Ph crashes in sugar washes

[bastardbrewer]

Nice one bluefish that helped. first put in 4gr citric acid and 4gr CC, then waited a bit and pitched yeast. Now next morning it still crashed to 3.2 though, so had to add even more CC to get it above 4. the citric acid and CC didnt seem to buffer at all.

Not sure what happened there. So far so good and still bubbling away nicely, hardly foam but plenty of bubbles and movement in the wash.

[NZChris]

4g of CC wont last long if pH is dropping, which is the reason I don't bother using powdered CC.

I use whole large shells so that, as the surface dissolves, the surface area of CC available to react with the acids doesn't change much. I put the shells in at the start, before I'm in trouble, then I can forget about pH for the rest of the ferment, when I either distill it, or remove the shells because they can wreck a finished ferment if they raise the pH much over 7.

[bluefish_dist]

Nice one bluefish that helped. first put in 4gr citric acid and 4gr CC, then waited a bit and pitched yeast. Now next morning it still crashed to 3.2 though, so had to add even more CC to get it above 4. the citric acid and CC didnt seem to buffer at all.

Not sure what happened there. So far so good and still bubbling away nicely, hardly foam but plenty of bubbles and movement in the wash.

For 100 gallon I added around a cup of each. If I remember correctly that was 1lb of cc and 1/2 lb of citric. That would give a dose rate of 4g/gallon on the cc. Also I did adjust that to meet each product. Some more, some less. When it was right, ph would be between 4 and 4.25 after 24 hrs. You can add too much and the ph won’t drop. This makes the wash more susceptible to infection.

[bastardbrewer]

It's done it again, big foam like bubbles bubbling right out the waterlock hole, filling the lid and the floor of the cupboard. Can't help but feel its a reaction between the CC, yeast and perhaps the leftover rice that didnt get broken down fully by the sebstar products. Don't know what else it could be. Maybe have to go back to basics and find out step by step who's the culprit.

[NZChris]

What form of CC are you using bastardbrewer?

[StillerBoy]

It's done it again, big foam like bubbles bubbling right out the waterlock hole, filling the lid and the floor of the cupboard.

What you are experiencing is not a Ph issue.. it's a wash / mash ingredient issue.. and it also a head space issue.. certainly not a CC reaction..

Some combination of ingredients will cause lots foaming, requiring either more head space in the fermenter, or the use of an anti-foaming agent.. malt and rice are known for their foaming and requiring more head space..

Mars

[Durhommer]

When I do malt Stillerboy I use a 30 gallon blue barrel and I do off grain I fill it to 25 gallon and use a hose into a gallon milk jug as blowoff/airlock it goes nuts for the first few days but settle down by day 4.when I open it the krausen ring is really high up the barrel walls but no overflow

[bluefish_dist]

Have you added any fermcap at? It really helps. Grain mashes tended to foam more for me. More than once I came in to a few gallons on the floor. The worst was a porter beer. Black sticky foam everywhere. Adding fermcap which is an anti foam helps. The other solution is more headspace in the fermenter.

[Durhommer]

Headspace is key

[StillerBoy]

Headspace is key

Being mindful that head space is important.. plus that when it's not possible, to use an anti-foam agent.. and half the head space with be required..

You have to options with doing those grains..

Mars

[Durhommer]

I get it ...if you're cheap like me you buy the bare necessities and master your techniques

[bastardbrewer]

Thanks gents, it is ordinary CC in granular shape form a reputable brewing equipment distributor. I fill till 25 liter / 5g in a 30 liter / 6g bucket.
Havent used fermcap before... will look into it. So next time i'll just have to only fill till 23ltr or so or use that fermcap... and the list of additional supplements keeps growing

think i thought it was the CC as I have started using that recently, perhaps just one of those silly assumptions you make without realising.

cheers,
BB

[rubberduck71]

Adding CC can cause a reaction and release a lot of trapped co2. Think mentos is coke or baking soda and vinegar. The trick is to add it in small amounts. This allows it to foam without going crazy. Also wait between additions to give it time to react. Nothing worse than adding too much and watching your fermenter turn into a fountain.

Wish I'd read this about 6 hours ago. My BW stalled and my ph meter said it was just below 3.0. After some research (but alas, prior to reading this part), I added some soda ash (sodium carbonate) - I didn't have any calcium carbonate handy, and didn't want the side effects I'd read about baking soda affecting taste.

Poured in 1 tbsp and used a drill mixer - whoops... foamed up like a fiend! Luckily I had my 7 gallon bucket inside a storage bin, so while it easily overflowed the side of the bucket, it never touched the hardwood floor. She who must be obeyed* would have had a royal freak-out with my new hobby.

*not sure who coined this phrase, but it's a classic that I'll be holding onto...

[Royco]

Just started a 27L mainly sugar plus some molasses wash (yesterday). Our water pH is 6,5 and the wash pH started at 4,5 and now at 3,5.
Can't find a source of calc carbonate so today in desperation flung in 2 Tbsp bicarb, which does not seem to be recommended. Also found a bottle of quail eggshells (crushed) and put in a sock full. From reading up it seems the eggshells do not help after the horse has bolted, but may stop further pH falling? I will get another reading and see if it has helped at all.
Have done a few sugar washes now and never worried about the pH. In future will correct the level from the start.
Incidentally my neighbour owns a seafood restaurant specialising in oysters! He said anytime I need just bring a bucket and he will fill it.

[Royco]

Poured in 1 tbsp and used a drill mixer - whoops... foamed up like a fiend! Luckily I had my 7 gallon bucket inside a storage bin, so while it easily overflowed the side of the bucket, it never touched the hardwood floor. She who must be obeyed* would have had a royal freak-out with my new hobby.

*not sure who coined this phrase, but it's a classic that I'll be holding onto...

rubberduck it is indeed a classic expression, to the extent it has a universal acronym: SWMBO!

[goinbroke2]

Hi guys, I've been doing bigger and bigger washes lately and now that I've gone to 120L washes I'm having issues.
First batch went well and I got 5 gal of 74% from 120L when it was all said and done. (pot still, strip then spirit run)
Second batch I got about 3 gal or a bit more from the same size wash.
The only differences is the first batch fermented 4-5 days and then I ran it. Second wash was exact same recipe but ran around 9 days because I couldn't get to it. The temp did drop a bit in the stilling room but it fermented fine the whole time. (or so I thought)

Never checked the ph (although I have an electronic tester)
So, about 20kg's of sugar (I forget exactly, used the calculator to get 10% I think) about 5 lb's of cracked corn and topped up the 121L can with 90* water.

I came on here and saw this thread and went and bought some calcium carbonate and an "acid pack" that included citric acid and a couple other acids for brewing beer. Anyway thanks for the thread and all the insight, I do have one question,
What should the starting PH be? Water currently is a well (very rocky on this mountain) and about 7.8ph.
What should I reduce it to, or, should I leave it and correct it after 24hr's?

I see "equal parts of acid and carbonate" that's fine, but how much in 120L?

Is there a calculator I haven't found?

Thanks

[StillerBoy]

What should the starting PH be? Water currently is a well (very rocky on this mountain) and about 7.8ph.
What should I reduce it to, or, should I leave it and correct it after 24hr's?

Sugar wash should at the Ph of 5.5 at the pitching time.. re-checked at the 10 hr after pitiching and making the adjustment to Ph of 4.2 - 4.5.. using calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide available a building supply store..

Make sure that the fermentation temp is kept at a stable fermenting temp of 85*.. on large volume, pitch at 90* and maintain it at 85*, that with using bread yeast..

Mars

[goinbroke2]

Excellent, thanks Mars.

Picked up a 25kg bag of corn sugar because I messed up the math in my head and thought it was a really good deal. I think I'll put on a batch of beer with it and then do up another batch of sugar wash with the rest.

Thanks again, I'll follow those numbers and see what happens.

[bluefish_dist]

Pitching ph should be 5.2-5.6. It does make a difference in how the wash finishes. Adjust with backset or citric acid.

[Yaakov]

Also your starting ph has nothing to do with a ph crash, it's about the alkalinity (buffering capabilities) of your water.

Have you experimented or played with variest wash/mash starting PH..

Of course I have. I have very soft water,( I've had it checked several times for making beer) and I know if I'm making a sugar wash the PH is gonna crash terribly so I'll buffer it upwards with pickling lime.(I use a Milwaukee 102 PH meter) On the other hand, someone else may live in the mountains and have very hard water from all of the rock the water has to pass through, picking up calcium and magnesium along the way, which will buffer the wash. And while we both have a starting PH of 7 (due to the ionic balance), my wash will certainly crash into the 2's and the alkaline water may only drop a few points, it may not stall at all. That's why it's silly for a recipe to say "add 2 tablespoons of lemon juice or x amount of carbonate" for a perfect ferment. everyones water is different so every ferment will be different. All that said, if your sure PH is crashing then stalling, throw a few tablespoons of carbonate in.

Yes

[Andrew_90]

Bit of a necro post.

Normally my sugar washes crash from pH 8.0 to pH 3.9 and I have adjusted them with Bicarbonate of Soda. Every day the pH drops and I need to add a little Bicarbonate of Soda.

So having stumbled on the Oyster Shell workaround I produced a 50l sacrificial batch of sugar wash at 13:30 yesterday. The recommended 1 cup of oyster shells were added.

At 09:00 this morning the pH was 3.9 (normal without shells). This is disappointing as I thought the shells will solve the problem.

Added some Bicarbonate of Soda to bring her up, lets see if the shells can hold the pH stable.

[shadylane]

You should have waited.
3.9 isn't that low, Yeast doesn't mind it.
But 3.9 is kryptonite to bacteria.

The shell grit would have kept the pH around that.
As the grit dissolves, it also adds bluffering.

[NZChris]

"The recommended 1 cup of oyster shells were added."

Recommended by who? If it was for crushed shell, I bet it wasn't me.

Patience. Wait and see what happens.

Where did you get the idea that Bicarb. was a suitable chemical for adjusting pH in a ferment?

[Andrew_90]

Hi, thanks for the response.

On this forum the conventional wisdom was circa 1 cup of crushed shells per 50l wash. Shady's SS recipe is for 75l and her recommends a cup or two. I am using Shady's recipe but at 50l and have added a cup of crushed oyster shells, a little more than half his recommended.

Use of Bicarb? I use it on aquaria to raise pH, its safe for human consumption and I use it for acid reflux. Figured if it did not harm little fishy's it would not harm the wash. Been trying to move away from Bicarb hence the oyster shells for buffering pH. And I have read it is ok in a couple of searches.

Added: Based on past experience 4 tsp's of Bicarb raises the pH in 50l's of wash from 3.9 to 5.1.

[bluefish_dist]

Shells are effective in small washes (5-15gal) but I found they did not dissolve fast enough in bigger (100/300) ones to prevent a ph crash. Try powder calcium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. Not good to add all the salt. Also a ph of 3.9 is just fine. You will get good flavor, less chance of infection and it will still ferment. Get down to 3.5-3.7 you will start having issues with fermentation. When I adjusted ph, I just would adjust to above 4.0, not back to 5.0. That would have taken huge amounts of calcium.

When adding CC, add it slowly. You are dealing with a carbonated beverage and adding a reactant. Good way to get it all out on the floor. Don’t ask me how I know this. Btw the reaction is delayed and once started, can’t be stopped.

[frunobulax]

Shells are effective in small washes (5-15gal) but I found they did not dissolve fast enough in bigger (100/300) ones to prevent a ph crash. Try powder calcium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. Not good to add all the salt. Also a ph of 3.9 is just fine. You will get good flavor, less chance of infection and it will still ferment. Get down to 3.5-3.7 you will start having issues with fermentation. When I adjusted ph, I just would adjust to above 4.0, not back to 5.0. That would have taken huge amounts of calcium.

When adding CC, add it slowly. You are dealing with a carbonated beverage and adding a reactant. Good way to get it all out on the floor. Don’t ask me how I know this. Btw the reaction is delayed and once started, can’t be stopped.

Calcium carbonate and oyster shells are the same thing, neither are easily dissolved in a wash. The better choice would be sodium bicarbonate,(except for the salt, as mentioned) or Calcium hydroxide.
I am reiterating my comments made earlier in this post.

[bluefish_dist]

Shells are effective in small washes (5-15gal) but I found they did not dissolve fast enough in bigger (100/300) ones to prevent a ph crash. Try powder calcium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. Not good to add all the salt. Also a ph of 3.9 is just fine. You will get good flavor, less chance of infection and it will still ferment. Get down to 3.5-3.7 you will start having issues with fermentation. When I adjusted ph, I just would adjust to above 4.0, not back to 5.0. That would have taken huge amounts of calcium.

When adding CC, add it slowly. You are dealing with a carbonated beverage and adding a reactant. Good way to get it all out on the floor. Don’t ask me how I know this. Btw the reaction is delayed and once started, can’t be stopped.

Calcium carbonate and oyster shells are the same thing, neither are easily dissolved in a wash. The better choice would be sodium bicarbonate,(except for the salt, as mentioned) or Calcium hydroxide.
I am reiterating my comments made earlier in this post.

If the wash is acidic calcium carbonate dissolves quite quickly if in powder form. Exactly as needed to raise the ph. If it’s a normal ph the solubility is pretty low, this actually helps keep from raising the ph too much. If you see my posts above, that’s why when I buffer, I add both citric and CC so that the acid dissolves the calcium. Ph will still be 5 ish, yet there are extra calcium ions dissolved to buffer.

[shadylane]

Shells are effective in small washes (5-15gal) but I found they did not dissolve fast enough in bigger (100/300) ones to prevent a ph crash. Try powder calcium carbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate. Not good to add all the salt. Also a ph of 3.9 is just fine. You will get good flavor, less chance of infection and it will still ferment. Get down to 3.5-3.7 you will start having issues with fermentation. When I adjusted ph, I just would adjust to above 4.0, not back to 5.0. That would have taken huge amounts of calcium.

When adding CC, add it slowly. You are dealing with a carbonated beverage and adding a reactant. Good way to get it all out on the floor. Don’t ask me how I know this. Btw the reaction is delayed and once started, can’t be stopped.

+1 on all the above.
And the shell grit needs to be in a bag up off the bottom of the fermenter.
Calcium carbonate is good for moderating the pH but it has a downfall.
It makes it harder for yeast to get at the magnesium it needs.
A big pinch of Esom salt ( magnesium sulfate ) takes care of that.

CC helps moderate the pH.
Too adjust the pH, Pickling lime AKA calcium hydroxide works better.
Just be careful, it's real easy to over do it.
Ya don't want to be making blue moonshine

[bluc]

Try changing a bigger % of your grain bed with fresh grain each gen(including spent all grain mash grain) it is a good buffer and boosts flavour.

[bcook608]

Dead post, but I didn't see dosage recommendations for Calcium Hydroxide. Do you just add small amounts to the wash and check a half hour or so later? I'm assuming you're stirring gently to incorporate but not enough to introduce more oxygen.