40 distillation runs of those low wines? How about 3 or 4 runs on a 10 gallon still?

Imagine all the smelling and tasting you would need to do for 3 or 4 sets of jars with the 10 gallon still. Now imagine doing that 10 times over trying to pick what jars to blend for the 1 gallon still. Even just tiny sips and you would be sipping so much your taste buds will be shot and you'll be doing bad blends (probably a bit tipsy as well). Now imagine running this all through one 40 gallon still where you only need to make two cuts (heads to hearts and hearts to tails). There will be a SLOW progression from jar to jar making the cutoff point much easier to find with far less smearing between jars. EASY and your taste buds won't get blow out either.

I've got 1, 5, 13 & 15.5 boilers and each increase in size produces better spirits then the smaller size when loaded 3/4 full. This spring I'm moving up even bigger to a 26 gallon boiler for even better spirits and less cuts to make. A 26 gallon boiler with a 15.5 thumper will make stripping easy as well but long. I'll also be able to run a couple stills or mashing at the same time to keep from being bored.

[NJen]

I imagine it's probably a combination of a number of variables. My 10g still is made of copper and is kind of oval shape with straight walls, whereas the 40g still was SS and bell shaped. On the big still, we ran propane, on my 10g I use NG. I've since come far enough I'm confident I could determine cuts well enough with the larger still, but like I said it was one of the first stills I ran, and we probably ran it 20 times tops. I've since used my 10g boiler for nearly 4 years now, and I think a lot of it was just I was still learning, but basically when we ran the big still everything but what I would consider my foreshots, and maybe a very small heads cut, smelled almost exactly the same, and the taste wasn't a huge difference through and through either, up until noticable visible tails.

I made sure to include those details specifically because I am am clearly not as experienced as you guys, just trying to provide my input and a bit of history.

I do think, from what I recall of the spirits I made then, that I could probably have cut them fairly easily, but I remember that it all smelled and tasted very similar, even after a day or two of airing to my novice senses.

We were using the big still to try and do a spirit run in also. As I said I ended up building the small still to become a finishing still for that larger still, but now it's basically my primary with a keg for stripping. Anyways, my distilling experience has increased greatly since then, but from what I could remember just trying to provide information about how my cuts seemed (albeit from a newbie at the time) while running through a large compared to a small, still at the time; while taking into account what I now know.

That being said, when I first built my 10g rig, the cuts were noticeably easier for me to make, which could easily have been contributed to by a variety of factors, including those above.

[NZChris]

Doesn't work that way. For example if you've already stripped your ferments to low wines and now have 12 gallons to do spirit runs on.

One still will require about 20 spirit runs (34 full) and one still 1 run (3/4). So that a minimum of 40 cuts vs 2 in order to get your hearts. One still will have mere mL of hearts in each batch ASSUMING you changed jars at precisely the correct time (unlikely) and one will have gallons between the cuts.

Nobody is saying that you should do large quantities through a small still.

The small still will have more heads & tails smeared in the hearts while the bigger still will have more pure hearts with the very center section nearly free of heads & tails. It just the physics of the stills themselves. The bigger the still the longer the run and the purer and easier heads to hearts and hearts to tails become with much more leeway of choose late heads and early hearts because the transition from jar to jar is so much smaller.

Only if you run it too hard. You are trying to blame poor outcomes on the still size, when the fault is with the operator. If you have too much smearing, slow down. If you are running the same pencil sized stream for both your main pot and your mini still, you'll get the results you deserve.

[charcoal]

I finally drilled the hole

Cooling arrangement when drilling.


Drill bit set I used



Finally a hole.



Steel is hard to drill. That is the reason Stalin chose the name Stalin

[cayars]

Nobody is saying that you should do large quantities through a small still.

Well, if you are setting out to make a gallon or two of finished spirit the finished product dictates how much you will have to run and that means lot of runs on a small still. So for example if you want a gallon of finished spirit you will likely have to run 10+ gallons of low wines (regardless of still used).

Only if you run it too hard. You are trying to blame poor outcomes on the still size, when the fault is with the operator. If you have too much smearing, slow down. If you are running the same pencil sized stream for both your main pot and your mini still, you'll get the results you deserve.

You don't see the BIG PICTURE. If you have ten gallons of low wines that need to be processed you have MANY MULTIPLE runs. EACH OF THOSE runs will have far more transition between jars then if you ran the whole thing on a bigger still with much less transition between jars (using same size jars). On the bigger still you only need to make 2 cuts using jars that transition far less between jars making this easy. With the small still processing 10 gallons you have many (20+) cuts to make using jars with much greater transition between them. In either situation 1 gallon of finished spirit will need to be cut from the jars.

The bigger still will end up with much cleaner center hearts jars simply because the heads and tails are so many jars away from it. You don't get this with multiple runs on a small still as every run will turn out roughly the same way. It will also be much easier to include late heads or early tails with the bigger still if this is wanted for flavor.

[NZChris]

Nobody is saying that you should do large quantities through a small still.

[cayars]

Chris go back and look at the post you responded to with the "Rubbish" comment. It explained why you would have to run large quantities through a small still. Or like I've commented in a couple replys to you in this thread already. To make X amount of product you have to run Y amount of low wines. No getting around that. If you can process Y wines in one pass so be it. If it takes 20 runs then that's what it takes. Boiler size DOES come into play when you want to make X amount of product.

[Slow42]

Take a chill pill guys. Everyone has and opinion and there are many ways to skin a cat as they say. Not use what that really means. you both are very experienced distillers and you don’t have to agree on everything. But come on this is a hobby not boxing rink.

[NZChris]

Chill out, Slow42. It's a forum. You put your thoughts out there and it's up to the readers to investigate whether or not they should act on what they read. I would never take any advice from any forum or Youtuber as gospel truth without further investigation.

BTW, I've recently calculated the cut jar size for my next mini still spirit run, the smallest experimental run I've ever done. 20ml. The weather has been too hot to spend the time in the shed to do it or it would have been done already. And yes, I will be there to swap measuring cylinders for however long it takes until shut down. ABVs will be taken using one of the mini alcometers from the Ukraine you might have seen discussed on the forum. The final blend will be chosen using the same method I use for any flavored product out of my main pot still.

[charcoal]

I have ordered an Internal heater + PID controller. Total with drill bit cost me a bit under 100 AUD.

Will let you people know the results in a week or so.

[NZChris]

Congratulations on drilling the hole OK . I hate drilling large holes in SS.

[charcoal]

Steel is hard but I guess I would be happy with the result. And with the thermometer and the top pipes removed, it looks like another steel pot from Kmart.

https://www.kmart.com.au/product/15l-st ... ot/1358303

I hope I can get at least the heater by Saturday. My single 30 L run took 7 hours on a 1500W Kmart hot plate. I managed to cut it down somewhat by placing the boiler on both the elements.

This boiler also doubles up as my fermenting vessel. I transfer my clear wash to it. But with such a hole in it, I cannot start a new batch and need to wait for Mr Postman!

[NZChris]

To speed it up, insulate it.

Have you been watching the Amps drawn by the hot plate? Many of them have an internal thermostat that switches off the largest element, cutting the Watts in half.

[charcoal]

Thanks. Bought some insulation. This should come in the next 25 days or so.

As I distill indoors, I should be able to manage till then.

My hot plate clicks on and off, it is a cheap one from Kmart. I don't have any equipment which can measure that many Amps. I may still use the hot plate in conjunction with my internal element. This should give me an initial power of 3600 watt(1400+2200).

[Saltbush Bill]

You cant distill properly with a thermostate clicking on and off........no still will work properly like that.

[charcoal]

I managed OK. The boiler keeps on working for minutes even after I switch it off. The boiler temperature and also the vapour temperature does not get much hotter or colder even if switch it off. Alcohol keeps dripping. Actually Kegland does sell a controller which is a thermostat type device.

I guess it it is the liquid trapped in the mesh that keeps it running until the heat comes back on.

Do you use Electricity or gas?

[Saltbush Bill]

No amount of reasons why it might work change the facts........it doesn't work.....and that is all there is to that.
You need constant power/ energy input to a boiler.

Do you use Electricity or gas?

Both, it depends on what still and or boiler im using at the time. My most used boiler is gas powered.

[cayars]

But it does work just as he says it does. I've got an electric hot plate I can use with one of my smaller stills that turns on or off and it works pretty well. Hot plates are used by many with decent results. The thermal mass of the fluid doesn't instantly change when you add or remove heat. It depends on how fast the heater element is turning on or off and if it's keeping the fluid at temp.

It's better to say it's not ideal as I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but you can't say something won't/can't work when far to many people do exactly this and it does/can work depending on the speed the element switches states.

[shadylane]

Here's the thing. With a 4 liter Airstill there really isn't cuts being done properly. The still is just to small to give you the control you need to make them. I'm sure you think you're doing cuts but with a bigger still you'll understand just how bad your Airstill cuts were (if any).

Ya can learn more running 50 different recipes in a 1 gallon pot
Than you can running a 50 gallon pot once
Plus the little still can supply a variety of alcohol, while your building a bigger rig

[Saltbush Bill]

Cayars hot plates with thermostats are used by newbies who know no better......no experienced Distiller would ever consider using a thermostate operated hot plate under a boiler. Statements like the one you have just made lead other newbies down a path that eventually leads to more trouble.
If you really believe its acceptable to run a still using a thermostate your a bigger fool than I thought you were.
Please show me where these many people using hot plates with thermostats are.