High Level Overview of PID like Control
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High Level Overview of PID like Control
As asked in another thread here is a high level overview of how/why some people use PID like controllers. I hesitate to even post this as there seems to be many PID haters. So I'll say everyone is welcome to post but let's try and keep it civil please! If you disagree, please state why something doesn't/can't work but keep in mind, this is what many people ALREADY do.
Let me explain the premise briefly without going into tons of details or the specifics of PID functionality and why some people like this type of control. Maybe this will help clear the air with a mile high overview.
1) You have control over raising boiler and vapor temps. You can not make things boil at a higher temp (nor do you want to) but you can monitor the present temp and CUT or LOWER heat to hold a temp or allow more heat so that the boil temp will rise on it's own. Thus you can control the boiling temp as it will never rise higher then the target. If you set a target temp of 173F it will supply electricity to the heating element to produce heat until it reaches that temp in a proportionate way. As it nears the target temp it will lower the heat being applied to hold that temp. It will not go higher than the target temp until the PID or controller changes set points or target temp.
You can not make the boil higher then physics allow it to be based on the alcohol content in the boiler but you can set a target and allow it to rise to that set point and can hold it until a new target is selected.
2) As the temperature being monitored approaches the set point the distillate will run slower and slower and eventually stop which is what we want to happen when temps levels off at a set point.
3) When you set a new set temp that is higher then the current boil temp, the PID or other similar controller will be adding more heat which will cause the still to produce again. The rate of flow is adjustable by ID functions but it's beyond this post.
4A) People using a rheostat type control find fault in #2 and #3 above as the still produces differently then they are used to and they can't hold a steady stream or drip rate which they expect. Thus to them PID control is "broken" or has problems.
4B) People using temperature monitoring and control (aka PID like device) want exactly #2 and #3 and DO NOT need a constant steady stream.
#4 is the source of most arguments or misunderstanding beside "can't control boiler temp" comments.
Why?
The person using the physics of the distillation process to their advantage knows that certain concentrations come out at different temperature ranges and makes the most use of this to their advantage. For example foreshots come off the still first and have the lowest boiling temp. Heads come off next with a bit higher temperature. Then Hearts come off with yet another temperature range, followed by tails which have the highest range of temperatures.
When you "force" a steady stream you are in fact smearing your alcohols (with reflux you can knock much of this back down). Now as an example with a PID you can set alarms and targets. So for example an audible alarm could sound at 170F followed by a target of 173F and an alarm. So when you hear the alarm you know foreshots are coming and can be ready to dump X amount as usual. Since the boiling temp is less than 173F heat is being applied and Heads will flow. As the temp nears 173F the stream or drips will subside until nothing is coming out as you don't allow the boil temp to rise. The maximum amount of heads have now been collected best that can be done without refluxing. Now a new target is set for Hearts and distillate will start to flow again into the new jar you just switched. When the boiler reaches a new target temp of say 204F or whatever you set it to, your Hearts will slow to a drip and then stop. You are finished the concentration of Hearts, can change jars and collect your tails with a new target of 212F.
This works like clockwork but can be fine tuned and adjusted to your style of running or spirit being distilled. For example a brandy might want late heads for flavor so 172F is used vs 173F for whiskey as the stop point of heads/hearts. In this case you want the late heads in your hearts (or keeper jars)! This is what is meant by "fine tuning". With the ability to set alarms at certain temp points you can set an alarm to notify you of transitional ranges. So you can collect in big containers, get to an alarm/transitional point, collect in small jars for later checking and then collect in big jars again until your next transition. Basically the transitions are heads to hearts and of course hearts to tails.
This is a DIFFERENT way of running a pot still, but in many ways is similar or will make some sense to those who reflux. The person who does refluxing will have no issue with stops in distillation to build up concentrations/compacting before starting again. This is a "poor mans" version of that on a pot still to separate as much as possible (within reason since it's a pot still) and stop as much smearing as possible between your transition jars. It of course is not doing any refluxing but the control of boiler temps helps to only allow the main concentration of alcohols out that said temperature will allow as dictated by physics. What it does is give you the cleanest cuts or transitions you can get on a pot still and allows you to make runs exactly the same time and time again assuming what's in the boiler is the same.
This works really well on SPIRIT runs when you strip to specific ABVs.
Let me explain the premise briefly without going into tons of details or the specifics of PID functionality and why some people like this type of control. Maybe this will help clear the air with a mile high overview.
1) You have control over raising boiler and vapor temps. You can not make things boil at a higher temp (nor do you want to) but you can monitor the present temp and CUT or LOWER heat to hold a temp or allow more heat so that the boil temp will rise on it's own. Thus you can control the boiling temp as it will never rise higher then the target. If you set a target temp of 173F it will supply electricity to the heating element to produce heat until it reaches that temp in a proportionate way. As it nears the target temp it will lower the heat being applied to hold that temp. It will not go higher than the target temp until the PID or controller changes set points or target temp.
You can not make the boil higher then physics allow it to be based on the alcohol content in the boiler but you can set a target and allow it to rise to that set point and can hold it until a new target is selected.
2) As the temperature being monitored approaches the set point the distillate will run slower and slower and eventually stop which is what we want to happen when temps levels off at a set point.
3) When you set a new set temp that is higher then the current boil temp, the PID or other similar controller will be adding more heat which will cause the still to produce again. The rate of flow is adjustable by ID functions but it's beyond this post.
4A) People using a rheostat type control find fault in #2 and #3 above as the still produces differently then they are used to and they can't hold a steady stream or drip rate which they expect. Thus to them PID control is "broken" or has problems.
4B) People using temperature monitoring and control (aka PID like device) want exactly #2 and #3 and DO NOT need a constant steady stream.
#4 is the source of most arguments or misunderstanding beside "can't control boiler temp" comments.
Why?
The person using the physics of the distillation process to their advantage knows that certain concentrations come out at different temperature ranges and makes the most use of this to their advantage. For example foreshots come off the still first and have the lowest boiling temp. Heads come off next with a bit higher temperature. Then Hearts come off with yet another temperature range, followed by tails which have the highest range of temperatures.
When you "force" a steady stream you are in fact smearing your alcohols (with reflux you can knock much of this back down). Now as an example with a PID you can set alarms and targets. So for example an audible alarm could sound at 170F followed by a target of 173F and an alarm. So when you hear the alarm you know foreshots are coming and can be ready to dump X amount as usual. Since the boiling temp is less than 173F heat is being applied and Heads will flow. As the temp nears 173F the stream or drips will subside until nothing is coming out as you don't allow the boil temp to rise. The maximum amount of heads have now been collected best that can be done without refluxing. Now a new target is set for Hearts and distillate will start to flow again into the new jar you just switched. When the boiler reaches a new target temp of say 204F or whatever you set it to, your Hearts will slow to a drip and then stop. You are finished the concentration of Hearts, can change jars and collect your tails with a new target of 212F.
This works like clockwork but can be fine tuned and adjusted to your style of running or spirit being distilled. For example a brandy might want late heads for flavor so 172F is used vs 173F for whiskey as the stop point of heads/hearts. In this case you want the late heads in your hearts (or keeper jars)! This is what is meant by "fine tuning". With the ability to set alarms at certain temp points you can set an alarm to notify you of transitional ranges. So you can collect in big containers, get to an alarm/transitional point, collect in small jars for later checking and then collect in big jars again until your next transition. Basically the transitions are heads to hearts and of course hearts to tails.
This is a DIFFERENT way of running a pot still, but in many ways is similar or will make some sense to those who reflux. The person who does refluxing will have no issue with stops in distillation to build up concentrations/compacting before starting again. This is a "poor mans" version of that on a pot still to separate as much as possible (within reason since it's a pot still) and stop as much smearing as possible between your transition jars. It of course is not doing any refluxing but the control of boiler temps helps to only allow the main concentration of alcohols out that said temperature will allow as dictated by physics. What it does is give you the cleanest cuts or transitions you can get on a pot still and allows you to make runs exactly the same time and time again assuming what's in the boiler is the same.
This works really well on SPIRIT runs when you strip to specific ABVs.
Last edited by cayars on Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
I'll be the first to admit that I did not give PIDs a fair shake. I built a controller using one, used it for a while, never got it to work and went with a rheostat and SSVR. The issues I was having were caused by me buying an SSR at the wrong amperage, then me connecting the replacement the wrong way. I suspect a fair amount of the issues I was having were also caused by improper tuning, partly because the instructions were in terrible english.
I plan on trying it again, likely with an SSVR instead, it's not done, it's just sidelined for me right now.
I plan on trying it again, likely with an SSVR instead, it's not done, it's just sidelined for me right now.
If I didn't learn the hard way, I wouldn't learn at all!
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Windswept glad you didn’t give up. The correct parts are very important. If you need help wiring a PID, SSVR etc.,120 volt, 240 volt dual controller etc. just watch one of George’s videos on youtube under Barley and Hops. He posts the wiring on a board and goes through each piece of the puzzle telling you in detail what parts are need to accomplish the build. He also explains the purpose of each part. It couldn’t be much simpler. You can build one in 1/2 hour if you have all the parts ready and have some diy skills. I’m sure there are plenty of members here that could also help with the wiring and parts needed to build either device. Good luck with your build!
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- Master of Distillation
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Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Well done Cayars..
My controllers over the years, (built first one over 8 ago) have evolved to the point that I have 4 temp probes providing reading that almost, and I state, "almost", make my still operating automatic..
Yes.. one only needs one control to manage the energy input to the element, but the temp probe, position in the right location, provide valuable information during the process.. and where it is the most valuable is in repleting runs, and getting the same finished product..
A side note to using temp probe is that they require input from making notes of their info provided.. also energy input, water flow rate, and take off rate effect are very visible with temp probes..
Will research the PID system, as the last time I did should research was some 5 yrs back, and it's mostly forgotten, other than the name.. lol (age don't help also)
Again, thanks for posting many of your insight from your experience, many of which I have also experience..
Mars
My controllers over the years, (built first one over 8 ago) have evolved to the point that I have 4 temp probes providing reading that almost, and I state, "almost", make my still operating automatic..
Yes.. one only needs one control to manage the energy input to the element, but the temp probe, position in the right location, provide valuable information during the process.. and where it is the most valuable is in repleting runs, and getting the same finished product..
A side note to using temp probe is that they require input from making notes of their info provided.. also energy input, water flow rate, and take off rate effect are very visible with temp probes..
Will research the PID system, as the last time I did should research was some 5 yrs back, and it's mostly forgotten, other than the name.. lol (age don't help also)
Again, thanks for posting many of your insight from your experience, many of which I have also experience..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
I have to say though, at least with stripping runs I have it to the point that it's pretty automatic. I know that I can run my still at 80% power until the column heats up, then at 35% for the rest of the run and it just hums away happily. Having the rheostat really helps me try different things, and I'm learning a lot about how it likes to work.
I do want to get a set-up like yours Mars, with a bunch of different data points. I'm a bit of a data junkie, so the more the better!
I do want to get a set-up like yours Mars, with a bunch of different data points. I'm a bit of a data junkie, so the more the better!
If I didn't learn the hard way, I wouldn't learn at all!
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Cayars could you provided a starting point for me and others in using a PID on a CCVM in reflux? The column is about 40” tall prior to the tee takeoff to product condenser. What would be a good place to attach and external temperature probe to control boiler temperature? Not sure if that’s the right question to ask but a start! Start at keg or place near vapor exit? My PID controller has two other Inkbird temperature monitors. So I can measure the temperature at three different locations. The PID only controls a single 5500 watt heating element. A step by step explanation as to where to start would be greatly appreciated. Please keep it as simple as possible to start and I can ask questions when necessary. I know how detailed you can In explaining things and I don’t want to get lost in the explanation part. Thanks
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Discussing PID control of pot stills and reflux stills in the same thread is doomed to turn into a confusing mess.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Ok start a second post to keep separate? Would that be a lot of overlapping information I don’t know?
- Yummyrum
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Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
SSR__VR should never be connected to a PID controller . They are only ever to be connected to a Potentiometer .Windswept wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:11 am I'll be the first to admit that I did not give PIDs a fair shake. I built a controller using one, used it for a while, never got it to work and went with a rheostat and SSVR. The issues I was having were caused by me buying an SSR at the wrong amperage, then me connecting the replacement the wrong way. I suspect a fair amount of the issues I was having were also caused by improper tuning, partly because the instructions were in terrible english.
I plan on trying it again, likely with an SSVR instead, it's not done, it's just sidelined for me right now.
SSR__DA should be used on a PID . Or other controller such as Auduino etc .
They are not interchangeable . The VR has “live “ control terminals whereas the DA has electrically Isolated control terminals .
The VR type is a self contained phase controller ...: basically a light dimer with a huge triac .
A DA type is a true isolated relay that is either 100% on or off .
Connecting a VR type of SSR to an Auduino for example , apart from likely destroying it , will allow the Auduino curcuit to be at Mains voltage . ..... Bloody stupid and dangerous .... apart from the fact that it won’t even work .
Anyway ..... Safety rant aside .... as you were
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
How does element size fit in with PID control?
A lot of distillers want short heat up times, so use elements with large Wattages compared to the Watts required not to puke.
A lot of distillers want short heat up times, so use elements with large Wattages compared to the Watts required not to puke.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Couldn't agree more Mars.StillerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:17 am A side note to using temp probe is that they require input from making notes of their info provided.. also energy input, water flow rate, and take off rate effect are very visible with temp probes..
A PID ran on a pot still as outlined in the OP post works well because you only need to monitor one temp point. You can do similar with a reflux still but since only one part is "automated" you can't reproduce runs which is the main point of a PID IMHO.Slow42 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:26 pm Cayars could you provided a starting point for me and others in using a PID on a CCVM in reflux? The column is about 40” tall prior to the tee takeoff to product condenser. What would be a good place to attach and external temperature probe to control boiler temperature? Not sure if that’s the right question to ask but a start! Start at keg or place near vapor exit? My PID controller has two other Inkbird temperature monitors. So I can measure the temperature at three different locations. The PID only controls a single 5500 watt heating element. A step by step explanation as to where to start would be greatly appreciated. Please keep it as simple as possible to start and I can ask questions when necessary. I know how detailed you can In explaining things and I don’t want to get lost in the explanation part. Thanks
If you don't mind being a bit patient I'll do you one better. This spring I'm going to start working on a fully automated system. I believe as it stands now it will have 3 probes in the column, one in the boiler and one for cooling water. One or two optional pressure sensors and optional rate flow. Automatic valves for directing distillate flow (ie through carbon or not for hearts). Few more things I'd like to add but haven't figured out how I want to do it yet. Most of the control can be handled with 3 probes in the column.
HOWEVER CCVM wouldn't be my choice of still to automate since you have no easy way to raise/lower the coil without using servos or stepper motors or some other mechanical device/rig. A boka or CM type still would be an easier automation likely with better results and could be ran for reflux or pot stilling by turning off the cooling which you can't do with the CCVM (without capping the column). This would allow compacting heads, then doing hearts with little to no reflux or being able to dial-in a heart take off at 140 proof for example.
It most certainly won't be using PIDs but will be full computer controlled or using something like a Pi or Arduino (dumb computers if you will) which are cheap and have much more functionality than a PID when programmed correctly for the job. This would allow full logging of runs for graphing and review including things like watts or percent of power, etc.
Last edited by cayars on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
It matters of course. As an example just for the sake of friendly conversation if you had a 5500 watt element so you can heat up quickly but then used it at lets say 1000 watts during normal operation it would be getting turned on and off quite frequently when "at temp" to keep you near/at your target point.
If you had a 1200 watt element it would of course take longer to heat up but once at running temp would stay on much more of the time under PID control.
That bothers some people and not other people. In reality with the ID functionality programmed correctly it shouldn't matter as you can adjust the amount of energy being applied per second or 1/10 of second to roughly match what you would do with a dial.
For people that this bothers, they can use two different elements, one PID controlled and one just big enough to supply watts needed during normal runs like maybe a 1500 watt element and then have another element with a simple on/off switch that is used only during heat up.
Another method that can work for other people (depending what you currently have) is unplug your current box and plug that into the PID controller. Now you can throttle the PID. So 100% for heatup and maybe 35% of PID power when on. That would allow the pid to be in the on state far more often and not switching on/off nearly as much.
If the objective is to stop burning/scorching then that's just a matter of using more elements of lower wattage to stop heat spots as usual.
It all depends on what you are trying to achieve and why you are trying to achieve it. Hope this makes sense.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Cayars there you go again with to much detail many people want to use a PID to control their still. There’s pretty much one one way to do that a device that turns the heating element on to get to a desired temperature/result then off when it reaches the target temperature/result. PID and other devices do just that in a different way. It’s basically on/off one is mechanical and one digital. So with no explanations about theory of either device. Where would you put a thermometer to register the necessary heat/result required for deciding what temperature/result you want at any given time. Pot or reflux. Paint by the numbers please. Remember not many have the skill set you have and are only interested in getting results. Hope that makes things a bit clearer.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Element size doesn't make a difference it all works on the same principle. On/off. If you have a still you want to heat up quicker buy a bigger element. Use whatever element you have for the size of the still you have. I don’t understand the confusion about how to heat up a liquid. Turn a switch to heat up turn it off when it gets to where you want it to. To fast you scorch to slow you fall asleep. What’s the problem here with heating up stuff? It’s simple!
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
What is your running advice for a Newbie doing his first stripping run with a PID?
- Yummyrum
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Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Well there in lies the problem .
Somewhere in-between is a happy medium . A simple power controller will sort that out smart .
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Yummyrum you are correct for the average person a simple power controller is the answer. You really can’t beat it for simplicity and affordability. On the other hand you can get a PID that can adjust raise/lower temperatures at different time intervals to get to a desired temperature. With experience as with a simple power controller you will never scorch anything or fall . The cost factor is what I would consider high, about $80.00 for the PID. The up side once you get it set up, experience, it’s as close as you can get to automation.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
If it's a newbie to distillation in general, I'd advise against it's (PID) use in general unless they were the analytical type, have a good understanding of distillation and have already used AND programmed PIDs on other projects OR willing to learn how to use them correctly. I'd consider it an intermediate/advanced tool in general.
If they are experienced in general, but just a NEWB to PIDs then:
Not to use it as a PID as in the op post. Either use a different controller, set a program where you have the set point set high like 210F (with controlled ramping) or switch it to manual mode. Many options.
But basically PID functionality is for reducing smearing and collecting things in fractions (best you can do on a pot) by temp and best used only for SPIRIT runs. For a STRIP run you don't care about smearing or collecting heads, hearts, tails and just want to consolidate your alcohol for the eventual spirit run without puking or foaming over. STRIP runs generally speaking are done as fast as you can run them based on the mash and there is no need for PID like control.
Make sense?
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
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Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Just to expand on temp probes and their locations and why I use them at those location.. and I am assuming here that PID would be doing something similar in providing temp information.. and as to element size or wattage it really has no impact on temperate other than time of heat up, cause once at temp, it become a function of power management..StillerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:17 am Yes.. one only needs one control to manage the energy input to the element, but the temp probe, position in the right location, provide valuable information during the process.. and where it is the most valuable is in repleting runs, and getting the same finished product..
In pot mode, I use one temp probe to give the vapor temperate that is located just off the base of the column, and one at my water outlet on the condenser.. the vapor temp at the base location, indicate a few things, but mainly the level of alcohol in the boiler, at the start, mid way, and at the end of the run.. in stripping mode, the end of the run temp will also tell me at what level the collected low wine abv is at, and from that I can stop the run at the 50% mark for neutral or at 35% for flavors..
In reflux mode, I use one temp probe located just of the base of the column, one at the base of column about 2" up, one at the top of the column just about 2" above the packing, and one at the water outlet on the condenser, and with the flute I have one on each side of the reflux condenser.. the temp probe at the base of the column and the one at the top, indicate the amount of reflux taking place, which can be managed by the take off rate and or the amount of water flow by learning to balance the two..
What temp probe indicate to me during a run is what is all happening with the vapor activity/behavior of the alcohol.. and over time of note taking, one learn how to manage the power and water flow to maximize the operation of the still, and make it do what you want it do..
Is it necessary.. not really.. can I run the still without it, I sure can.. but it sure makes running a still much more enjoyable, knowing at a glace that everything is in order at every step of the way.. it may not be for everyone, but for me, after many years, it sure does..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
With a properly programmed PID using the ID functionality you WILL ALREADY be at a happy medium. That is the point of using a PID.
Like any other tool, improper setup or use will give bad results. Really no different then running your present still with the dial turned up to high or to low which will result in what Slow42 mentioned of possibly burning a dirty mash or taking forever to heat up. Operator error can happen either way.
With a PID setup based on past experience and knowledge both of these are far less likely to happen.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Having a still pause production, then not continue until I manually raise the setpoint of a controller doesn't sound much like automation to me. All of my stills go through all of the temperatures I desire them to without me having to adjust set points multiple times during the run.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Mars, what type of reflux still do you normally run?
If it has a deflag like in a CM, do you have a probe under it?
Have you noticed/figured out the differences in temp at the top, below deflag and bottom of column during your runs? Put another way, have you figured out the take off rate you can do to keep purity while watching those temp probes? If not study that.
If it has a deflag like in a CM, do you have a probe under it?
Have you noticed/figured out the differences in temp at the top, below deflag and bottom of column during your runs? Put another way, have you figured out the take off rate you can do to keep purity while watching those temp probes? If not study that.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Correct, you fall into 4A as mentioned in the op post. You push through the natural separation you could have by temp but forfeit it by over driving your heat and smearing the output trying to keep a steady stream or drip rate. To understand the proper use of a PID you need to re-think how to run the still based on separations as described in 4B.NZChris wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:03 pmHaving a still pause production, then not continue until I manually raise the setpoint of a controller doesn't sound much like automation to me. All of my stills go through all of the temperatures I desire them to without me having to adjust set points multiple times during the run.
For those that do 4B style runs having the still automatically stop when heads and hearts is done is great as we have far less smearing of product.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
NZChris I guess I didn’t explained properly. There are No interruptions. You set the time and temperature intervals you want and done automatic! Go to bed and the process continues. I’ve been using a PID for over 15 years. Never in distilling. There are as simple as simple can be. I just want to know where to put the temperature probe on a still to control the heating element. I could figure it out but I though someone here must have done this before and could explain.
Edit: feb 15th “Go to bed and the process continues” This statement was a figure of speech!! It was never intended to suggest that you leave a still unattended. I assumed incorrectly that everyone would understand this statement. My mistake!
Edit: feb 15th “Go to bed and the process continues” This statement was a figure of speech!! It was never intended to suggest that you leave a still unattended. I assumed incorrectly that everyone would understand this statement. My mistake!
Last edited by Slow42 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
I think he's referring to what I described as the slowing to stopping of distillate when your still hits the target temps.
For example using the example as in the op post the still would stop producing at 173F when heads are collected.
This would be an interruption the way NZChris might look at it. The still will basically sit idle (in production) until the target temp point is raised for the next "fraction" to be taken.
This is NOT unlike the way people run reflux stills with interruptions between fractions of heads/hearts and hearts/tails as they work on compressing the the column for the next take off. <-- Interruption wise
I could run a 5 gallon pot still on 1500 watts and cruise through all the fractions quite easily with no user input and get a very smeared product WITH a nice steady stream. This is what I and other PID users DO NOT WANT. We INTENTIONALLY WANT the interruption because it's a division of our fractions.
For example using the example as in the op post the still would stop producing at 173F when heads are collected.
This would be an interruption the way NZChris might look at it. The still will basically sit idle (in production) until the target temp point is raised for the next "fraction" to be taken.
This is NOT unlike the way people run reflux stills with interruptions between fractions of heads/hearts and hearts/tails as they work on compressing the the column for the next take off. <-- Interruption wise
I could run a 5 gallon pot still on 1500 watts and cruise through all the fractions quite easily with no user input and get a very smeared product WITH a nice steady stream. This is what I and other PID users DO NOT WANT. We INTENTIONALLY WANT the interruption because it's a division of our fractions.
Last edited by cayars on Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
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Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
The set up I mainly use now a days, for almost all my distillation as this unit is very versatile, is the concentric in both 2" and 3".. and it doesn't matter which one I use, the probe reading give me the same results.. the only different is the take off rate or time of the run between the two size, to which size I use depends on the volume I want to process..
The top of the column probe is located just above the packing and just below the vapor throat body with a shield covering from the refluxing liquid.. and the bottom is 1.5" off the base..
And yes I have study the different in base and top probe temps, and what they do indicate.. as I stated in my prior post, it tell me the amount of refluxing taking place, which in turn provides info on the purity of alcohol available for extraction..
Example.. if I what some flavor but not full flavor, I can maintain the take off rate at a certain rate base on those temp probe readings.. and the extraction abv I'm looking for is right on.. it also tells me went to start compressing some of the early tails..
Overall, it save ton of time without having to do cuts.. yes one has to do cut when doing something new for the first few times, but once a few batches have been processed, it's rock and roll.. and that only apply providing one does his fermentation and batches exactly the same each time.. this is very important, which why I have my fermenting process down to a precise method..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Nice input and glad to hear your results are similar to mine as well.
Off topic but I've got to read more about concentric stills and learn the pros/cons for that style of still. I know there are a few threads about them here on the forums and have rough skimmed them but never read them in depth.
Off topic but I've got to read more about concentric stills and learn the pros/cons for that style of still. I know there are a few threads about them here on the forums and have rough skimmed them but never read them in depth.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
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- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 3387
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
- Location: Ontario
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
This style of still head is very versatile in many ways.. just shorten the column and you have a pot head.. lengthen the column with packing and you have a reflux unit.. change the packing used and length, and make whatever product result you want..
On the plus side, very easy to maintain and take very little space to store them or (hide them if needed)..
To save you time..
This the original thread from where this style started from.. when HD upgraded last years the pictures were lost..
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8046
Rad took it to the next level..
viewtopic.php?t=36382
Other thread on the style..
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=31411&hilit=concentric+still
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=42206&p=7261234&hi ... c#p7261234
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
- shadylane
- Master of Distillation
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- Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
My CM column will do that on it's own.
It will run slower and slower and eventually stop
Re: High Level Overview of PID like Control
Yes on a reflux still of course. But the op post was doing the same thing for a pot still based on temperature like you are doing with cooling or reflux.
Of course you can't compact on a pot still like a reflux still, but you can use temperature to help with separation points.
That's why I mentioned it's sort of like a "poor mans reflux still" without compacting which might make sense to you.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.