No Mash No sugar

[Beerswimmer]

Nice! Please tell us what the flavor of the yeast is like.

I can't imagine that the enzymes would reproduce like yeast, unless it's some crazy GMO yeast that produces it's OWN yeast. That would revolutionize the fuel industry!

[HDNB]

along with a 25kg bag of long grain rice

so much for not doing volume.

great experiment and documention on this yeast combo...i'm excited to hear tasting notes on the likker and the efficiency you are getting.

[Teddysad]

BTW, how long did the bourbon mash take to ferment?

Just over 2 weeks at room temps (22 to 25C)

[cayars]

along with a 25kg bag of long grain rice

Any reason you went with long grain vs short which is usually much better for making alcohol?
Short grain has the highest starch content and is what is mostly used with Koji. Of course long grain is usually cheaper so you may get more ABV per dollar with long grain. Probably far less important when distilling then making a rice wine. Did I just answer my own question?

Teddy have you ever done rice wines, Koji or anything rice related before or is this a new frontier for you?

[Teddysad]

so much for not doing volume.

great experiment and documention on this yeast combo...i'm excited to hear tasting notes on the likker and the efficiency you are getting.
[/quote]

I figured why not?? It was not expensive and will give me enough for stripping and then doing a full sized vodka run.
The bag was less that half the price of a top end vodka at the store.
The rice one will have to be damned good to even match my TFFV and the economics are probably similar.

[Teddysad]

along with a 25kg bag of long grain rice

Any reason you went with long grain vs short which is usually much better for making alcohol?
Short grain has the highest starch content and is what is mostly used with Koji. Of course long grain is usually cheaper so you may get more ABV per dollar with long grain. Probably far less important when distilling then making a rice wine. Did I just answer my own question?

Teddy have you ever done rice wines, Koji or anything rice related before or is this a new frontier for you?

I read that long grain has more starch and also separates best so I figured to give the enzymes and yeast best chance to get at the grains. Also it was cheapest.
No I have done nothing with rice before (other than my initial 5 litre test ferment) so like so much of my stuff it is a new direction.

Update I have now read up more on amylose and amylopectin the two types of starches in rice. If this current trial works well I will also do it with short grain maybe with medium as well all at the same time to see if it makes a difference

[Corsaire]

Thanks for your tests. Just ordered some angel yeast as well. Rice is cheap.
Funny thing is a brewshop here just started carrying angel brewing yeast. The cost is considerably higher than what it goes for on aliexpress.

[NZChris]

I've got three different Angel products, all for different purposes and they sell a lot more types, so don't confuse them.

I don't know how easy it's going to be to get goods out of China while the current epidemic is a problem, so I've stopped buying from there.

[Beerswimmer]

I also purchased from China through Aliexpress, the only problem is when the F will get here? My order has a 2 month window on delivery date. It would be nice to find a source that will deliver here to the USA in a reasonable amount of time.

I'll be sure to clean everything and use gloves when receiving

[Twisted Brick]

Any reason you went with long grain vs short which is usually much better for making alcohol?

I read that long grain has more starch and also separates best so I figured to give the enzymes and yeast best chance to get at the grains. Also it was cheapest.

I have yet to start any rice trials, but from my reading, short-grain is what you want. I can't find the reference right now, but a side-by-side comparison of short grains listed the Calrose strain as (slightly) best for conversion.

This may help, especially the section on Rice grains Quality Attributes for Brewing. The author also notes the reliability of the use of multiple enzymes in a stepped mash regime.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I'll be sure to clean everything and use gloves when receiving

There's no reason, lad

That virus kicks the bucket in 2-4 days, depending on substrate, surface and humudity. In other words, don't use the keyboard or mouse belonging to the sick/suspected just after he/she was hospitalized.

[Teddysad]

Ok further to report
Racked and strained the bourbon mash.
22 litres of fermented wash/mash
Put it through my 30l stripping still
ended up with 4.6 litres which was at 41%.
Main part smelled very nice. Got cloudy and tailsey towards the end
Pretty happy with that as a yield.

Not enough on its own to put through the big bubbler column so I will aggregate it with a few other all grain runs when I can do a nice controlled big 2nd run.

[cayars]

That looks pretty good Teddysad.

Working it as a math problem 4.6 liters at 41% = 2.116 liters of pure alcohol
Divide that by 22 liters = 0.0961818182 or 9.16% (rounded) ferment ABV

Any chance we can get you to hold this stripped run until you have enough for a spirit run? Then you can give us a smell/taste comparison of just this yeast/fermentation process compared to others you've done? Without knowing how it turns out on it's own is kind of a let down as we'll never know if the yeast was happy or pissed off and produced off flavors or lovely ones.

Any chance to for a single spirit run of just this?

[Teddysad]

That looks pretty good Teddysad.

Any chance we can get you to hold this stripped run until you have enough for a spirit run? Then you can give us a smell/taste comparison of just this yeast/fermentation process compared to others you've done? Without knowing how it turns out on it's own is kind of a let down as we'll never know if the yeast was happy or pissed off and produced off flavors or lovely ones.

Any chance to for a single spirit run of just this?

My main machine is a 50l keg boiler with a 120mm column and bubble plates. A sub 5l run is impractical. My smaller one is set up at a stripper only
I plan to combine several of my experimental ferments Barley wheat and 2 x corn (all with the same yeast) as a controlled spirit run --- along with this combined grain one taking cuts etc.
Indications at this stage are: Yes it works and Yes I am getting a pretty good yield
It is a long term experiment and with the now receipt of more yeast I will ramp up for the next one perhaps comparing it with A: malted grains and B: liquid enzymes.
My 60l conical fermenter has just delivered its load of an all grain bourbon style done with HiTemp enzymes so I guess that will be pressed into work next. The gardener and I can only consume so much (well she can do heaps but her main tipple is of course TFFV)

In the event of a flavour wipeout, I have the backstop of rerunning it through the reflux for what I am confident will be a bloody good vodka.

I believe several others are also going to use / trial this stuff so will be great to get feedback from multiple directions

[jonnys_spirit]

This sounds similar to making sake which uses the koji or mold spores that you cultivate and they supply the enzymes to convert starches to sugars and you use a selected yeast for AF - combining both steps into one. The rice is step fed into the cold mash over a period of time. I don’t see why you couldn’t use grains and other starches for this process but you do typically steam and cool the rice first (cook it). By step feeding the starches into the cold-mash you can push the yeast slowly and get the alcohol content up to 20%’ish and the sugar content is always pretty low at any point because the enzymatic activity is apparently fairly slow - converting starches to sugars then quickly to alcohol over a period of weeks. I made this cold mash sake and used the koji starter kit from the LHBS, a lactic infection for the acidity, and a lager yeast for the cold mash. Step feeding the cooked rice.

Cheers!
-jonny

[jonnys_spirit]

I think a continuous batch with continuous koji-kin cultivation is possible along with lactic culturing and lager yeast culturing in the cold-mash to keep it going.

[Beerswimmer]

Good to hear Teddy! I have no idea what corn+rice+others will taste like, I'm guessing an Irish style whiskey? As long as the yeast tastes OK I'm still in! Mine is now less than 14 days before shipping, so it's going to be a while for me. I'll do a big no-cook ferment of a corn and Veinna malt bourbon.










Someday...

[cayars]

Curious if anyone has done a side by side or back to back batch of raw grains vs cooked grains (get starches faster)? <-- with any grain or rice?
If not is it on the list of things to try?

Any good places to order this for those living in the US? I might get in or the fun and help contribute info.

[Teddysad]

Todays result:
From the Wheat ferment (5kg crushed raw wheat,)
22l of drained mash into the stripper and output 4.1l of low wines as 39%.
This is starting to be pretty consistent.
I now have the 2 finished corns to do - cooked and uncooked. (in answer to cayars query)


My aggregate run will not include the rice I will keep that separate. This way I will have a reasonable bourbon / whiskey type of run Corn, Wheat and Barley and Rye

[Beerswimmer]

My yeast finally arrived Tomorrow I'll be stopping at the feed store for my corn and hopefully pitch the yeast by nighttime.


Any updates Teddy?

EDIT: I'm postponing due to week long travel next weekend. I'll start it the day before I leave so that it will be finished when I return. I just don't want it to sit a week or more for no reason.

[Beerswimmer]

About 10 mins ago I pitched a half cup of Angel yeast onto 50lbs cracked corn run through my mill and 15lbs Vienna malt plus 30 gallons of water. I also added a mesh sack with about 10lbs of seashells. Tomorrow I'll do the same and have 2 ferments going, hopefully do 2 strips back to back when these are done and then a spirit run. The spirit run will have another strip that was fermented with my normal bread yeast.

I have enough corn left do do a full batch of 100% corn whiskey too.

[Beerswimmer]

14 hours later it's fermenting as rigorously as any other ferment. Crazy!

[WithOrWithoutU2]

Have you reported how it tastes?

[Beerswimmer]

Fermentation has just about stopped. Will strip in the next day or so. It's extremely sour!

[Beerswimmer]

It could't wait another day. Sour and getting stanky, smelling like vomit. The lack of boiling is apparent! I have 24 gallons stripping, at the halfway point of the strip and I only have half the volume as normal. I checked the other wash and it's at 1.010. Not so great. Maybe my corn needed to go through the mill again? I'm positive I used enough "stuff", the barley was milled really fine, nice hot garage with temps around 80F. Twice as easy to make, but only half the abv.

[42shine]

I'm currently using blue-pack angel yeast to make a batch of bourbon with good success.

[NZChris]

It could't wait another day. Sour and getting stanky, smelling like vomit. The lack of boiling is apparent! I have 24 gallons stripping, at the halfway point of the strip and I only have half the volume as normal. I checked the other wash and it's at 1.010. Not so great. Maybe my corn needed to go through the mill again? I'm positive I used enough "stuff", the barley was milled really fine, nice hot garage with temps around 80F. Twice as easy to make, but only half the abv.

Don't strip while it still smells of vomit. Wait until it converts to pineapple, or you'll be stuck with it. This subject has been discussed here many times. Search for it.

[Beerswimmer]

Well shit, I never saw it How much longer does it usually take? With no heating this went sour and started to get smelly really fast. I'm wondering what some ways are to prevent that?

[NZChris]

Well shit, I never saw it How much longer does it usually take? With no heating this went sour and started to get smelly really fast. I'm wondering what some ways are to prevent that?

Not long, two or three days I've heard. It's a desirable infection in some products, but you have to wait for the ester to form. I'm having a beer and can't be bothered repeating everything that has already been said on this subject.

If you can, do a starch test and boil some trub and do a starch test on that too. It might give you some idea of how much conversion this product did for you.

Can you test the pH? If you didn't have any form of Calcium Carbonate in the fermenters you might have had pH crashes causing them to stall. Whole shells are my preference for this trick.

[Beerswimmer]

I had a bag with about 10lbs of seashells in each. I'll add some more yeast while I wait.