...We have learned a few things. Feel free to disagree, but I feel like these things have been consistently true for us
1. Birdwatchers really is the smoothest recipe we have done. Our friends and family pretty much all get their vodka from us, because it is arguable whether or not you can buy better, and not arguable that the price point to do so would be ridiculous. If you haven't made one, and like vodka...do it.
2. After trying various yeasts, our favorite is plain ol' bakers yeast. Both Fleischmann's and Red Star seemed to turn out a reliably better product than the Turbo (of course) and the DADY (surprise).
3. Starting the yeast before pitching it seems to make no difference in the end, neither does stirring the yeast or just sprinkling it on top. It makes a difference as to how active it is the first night, but seems to make no difference over the week or so of fermenting.
4. Double distilling DID improve the flavor, but probably not enough to warrant the trouble of distilling it all over again. We set up a tasting with 10 of my friends and family, and tried several different batches several different ways, and this was probably the only thing that consistently made a difference in the overall quality with almost everyone preferring the double distilled, but almost no one said it was a big difference.
5. Clearing the wash seemed to do nothing. Seriously. There didn't seem to be any difference whatsoever on 3 washes that were properly cleared, (1 of which was even filtered) and 3 washes (along with every subsequent wash) that was just dumped in the distiller. On our taste taste, quite literally no one could consistently pick which batches were cleared and which were just dumped in the distiller and ran. Do it if it makes you feel better, but none of us were able to tell a difference at all. Maybe someone with a more refined palate could. I dunno, your mileage may vary, but I would suggest trying a batch or two where you just throw it in and be done with it. I doubt you will taste any difference. If it makes any difference, we are running a Turbo 500 reflux still which consistently turns out 187-189 proof on the first run, and very little flavor comes through.
6. When cutting the BW into different flavors if you want to do something other than just 80 proof vodka, 35 proof seems to be the sweet spot Any higher and the girls don't seem to like it, any lower and they just suck it down and you are out too quick. Again, YMMV, but this has been our experience.
Anyway, right, wrong or indifferent, this is what we have found so far. Any suggestions, criticism or argument is more than welcome. I hope this helps some other nooby like myself!
After our 15th Birdwatchers...
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Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
Assuming you were refluxing this correct?
The biggest advantage to double distilling it is that the first run isn't done under reflux but pot still mode pretty much balls to the walls fast strip. This save you time as well as help you get a better product. This first pass isn't made for drinking (will taste bad) but for consolidating your alcohol and to make the spirit run quicker (vs process everything as a spirit run).
8 to 10% in the boiler after stripping will be 35% or so stripped. So you can run 3 or 4 strip runs FAST then load up the 35% in to the boiler for the slower spirit run done under reflux. This will give you more product as you start with much higher ABV and will make cuts easier.
You should also try a wheat based ferment or maybe a mixed grain/sugar recipe without the additional nutrients (in the grains). Add some oatmeal as well which won't do much for flavor but will give you some texture/mouthfeel in your vodka. Everyone I've let sample sugar/tomato washes vs grains or wheat based sugar washes prefers the latter.
Clearing a wash can change the flavor and make it cleaner tasting. This can be good or bad depending on the spirit being made so don't assume you never want to do it. Also helps to keep from burning in some boilers depending on the setup and how dirty it was.
The biggest advantage to double distilling it is that the first run isn't done under reflux but pot still mode pretty much balls to the walls fast strip. This save you time as well as help you get a better product. This first pass isn't made for drinking (will taste bad) but for consolidating your alcohol and to make the spirit run quicker (vs process everything as a spirit run).
8 to 10% in the boiler after stripping will be 35% or so stripped. So you can run 3 or 4 strip runs FAST then load up the 35% in to the boiler for the slower spirit run done under reflux. This will give you more product as you start with much higher ABV and will make cuts easier.
You should also try a wheat based ferment or maybe a mixed grain/sugar recipe without the additional nutrients (in the grains). Add some oatmeal as well which won't do much for flavor but will give you some texture/mouthfeel in your vodka. Everyone I've let sample sugar/tomato washes vs grains or wheat based sugar washes prefers the latter.
Clearing a wash can change the flavor and make it cleaner tasting. This can be good or bad depending on the spirit being made so don't assume you never want to do it. Also helps to keep from burning in some boilers depending on the setup and how dirty it was.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
"Assuming you were refluxing this correct?"
Yes. It comes out at a consistent 187-189 so probably isnt bringing much flavor with it.
That makes good sense about the double distilling. It DID improve the flavor, but like I said, it was very very slight.
"You should also try a wheat based ferment or maybe a mixed grain/sugar recipe without the additional nutrients (in the grains). Add some oatmeal as well which won't do much for flavor but will give you some texture/mouthfeel in your vodka. Everyone I've let sample sugar/tomato washes vs grains or wheat based sugar washes prefers the latter."
Hell yes. We are getting more adventurous as we go, and I would very much like to try this. Any links to a tried and true recipe to give a shot? We are going to do a rum next, but I would really like to try your suggestion.
"Clearing a wash can change the flavor and make it cleaner tasting."
I have no doubt that it is beneficial, I am speaking specifically about BW though, and it truly doesn't seem to change the flavor at all. Not one person in 10 that was doing our tasting could consistently pick it out. That said, I will definitely be clearing other wash/mash.
Yes. It comes out at a consistent 187-189 so probably isnt bringing much flavor with it.
That makes good sense about the double distilling. It DID improve the flavor, but like I said, it was very very slight.
"You should also try a wheat based ferment or maybe a mixed grain/sugar recipe without the additional nutrients (in the grains). Add some oatmeal as well which won't do much for flavor but will give you some texture/mouthfeel in your vodka. Everyone I've let sample sugar/tomato washes vs grains or wheat based sugar washes prefers the latter."
Hell yes. We are getting more adventurous as we go, and I would very much like to try this. Any links to a tried and true recipe to give a shot? We are going to do a rum next, but I would really like to try your suggestion.
"Clearing a wash can change the flavor and make it cleaner tasting."
I have no doubt that it is beneficial, I am speaking specifically about BW though, and it truly doesn't seem to change the flavor at all. Not one person in 10 that was doing our tasting could consistently pick it out. That said, I will definitely be clearing other wash/mash.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
To make a good wheat based vodka you would want to use wheat grains which maybe you don't want to do yet???
You could always do something like a sugar wash using wheat bran for flavor. This would be similar to Birdwatchers from a preparation/fermenting standpoint. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=56998 is one way to do this.
When you're ready to play with grains hit me up for my vodka recipe.
Concerning the clearing the wash. Since you were only doing a sugar wash there really wasn't anything to clear. Maybe some yeast floating around but no pieces of grain or anything to worry about. When you get into grain mashes you'll see the difference.
You could always do something like a sugar wash using wheat bran for flavor. This would be similar to Birdwatchers from a preparation/fermenting standpoint. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=56998 is one way to do this.
When you're ready to play with grains hit me up for my vodka recipe.
Concerning the clearing the wash. Since you were only doing a sugar wash there really wasn't anything to clear. Maybe some yeast floating around but no pieces of grain or anything to worry about. When you get into grain mashes you'll see the difference.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
Ted's fast fermenting vodka and rad's all bran come to mind. I love hearing these success stories.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
Thanks fellas. After I do the rum, I will give some grain vodka a try. My wife has a soft spot for spiced rum, so we are going to try to nail one down.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
It seems to be the consensus that clearing a wash, particularly with grains, leads to a better product. That said, I am completely novice to grains, so I cannot speak with any authority.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
A consensus isn't worth much if it's just newbies agreeing with other newbies.
Many distillers of fine whiskeys distill on the grain and you can't get much further away from cleared than that. I would assume that they aren't stupid. Look up the websites of those that you consider are distillers of fine product and see what they do.
Many distillers of fine whiskeys distill on the grain and you can't get much further away from cleared than that. I would assume that they aren't stupid. Look up the websites of those that you consider are distillers of fine product and see what they do.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
Yeah the only reason I clear washes is because i have an electric rig and I've burned out an element before with stuff sticking to it. Actually, the element melted through the bottom of the boiler and hot wash leaked through the electricals and all over the floor.
I've used Birdwatches a few times. I quite like it run slowly once through a pot still and I use that to blend into liqueurs and such. I'll double distill it and use it to fortify ports and things too. The flavors in birdwatchers get buried if your blending with other things, or even aging on wood.
Right now I happen to be drinking a birdwatchers where I used brown sugar and yellow sugar for half the sugar load. I ran it like an agricole rum, collecting everything but the early heads, and stopping when the total proof hit 80. I then put it on some used oak for a few weeks and it has this light amber hue and very subtle molasses aroma.
I've used Birdwatches a few times. I quite like it run slowly once through a pot still and I use that to blend into liqueurs and such. I'll double distill it and use it to fortify ports and things too. The flavors in birdwatchers get buried if your blending with other things, or even aging on wood.
Right now I happen to be drinking a birdwatchers where I used brown sugar and yellow sugar for half the sugar load. I ran it like an agricole rum, collecting everything but the early heads, and stopping when the total proof hit 80. I then put it on some used oak for a few weeks and it has this light amber hue and very subtle molasses aroma.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
I wouldn't call it a consensus of newbs but of experienced distillers who've been down this path too many times and know what works and what doesn't or just not worth chancing it.
Clearing a grain mash is way different than a sugar wash such as BW. Having some yeast trapped in suspension is FAR, FAR different than grains. Short of dumping the BW trub into the boiler the yeast in suspension isn't going to be problem as it's thin (in most stills).
Depending on YOUR STILL and the type of heating, clearing the mash can make the difference between scorching or successful spirits when grains are present during the ferment. It can make the difference of burning out elements besides just scorching.
Commercial distillers don't usually direct heat grains or grain particles in the still without taking precautions. They use double boilers, steam heat, agitators, pumps, etc to keep the grains from burning. So comparing the average home still to a commercial setup is a bit of apples and oranges for most people. Commercial distilleries get away with it because they've designed their systems to run dirty. This is done more for efficiency and saving labor/hours than for taste or other reasons.
In the home setup, we can lauter/sparge and press grains and let this settle that wouldn't be feasible in commercial setups. We can borrow techniques used in beer and wine making that distillers try to avoid to increase production. Just because a commercial distillery does something doesn't make it the "bar" or best way we should do it. It just makes it the way they do it. Economies of scale sometime dictate these types of things.
I would not run mashes with grains or particles in them that haven't cleared on my stills unless it went into a thumper (indirect heat) as I use direct heat and don't have an agitator. Why walk a line of possible scorching and having to clean the still (not fun) and ruining a batch when I can easily clear it enough to make it a safe and easy run? I personally think it taste better cleared as well but that's just me.
Clearing a grain mash is way different than a sugar wash such as BW. Having some yeast trapped in suspension is FAR, FAR different than grains. Short of dumping the BW trub into the boiler the yeast in suspension isn't going to be problem as it's thin (in most stills).
Depending on YOUR STILL and the type of heating, clearing the mash can make the difference between scorching or successful spirits when grains are present during the ferment. It can make the difference of burning out elements besides just scorching.
Commercial distillers don't usually direct heat grains or grain particles in the still without taking precautions. They use double boilers, steam heat, agitators, pumps, etc to keep the grains from burning. So comparing the average home still to a commercial setup is a bit of apples and oranges for most people. Commercial distilleries get away with it because they've designed their systems to run dirty. This is done more for efficiency and saving labor/hours than for taste or other reasons.
In the home setup, we can lauter/sparge and press grains and let this settle that wouldn't be feasible in commercial setups. We can borrow techniques used in beer and wine making that distillers try to avoid to increase production. Just because a commercial distillery does something doesn't make it the "bar" or best way we should do it. It just makes it the way they do it. Economies of scale sometime dictate these types of things.
I would not run mashes with grains or particles in them that haven't cleared on my stills unless it went into a thumper (indirect heat) as I use direct heat and don't have an agitator. Why walk a line of possible scorching and having to clean the still (not fun) and ruining a batch when I can easily clear it enough to make it a safe and easy run? I personally think it taste better cleared as well but that's just me.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
Running on the grain doesn't equate with running uncleared wash and I doubt anyone would recommend doing that in a T500.
There are a couple of newbie mistakes that can cause scorching, but as long as you are aware of them, you can avoid them.
Uncleared beer can scorch if it has unconverted starch or residual sugar in it that can burn, so make sure you prepare and ferment the mash correctly so that it can't happen. You can check any wash by putting some in tinfoil over a flame and boiling off the liquid. Starch or sugar will scorch in the foil. No scorch = no problem.
Particles may scorch if they are not kept in suspension, so you might get caught out if you fill the still the night before, or turn the heat off long enough for them to settle, then start without stirring them up. Also, you would have to do a pretty bad job of siphoning/racking/pouring/whatever to get enough large particles to cause a problem.
There are a couple of newbie mistakes that can cause scorching, but as long as you are aware of them, you can avoid them.
Uncleared beer can scorch if it has unconverted starch or residual sugar in it that can burn, so make sure you prepare and ferment the mash correctly so that it can't happen. You can check any wash by putting some in tinfoil over a flame and boiling off the liquid. Starch or sugar will scorch in the foil. No scorch = no problem.
Particles may scorch if they are not kept in suspension, so you might get caught out if you fill the still the night before, or turn the heat off long enough for them to settle, then start without stirring them up. Also, you would have to do a pretty bad job of siphoning/racking/pouring/whatever to get enough large particles to cause a problem.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
Short of having good agitation, the presence of the grain particles in a completed ferment with no sugars or starches present can scorch depending on the still and method of heating.
When solids are allowed to come in contact with heat for too long a period of time they burn. Anyone who has ever cooked on the stove and didn't stir properly knows this. With an uncleared wash your boiler gets thicker and thicker as the run progresses and the liquid is removed raising the possibility of scorching as the density changes.
There are certainly things that can be done to mitigate scorching but the safest way is just not put yourself in that situation if at all possible and clear your mash if not equipped to hand a dirty mash.
When solids are allowed to come in contact with heat for too long a period of time they burn. Anyone who has ever cooked on the stove and didn't stir properly knows this. With an uncleared wash your boiler gets thicker and thicker as the run progresses and the liquid is removed raising the possibility of scorching as the density changes.
There are certainly things that can be done to mitigate scorching but the safest way is just not put yourself in that situation if at all possible and clear your mash if not equipped to hand a dirty mash.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
I guess you are unfamiliar with the T500 guys having to run bubble enhancers to reduce scorching? T500s have been notorious for having hot spot issues and scorching over the years.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=45158
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=73284
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=45158
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=73284
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
This is great info guys, thank you.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
There is a link to that here. viewtopic.php?t=45158
Note that Lampshade was having problems with sugar washes. You haven't had the same problem so Still Spirits may have fixed that issue with yours.
Note that Lampshade was having problems with sugar washes. You haven't had the same problem so Still Spirits may have fixed that issue with yours.
Re: After our 15th Birdwatchers...
Yeah I seem to have dodged that bullet. So far so flawless after about 15-20 runs. I will keep my fingers crossed!