Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

[charcoal]

Thanks. I have arrived!

[Corsaire]

Just curious. Did you make corrections for temperature when you took your reading, and did you check your hydrometer?

[Corsaire]

BTW, what do you use to control heating power? And how you arrive at the value to use?

Still waiting on a couple of things to get my reflux rig running. I only ran some water through it in pot mode to check for leaks.

I use a cheap ssr controller off aliexpress.

[charcoal]

Just curious. Did you make corrections for temperature when you took your reading, and did you check your hydrometer?

Hydrometer is fairly accurate, I have 5 hydrometers (3 from a set with pot still, one from Ukraine, one came with Air Still). Also two refractometers of the same model. Refractometer is very accurate in the 40 degree range and has a compensation screw. The temperature is not that far from 20 c here.

[charcoal]

BTW, what do you use to control heating power? And how you arrive at the value to use?

Still waiting on a couple of things to get my reflux rig running. I only ran some water through it in pot mode to check for leaks.

I use a cheap ssr controller off aliexpress.

Do you have a diagram/photo of your reflux still?

[Hügelwilli]

One drop of water per second. I have wrapped the knob with tape and can show the flow in the evening.

Ok, now I looked closer and I think I understand now: You reuse the water. You have a reservoir with a pump. And the water cools down again in the reservoir. Sorry for the confusion.

[charcoal]

One drop of water per second. I have wrapped the knob with tape and can show the flow in the evening.

Ok, now I looked closer and I think I understand now: You reuse the water. You have a reservoir with a pump. And the water cools down again in the reservoir. Sorry for the confusion.

It is my washing machine. Pump came with the still. I should drain it now.

[Corsaire]

I don't have a photo yet. It's a basic keg with a ccvm on top of it, csst for reflux condenser.

I'll start a build thread when I've got everything I need.

[Saltbush Bill]

Why not run the setting to 212F and put it in Manuel srt the %

If I set it to 212 then it will move all the water to my collection vessel

charcoal please don't take offense , but that one simple question and your answer told any experienced distiller on the forum what you know about distilling and the way that the distillation process works.
What you know about running a still and how boiler / wash temps work at the moment is nothing...zip.. zero!
You have spent to much time listening to the BS sprouted by a couple of people who don't know there arse's from there elbows about things and to little time listening to those who do know how things work.
I doubt what I say will help as you seen determined to head down this path of PIDs and running boilers by temps.
Suggest you read this from end to end carefully and more than once if you don't understand what is being said the first time around.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77287
You also need to find information on the forum about why you cant control the Temperature of the wash in your boiler and then get your head around that part.......there is plenty on the subject if you search for it. If you cant find it let me know and I will l find it for you , or try to explain it to you in terms that you can easily understand.
Not trying to be rude , just trying to help.

[Yummyrum]

Charcoal , I’m surprised you managed to get as good as you did . I’m looking at that light blinking on and off wondering how the hell did that column maintain any sort if equilibrium .

I switched my Flute from CM to VM because I was getting terrible results due to flame variations with wind . Man you got an element thats switching on and off every couple of seconds .... whoow .

If you just switched out the PID for a regular power controller , I recon your AVB would go up a few more notches .Kinda what Corsiar was eluding to . Run max power you can before flooding and match your coolant flow to it and you will get the most reflux happening and the best /highest AVB because the still/ packing will be working at maximum efficiency .

I’m not dissing PIDs on reflux stills . Even Olddog had good results with one but that was with a constant boiler power and modulating the coolant flow with the PID . I think he eventually discovered that monitoring the coolant exit temp ( even though it had no relation to the vapour temp ) provided the best result .

He just found a number that worked and went off that.

I believe Wiifm uses a similar process .

PIDs can have a place in reflux still operation but not in a Pot still .

Good onya for having a try but their are definitely better results to be had .

[Saltbush Bill]

I’m not dissing PIDs on reflux stills . Even Olddog had good results with one but that was with a constant boiler power and modulating the coolant flow with the PID . I think he eventually discovered that monitoring the coolant exit temp ( even though it had no relation to the vapour temp ) provided the best result

Going on what your saying there Yummy , a PID isnt going to work very well on a Boka for arguments sake.....they only going to be usable on a Cooling Management reflux.
Seems people are trying to reinvent the wheel, we do things the way we do for good reason, most of this other stuff has been tried before.and has been found to not work that well if at all. Very little in this hobby is ever genuinely new.

[StillerBoy]

I personally wouldn't go as far as saying you don't knowing anything about running a still.. but sure have a long ways to go.. at least you put one together.. now you will need to spend time getting to know what vapors are..

The result stated stated in a previous post and my questioning them and after looking at the video, there's major room for improvement and understand of stilling.. for one the amount of water in the tub of the washing machine should have been boiling and requiring ice if the still was run properly.. the drip rate I saw was not running the still.. and made no cuts.. and to run the element at same constant power setting of a few drops.. I'm surprise it didn't stop producing..

You have failed to develop an understanding of how vapor are produced and how they work in the distillation system (column)..

Not trying to put you down, but I'm in agreement with the previous two posters with their comments..

Mars

[Tummydoc]

"...please dont take offense, but...." Kinda warns you that a rigid sigmoidoscopy without lubricant is coming up.

[HDNB]

you know what i don't get about your data is the temp of 78* above the deflag, and the it is only being fed 1 drop per (whatever unit of time). the deflag must be hot, since it has no cooling, so how is the temp above it only 78*? it makes no sense to me.

additionally, when i choke the cooling on my RC to a wee trickle, and it heats up i also get little to no reflux on the plates, they become little more than an impediment to the vapour and of course if i measure my temperature above the RC it is significantly hotter than 78*, since there is no cooling taking place in the RC...

now, when i operate under these circumstances, my ABV output (will be dependent on the ABV of the still charge) will be significantly lower than 95%...probably more like 60 at the beginning of a run and 35 at the end...i'd never get close to 95. even charged at 40% i maybe would get 90 if the RC is fed a trickle.

Can you think of a reason that your system works so substantially different than mine? how do your physics differ from mine?

now i understand you use electricity, throttled as described. I use steam, but i can manually slow the boil and modulate it however i want, but i will never see a temp of 78* above my RC no matter what my combination of heat in /cooling of RC and have an output of any thing at any time....save a few drops of fores on heat up. Most of my booze is made between 185 and 196 at the top of the column. in the 68- 78%abv range, ( ball park, at my altitude)

Given a fixed RC cooling input the only thing that changes when i modulate heat down is the output speed drops and the ABV rises slightly...or vice-versa...but never one without the other.

you simply must explain how you can collect so fast at such low temp and reduced heat and reduced cooling. you have literally found the holy grail that every distiller -ever- has not been able to do. large distillers would make you rich to show them how.

[Expat]

"...please dont take offense, but...." Kinda warns you that a rigid sigmoidoscopy without lubricant is coming up.

Sometimes having a direct conversation is the best approach. We're here to learn and share within genial limits, not coddle.

[Saltbush Bill]

sigmoidoscopy

Had to google that , learned a new word and what it means Thanks TD

[Corsaire]

Well, he is a tummydoc

[HDNB]

sigmoidoscopy

Had to google that , learned a new word and what it means Thanks TD

definitely a word where book learnin' is far preferable to practical experience

[still_stirrin]

sigmoidoscopy

Had to google that , learned a new word and what it means Thanks TD

definitely a word where book learnin' is far preferable to practical experience

Over 50 here...so “been there...done that”!

[charcoal]

Charcoal , I’m surprised you managed to get as good as you did . I’m looking at that light blinking on and off wondering how the hell did that column maintain any sort if equilibrium .

I switched my Flute from CM to VM because I was getting terrible results due to flame variations with wind . Man you got an element thats switching on and off every couple of seconds .... whoow .

If you just switched out the PID for a regular power controller , I recon your AVB would go up a few more notches .Kinda what Corsiar was eluding to . Run max power you can before flooding and match your coolant flow to it and you will get the most reflux happening and the best /highest AVB because the still/ packing will be working at maximum efficiency .

I’m not dissing PIDs on reflux stills .

PIDs can have a place in reflux still operation but not in a Pot still .

Good onya for having a try but their are definitely better results to be had .

Do you still have your cm still? And I don't have a pot still. I have a reflux still

And what is the ABV you get now? And does your cm reflux have a thermowell on top?

[Corsaire]

Just curious. Did you make corrections for temperature when you took your reading, and did you check your hydrometer?

Hydrometer is fairly accurate
...
The temperature is not that far from 20 c here.

Here's a detail, don't know if you know this already.
You should always measure the temp of the liquid when you take a hydrometer reading. The sample temp doesn't always equal air temp, especially not straight from the still.
Numbers can be off if the sample isn't at the temperature your hydrometer's calibrated at.

Do you have another run planned anytime soon? I wonder if we can persuade you to set the target temperature higher, and you can up the coolant flow to keep your desired 78 degrees. See what that gives as a result.
I think your column should handle the 2kw no problems.

[charcoal]

Just curious. Did you make corrections for temperature when you took your reading, and did you check your hydrometer?

Hydrometer is fairly accurate
...
The temperature is not that far from 20 c here.

Here's a detail, don't know if you know this already.
You should always measure the temp of the liquid when you take a hydrometer reading. The sample temp doesn't always equal air temp, especially not straight from the still.
Numbers can be off if the sample isn't at the temperature your hydrometer's calibrated at.

Do you have another run planned anytime soon? I wonder if we can persuade you to set the target temperature higher, and you can up the coolant flow to keep your desired 78 degrees. See what that gives as a result.
I think your column should handle the 2kw no problems.

Let's see if I can show you my results tonight. Stay tuned!!!

[Corsaire]

Sweet, thanks for doing the experiment!

[shadylane]

Pretend your making a stripping run
Begin with no cooling water to the Dephlagmator
Lot's of water to the product condenser
Full power to the heater
When the still starts pissing at a 2000w rate
Run your hand over the product condenser and Adjust it so the temp change happens at the halfway point.
Now you have everything set up like it was a stripping run.

Next slowly open the Dephlagmator cooling valve until the distillate just barely stops.
Congratulations, the CM rig is now in 100% reflux.
Mark or memorize the positions of the dephleg and product condenser cooling valves for future reference.

[Yummyrum]

Do you still have your cm still? And I don't have a pot still. I have a reflux still
I have the Deflags and bits if I need to reassemble it but I don’t think I need to go back there
This is my 2” when it was modified with a CM head . Admittedly the deflag was undersized

This was the only pic I could find of my 4” in CM mode. It’s sitting on a small keg just for the pic . When I ran it , it was on a 50 liter keg .

And what is the ABV you get now?
95.5% AVB on the 4” but its running in VM mode and as hard as I can push it . Nower days I’ time poor and I’m about getting it done as fast as I can . Back when I was playing with the 2” CM, I was happy to spend a day watching drips and collecting at close to 96% as I could . Incidentally , the 2” CM sucked so I converted it back to VM again LOL
And does your cm reflux have a thermowell at the top

The 2” does because back then I was curious and was a thermometer watcher ....the 4” doesn’t because by then I had realized it didn’t make the booze any better

[charcoal]

Why not run the setting to 212F and put it in Manuel srt the %

If I set it to 212 then it will move all the water to my collection vessel

What does this sentence mean?

Why not run the setting to 212F and put it in Manuel srt the %

[charcoal]

Sweet, thanks for doing the experiment!

Today my camera was not properly set. And the older phone I took it on stopped working on 13 min mark. I had drunk 40 ml vodka on the last step so it cannot go on today. But I will do it on Saturday/Sunday. I can still share the video just to you if you so want.

[Saltbush Bill]

What does this sentence mean?
Why not run the setting to 212F and put it in Manuel srt the %

To put it simply ..to me it means let the boiler do what it wants to do and boil at the temp that it wants to boil at.
Again you can not control the temp of the wash.. you can only control how hard it boils by putting more or less energy/ power into the boiler............it will do what it wants when it wants so you have absolutely nothing to loose by setting it to 212F or 100C
Hopefully AC will come back and tell you what he meant.

If I set it to 212 then it will move all the water to my collection vessel

Maybe you would like to elaborate on what you meant by this ?

[Corsaire]

I think charcoal firmly believes in the temperature trap.
If he heats to 212f only water will come over.

I think he runs his still like they do with glass aircooled reflux columns in labs. No forced reflux, careful heating of the boiler with a thermometer on top. Let the air cooling do the passive reflux while you heat it just right so you get your target temp at the top of the column.

Traditionally this was a very fiddly job that forced you into an intimate relationship with a bunsen burner. Now a pid does that.

Forced reflux speeds up this process considerably.

[charcoal]

There is forced reflux. I don't heat anything to 212 or 115, I just let pid run the Power to give me a temp after the dephlagmator. Is it ok to pm you?