High Level Overview of PID like Control

[NZChris]

instead of using a cheap PID that trashes your elements with constant on/off cycles.

Check with your manufacture and I bet they will tell you this doesn't matter much. They are designed to work this way. This is the way the elements work on a stove and in a water heater. They are more likely to fail when left on for long periods of time without cycling and of course when dry fired or when fluid around the element doesn't move and it overheats and burns out. Allowing your element to run dirty is the fastest way to kill it next to dry firing. Keep the element clean and it should last a long time.

Metal fatigue will eventually kill any element that gets switched on and off.

Hot water elements are designed to be controlled with a thermostat. When you control them with a PID, you put them through years worth of on/off cycles in a few hours. The reason the Centennial light bulb is still going is because it has hardly ever been turned off and on.

I recently killed a hot plate element that I'd been using in my smoker for several years. I thought I'd be clever and control the temperature to 150F with a PID for a 24 hour project. It died several hours before the time was up.

[Slow42]

I was going to stay out of this but NZChris what your stating is total nonsense! You have no clue what your talking about!!! PIDs don’t burn out your elements especially a smoker element. Now your in an area I can say I know very well. I been using a PID to control my smokers for over 15 years now. That’s what there made for controlling heating devices. Will they fail over time of course everything does. You buy crap PIDS you get crap results. I have no idea why you and a few others are trying to destroy the idea of using PIDS for distilling is beyond me. They will work for everything. Stop spreading misinformation you apparently know nothing about.

[NZChris]

What element are you using Slow? I want one.

[Slow42]

NZChris your an intelligent man and appear to be very adept in the ark of distilling. This subject, PIDS, was about helping people understand their uses and the post as just turned into a pissing contest between members. If you want to educate yourself about the use of PIDS do some research they are used in almost every aspect of modern industry. Just let the post run it’s course and if you have any intelligent information to provide please do so.

[NZChris]

It's discussion forum and we are discussing PIDs. No need to get het up about it.

From what I understand, Carlo is saying that PIDs are not suitable for stripping runs, so the controllers most of us are already using are needed for that. Also, for PID control, that the elements have to be sized to suit, or the power to the elements controlled by the same controllers most of us are already using.

How am I doing so far?

[Slow42]

NZChris I don’t want to get into an argument about the use of a PID. I already know how to use one and done so for many applications. NOT DISTILLING. A PID can be of course be used in a stripping run why the hell not it’s the same as and other device used out there, SSVR, PWM, propane etc. it’s a simple on/off switch. You can adjust one to ramp up the temperature just has you would using a SSVR, PWM or propane. I use a SSVR all the time. The element sizing only makes a difference in choosing the proper SSR for the PID, A PID is usually both 120 and 240 volt capable. The SSR must be sized for the correct amperage of the element. They are usually 25 or 40 amp. So whatever element you have just pick the proper SSR the PID will be the same for both. You can build a PID controller and change nothing on the heating element that you have. So if you feel like using the PID one day and your SSR another day you can do so. Not complicated.

“It's discussion forum and we are discussing PIDs. No need to get het up about it.”
What’s going on here is not a discussion it’s uninformed people arguing, ok discussing, things they no nothing about so they make up stuff and spread false information. If you can’t contribute intelligently I say again don’t say anything. The problem with you and others are that you are well respected and novices gravitate to such experience. You and others do them an injustice with some of your statements. IMO

[StillerBoy]

Emotions guys.. are getting the better of you..

We all like to defense our point of view.. that's fine in an adversarial position.. but.. this forum is not about that..

It's about advancing the art of distillation in an enjoyable manner.. whether one chooses to do so or not, is a personal choice..

Mars

[Yummyrum]

...maybe those are the next steps, buck up with some part numbers, schematics, build threads photos and experiments, and cut the theory BS. lets see some practical application and the results

here here .....three pages in and....

Cayers , you say you've been using one for years....you seem very capable of handling a keyboard so surely it wouldn't be too hard for you to snap of and upload a few photo's of your setup ...infact you have never posted a pic of any of your stuff .
Some schematics of your working setup ...not just a generic cut and pasted from the net . Surely you can at least draw it on paper and take a photo .

StillerBoy , you got any ?

Bout time we saw something real instead of talk .

I'm keen on seeing something real . All I'm hearing is that you can do this and that with ID . Not even any info about what ID is .
Best thing so far this thread about PID's is what Charcoal posted

[NZChris]

A PID can be of course be used in a stripping run why the hell not it’s the same as and other device used out there, SSVR, PWM, propane etc.

I was referring to Carlo's post here: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=77252#p7592221 I thought you were taking his side.

[Saltbush Bill]

Some schematics of your working setup

Surely you can at least draw it on paper and take a photo .

This was the set up just over 5 months ago when Carlo made his introductory post, it seemed to be a pot with a thumper that he said maybe didn't work properly.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=75538&p=7572167#p7572167
The is also a link to what is claimed to be a similar still , unfortunately the link doesn't seem to work......or doesn't for me anyway.

[cayars]

Emotions guys.. are getting the better of you..

I gave me self a few hours time out just because I wanted to watch this. There is a lot of "bating" and semi-trolling going on here. Things are being taken out of context of what's actually been said a lot in just a couple of pages.

You and I are not really that far out in overall style if you can believe that. You do it every run to make "on the fly cuts" vs me and Mars who use past experience as well (at times) on the fly taste/smell to make adjustments.

You seem to like making assumptions about what other people do, but you're not very good at it. The only cuts 'on the fly' that happen in my shed are for base spirits for gin and the likes. For repeat flavored products, I use my past records to tell me when I should be running into small jars so that I can make the final choice of cut. Because I'm a home distiller and not pumping out large volumes of the same pap day after day, I often blend myself more than one style of cut out of one spirit run.

Read my lips.... "more than one style of cut out of one spirit run". I don't believe that there is a magic temperature that makes the finest possible outcome for a flavored spirit.

You are all over the board with different ways you run your still but here are just a few comments in this thread alone.

On the other hand you can get a PID that can adjust raise/lower temperatures at different time intervals to get to a desired temperature.

Having a still pause production, then not continue until I manually raise the setpoint of a controller doesn't sound much like automation to me. All of my stills go through all of the temperatures I desire them to without me having to adjust set points multiple times during the run.

Correct, you fall into 4A as mentioned in the op post. You push through the natural separation you could have by temp but forfeit it by over driving your heat and smearing the output trying to keep a steady stream or drip rate.

Your assumption is incorrect. For a stripping run, I run slow until the foreshot has been removed, then turn the Watts up. For a spirit run, I run slow until my nose tells me the heads are gone then turn the Watts up. Consequently, my early distillate is slow with less smearing right from the start, not just slowing as the temperature reaches a setpoint. Plus, I can run any type of product, including those that I've had no prior experience with, without having to find a 'correct' temperature to input into a PID.

what cayars is moving forward is the idea that with temp probes, and they don't have to be PID as I just use temp meter, is that when you are doing the same product over and over, it makes distillation very straight forward.. dial it in and rock and roll.. similar to the big guys..

I've been doing that for years, but only with repeat products. I have one of the more automated pot stills around here to do it with, but I haven't taught it how to swap receivers yet

All of these examples are from this thread and aren't the method trying to be talked about here. This is more the traditional style most use and falls into the 4A style per the op post. The method as being talked about here isn't about automation of running a still with no involvement. It's about a method of getting clean cuts based on physics of when fores, heads & hearts come out of the still by HOLDING SPECIFIC TEMPS to concentrate what will come out of the still at that temperature for a given run. The key to doing this is to set a target or manually control the temp to hold it at a specific temp and allow all the alcohol to come out that will. Fast drips turn to slow drips then completely stop as all the alcohol that will come out at that temp does.

This process works for repeat or brand new runs of grains, fruits or washes. The physics of distilling do not change but only what you might want to cut depending on the spirit being made. This can made automated via computer or similar but really isn't the topic I'm trying to advocate here.

What I'm trying to advocate here is hold temps at certain points to allow all fores to come out that possible can on a pot without refluxing. Same with Heads and Hearts followed by everything left (tails). It doesn't matter if you use a PID with electricity, or use gas and turn a knob to adjust the heat. If you TARGET temps and regulate the heat to hold specific temps you are doing "PID like control" regardless of technology being used which I don't care about for this thread. An actual PID is of course one way to do this.

This really is about temperature control and not the actual mechanism of control used to do it but "temperature control" in a thread title around here is worse than PID in the title. LOL

[cayars]

Some schematics of your working setup

Surely you can at least draw it on paper and take a photo .

This was the set up just over 5 months ago when Carlo made his introductory post, it seemed to be a pot with a thumper that he said maybe didn't work properly.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=75538&p=7572167#p7572167
The is also a link to what is claimed to be a similar still , unfortunately the link doesn't seem to work......or doesn't for me anyway.

You love to throw that out every chance you get Saltbush Bill and it's a classic troll move. Does it make you feel good to try and tear someone down as that seems to be the intention? Is a person's time on a forum an indication of overall knowledge or the words, posts and knowledge more important?

How about quoting other threads where that is explained when asked about it? That's a test rig for grains in the house as I couldn't run the gas reflux stills in the house. I even said in my very first post it was a test rig. It's true however I just recently got into grains which is what I originally came here for as neutrals get boring after a while and I like different types of whiskeys, but found it to be rather easy right from the start once I did it. Basically beer brewing with a couple of things done differently. Cuts on these spirits was rather easy as well and quickly learned it's no different then cuts for neutrals (more latitude actually). You won't find where I've said I make poor spirit which you've alluded to a couple times recently, only spirits that I think are bland. I still think sugar washes with corn and stuff mixed in are bland. I of course have made bad spirits trying something I just didn't like, but who hasn't?

What you of course never seem to acknowledge is that I've been making wine and beer for decades and of course never mention a tiny fact of having designed and worked on refinery control systems. This is the programming, logging and running of global refinery equipment. These are basically large distillation towers that produce methanol and ethanol among many other fuels. You don't build these refinery control systems without knowledge of how they work or what is needed to be done to make these specific products. You tweak them heavily and tune them based on GC-MS reports. You don't taste products when running these system but run them by the numbers based on many sensors including, you guessed it TEMP. Drinking alcohol is hardly different than fuel ethanol in this regard, but we cut for taste and of course try and use better ingredients that favor taste over ABV potential or bio-fuels use. The distillation process is the same and the physics of how it works is the same.

So I naturally tend to run my stills the same way I actually did large industrial control systems. It's some of this knowledge I'm trying to pass on.

[cayars]

A PID can be of course be used in a stripping run why the hell not it’s the same as and other device used out there, SSVR, PWM, propane etc.

I was referring to Carlo's post here: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=77252#p7592221 I thought you were taking his side.

As I said in that link you can use the PID for strip runs but I'd use it in manual mode or crank up the temp. For strip runs you basically run them fast and aren't concerned with separations as that's what the spirit run is for.

[StillerBoy]

ome schematics of your working setup ...not just a generic cut and pasted from the net . Surely you can at least draw it on paper and take a photo .
StillerBoy , you got any ?

Yummyrum.. What is it that you would like to see.. that I use temp probes during distillation..

Well here a picture of my controller with the temp meter used during a run..

Mars

[Yummyrum]

ome schematics of your working setup ...not just a generic cut and pasted from the net . Surely you can at least draw it on paper and take a photo .
StillerBoy , you got any ?

Yummyrum.. What is it that you would like to see.. that I use temp probes during distillation..

Well here a picture of my controller with the temp meter used during a run..

Mars

DSC000561.jpg

Yes Sir ...thankyou .
I know its only a picture but it helps others to validate what you got to say on the matter .
It also gives folk a visual idea of what they might need to do or get in order to follow your method .
It also gives them a person who they can ask practical questions in regards to building such equipment .

[HDNB]

that's what i'm talkin' about...hows all them knobs and dials work? what does what?

[RC Al]

So are the temps displayed there (from top to bottom); top of column (above RC?), bottom of column, water outlet temp (rc or pc??) and boiler temps?

[StillerBoy]

that's what i'm talkin' about...hows all them knobs and dials work? what does what?

Just for you HDNB.. the picture of the temperatures was taken during a flute run some time back..

The top two meters (siting on top of the controller) are the temp on each side the reflux condenser (deflag)..

The one with the temp at 75*F is the water outlet temp.. and the below it the temp of the vapor just at the base of the column..

The other meter (the one in white with the four windows) is the voltage and amp meter with also shows the total amount of power used just the run.. in the picture is shows I running on 240v, using just bit more than 11 amps or 1600 watts, and had used up to that point 4.3 kWH..

The two knobs or dials, as you call them, are two potentiometer.. the bottom one is a 470K and the one above it is a 47K and it is use to fine tune the amp being used..

And the small knob just next to the red rocker switch is for the cooling fan for the SSR (Solid State Relay)..

Mars

Edited: It has been pointed out that was an error on how I stated the potentiometer size and have corrected it..
Also that the relation between the wattage reading and the amp reading did not reflect the right numbers.. and that is correct.. and I have explained why that is in a post further down..

[Yummyrum]

the bottom one is a 470 ohm and the one above it is a 47 ohm and it is use to fine tune the amp being used..

Guessing thats a typo Mars 470k ohms and 47k ohms

[HDNB]

since you posted it just for me, i better be the one to tell you your watt calculator is broken.

(not being a dick, i just kinda noticed that)

presumably the bottom read out is the top of the deflag, the top one is the bottom?

[cayars]

I'm a bit confused as well as 240.1 volts * 11.36 amps = 2727.5 watts.

Are you measuring this at different points in the circuit?
By any chance have you ever thrown a device like a kill-a-watt in front of your box to see the true electrical usage, not just calculated? IE what you're being charge for in usage by your power company?

Not saying this applies to Mars but if you have a heat sink to divert energy/dissipate heat, you are using more energy than what is being applied to your still and you are paying for it. This is a topic that likely warrants it's own thread however.

[Saltbush Bill]

Cayers dont pull that troll shit on me , enough people on enough forums know me well enough to know that, that's not what I'm about, I have only ever had the best interests of this hobby at heart.
Ive helped hundreds of newbies understand things in my time on the different forums whether that be as a Mod or just a normal member as I am here.
You on the other hand just seem to confuse the hell out of new and old alike. Maybe it would do you good to get back to basics, forget your fuel industry learnings and learn how to make excellent booze using traditional methods using your god given senses. We are not here to make industry quality booze .....we are here in most cases to do better and to make very well crafted artisan booze......not run the same shit, run after run after run as you seem intent on getting people to do.

How about quoting other threads where that is explained when asked about it?

Maybe you can point me toward those threads , cause I sure as shit haven't seen them.
In my time on the different distilling forums Ive read a lot of welcome threads probably several thousand or more.......what ever angle I look at yours from it doesn't stack up or it completely contradicts posts that you make in the future.
[/quote]

It's not this one but similar: https://www.amazon.com/Vanell-Moonshine ... den&sr=1-7

A link to a still that doesn'twork

The "thumper" honestly seems more like a joke then doing much overall.

I'll be going bigger in time but for now it's fine while I'm "playing" and continue to learn and produce better product. I'm considering a "test rig". I realize bigger can make it easier for cuts and other things and temps change much more slowly.

If this in its self doesn't indicate that you don't have a better still I don't know what does.

I'm still learning to do cuts after airing the bottles but getting the hang of it.

If that's not what you meant why the hell say it.......I and other members are going to take that at face value?
If you cant get the cuts right on something as simple as a sugar wash ...how the hell are you going to get the cuts right on any other spirit?...some of of which you claim to have been making for years.

Distilled sugar washes no matter how many times through the still, really don't taste good to me at all. I've even resorted to drip through carbon filtering. Still tastes like crap.

I'm surprised that a man of you considerable distilling talent cant make a simple sugar wash taste any good, even if you run it through carbon. that in its self shows bad fermentation methods/ a dodgy still / and or bad choices when it comes to cuts.
You then start trying to tell others who are experienced distillers how they should be doing things .......give me a break.
Not a singe thing in that post indicates experience to me......quite the opposite..it has newbie written all over it.
You may have spent time in the fuel industry but that does not make you by default a great Booze distiller.
I'm done with your BS and this thread.

[charcoal]

I have managed to run my reflux still on 78 degrees for over 30 mins now using a PID.

Someone please let me know where to upload a 2 min and a 30 min video anonymously? Thanks!

[Corsaire]

Cayars, this is why you're drawing so much flack. New distillers are looking for the easy sure fire way to get started and want a step by step process. In their minds this is what you offer them.

Cayars there you go again with to much detail many people want to use a PID to control their still.
...
Snip
...
Paint by the numbers please. Remember not many have the skill set you have and are only interested in getting results. Hope that makes things a bit clearer.

Slow42, Cayars admitted that this isn't the best for a novice. I'm not disrespecting you or your experience with pids.

The numbers Cayars described are for his still, at his altitudes, with his controlled ferments. They won't necesserily apply to your situation. You need to figure out those details on your own.
Run as we advise all newbs, based on power input and training your senses. You can get back to pids when you've got your process sorted and you know what you look for in a spirit.

On another note, I don't think fuel alcohol plants knowledge translates directly to our builds. Simply because they run continuous and we run batches. Of course there's overlap, but it's not the same.
And I've tasted samples at the same abv, drawn off at the same temp that taste different. I'm sure you have as well.

I competely agree that you can rely on your notes to see when temps or abv dictates the transition point is at approximately. The finer you dial in your ferments, the better you can use this method.
I think NZChris agrees with you here, but he still uses his senses to dictate where he wants to make his cuts instead of using the numbers, he uses the numers as an indication where the transition will be.

Again, this doesn't apply to new distillers. And for slightly more experienced ones like me neither. Because I'm not the data logging analytical kind of person to make this work.

I have to agree with SBB here, this seems really confusing for new distillers.

Not dissing PID's yet. But I wouldn't recommend them to everyone either.

[Corsaire]

I have managed to run my reflux still on 78 degrees for over 30 mins now using a PID.

Someone please let me know where to upload a 2 min and a 30 min video anonymously? Thanks!

I thought this thread was supposed to cover using pid to control a pot still in a spirit run.
That's what I mean, confusing.

Still interested in your video charcoal!

[charcoal]

I have managed to run my reflux still on 78 degrees for over 30 mins now using a PID.

Someone please let me know where to upload a 2 min and a 30 min video anonymously? Thanks!

I thought this thread was supposed to cover using pid to control a pot still in a spirit run.
That's what I mean, confusing.

Still interested in your video charcoal!

Sorry! I was not aware that this was for a pot still. I use a reflux still as I am not a man of refined taste who can appreciate the fine flavours. I am a man of refined/rectified Alcohol.

My thread for the new reflux still is here. Before this, I used an Air Still, which is a pot still.

My Reflux Column is here

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=76373

After Installing an internal element, and crude insulation + a crudely installed PID, the still is here

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=77100&start=30

Now, let me find a way to upload a video without making myself famous.

[cayars]

Maybe you can point me toward those threads , cause I sure as shit haven't seen them.

Here's one of them
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76333&start=75

If that's not what you meant why the hell say it.......I and other members are going to take that at face value?
If you cant get the cuts right on something as simple as a sugar wash ...how the hell are you going to get the cuts right on any other spirit?...some of of which you claim to have been making for years.

Distilled sugar washes no matter how many times through the still, really don't taste good to me at all. I've even resorted to drip through carbon filtering. Still tastes like crap.

I'm surprised that a man of you considerable distilling talent cant make a simple sugar wash taste any good, even if you run it through carbon. that in its self shows bad fermentation methods/ a dodgy still / and or bad choices when it comes to cuts.
You then start trying to tell others who are experienced distillers how they should be doing things .......give me a break.
Not a singe thing in that post indicates experience to me......quite the opposite..it has newbie written all over it.
You may have spent time in the fuel industry but that does not make you by default a great Booze distiller.
I'm done with your BS and this thread.

I STILL feel this way Saltbush Bill. The cuts can be perfect but flavored sugar washes taste lousy to me. No amount of cuts regardless of how they are done improves the taste. Garbage in, garbage out type thing. Sugar washes to ME are bland and don't have the complexity of taste that grain, fruit or molasses washes have. Even as a neutral to me it's rather one dimensional in taste.

If you can magically make sugar washes taste like grain washes with their complexity then please start a thread on it and maybe I can learn from you. I'm always looking for cheaper and/or easier ways to make quality spirits.

Cayars, this is why you're drawing so much flack. New distillers are looking for the easy sure fire way to get started and want a step by step process. In their minds this is what you offer them.

Of course I've stated this isn't for new distillers so talking about an intermediate or advanced topic shouldn't be side tracked by that.

[StillerBoy]

Guessing thats a typo Mars 470k ohms and 47k ohms

yes.. and I have changed that.. thanks

Mars

[StillerBoy]

i better be the one to tell you your watt calculator is broken.

I'm a bit confused as well as 240.1 volts * 11.36 amps = 2727.5 watts.

Thanks guys.. and you are both correct and very observant..

The wattage,amp, volt LED meter (the white meter) is not a precise instrument, as observed by the reading given.. and what can one expected from low price instrument.. and so are all LED amp/volt meter, at least the ones I've played with, are not very precise in their reading of amps..

The instrument used has been tested with an electrician amp meter, and yes the the reading are different.. when I first started using them, I made a chart of the reading and their differences.. and since I use all 5500 watt elements in all my boilers, the reading from one element to the other were all within the range of being constant, I came to the conclusion that, the right number matter not.. but for all practical purpose, the exact number is not relevant, what is relevant is being able to use a number that reflects the best performance of the still with the task at hand..

Each temp probe meter is within a tenth of each other, and all reflect the exact temperature in their reading.. took a few extra probes to get it there, and it doesn't matter which probe I plug into a meter, they all give the same reading.. so the meters are good, it just the probes that can be off some..

Mars

[thecroweater]

@ cayers
Sugar washes have been done successfully by literally tens of thousands of folks. If yours are lousy and no amount of cutting improves them then it is something about your method that is at fault, assuming you are using a well reviewed recipe then the problem can really only be your still or method of running it and it may well be the type of controller you are using causing fractional smearing.