Condenser Controlled Columns

[Boozewaves]

Great to read that, welcome to the growing group of happy CCVM operators!

It's a great type of still and very easy to put together if using triclamp pieces. Running it slowly has made my best neutral yet

[Mozzie]

After reading this thread several times I started the down the path to make a 2" CCVM... However I was gifted 49" of 4" Type L pipe.

I want to start moving forward on my build, but i'd rather get it right the first time instead of rushing headlong down the wrong path because I got the parts for cheap (in this case free)

Question I have is .... Is it a good idea to make a 4" CCVM knowing the main column would be 41" tall w/ a 8"cut off to house the RC?

I am planing on adding a sight glass just below the Tee so I assume that would add 8" or so (but would not be filled with packing)

I also have an overhead consideration ... 9' ceilings so a monster tall column is not in the cards

I will use a Keg with 5500W 240v heating element and plan to have a ~24" 4 x 1/2" shotgun condenser



I saw a post on CCVM Operation ( viewtopic.php?f=15&t=72592 ) where @DAD300 said...

...

I have a 4" with 36" of SPP and the vapor is azeo by the time it reaches the top with no reflux. Continued refluxing would just be mixing the components.

...

As for time to run a ?? gallon boiler, the still can be designed to run heat on to done in 5-6 hours. A 2" dia can do this on a keg. A 3" could do it in three hours. and a 4" on a keg is probably a waste.

Any faster and you get into product condenser issues... it becomes an arms race. A bigger boiler needs a bigger dia column, which needs more power, which needs a bigger product condenser to keep up! Once you have all that, you want to go faster and...

I just don't want to use that big pipe if
1) I don't have the length (that's what she said!)
2) I don't have the power
3) Don't have the cooling (if the answer to Q2 is go bigger)

Thanks for entertaining noob questions... I have a build thread in the "Novice Distillers forum" any feedback is greatly appreciated viewtopic.php?f=15&t=78648

[Expat]

After reading this thread several times I started the down the path to make a 2" CCVM... However I was gifted 49" of 4" Type L pipe.

Question I have is .... Is it a good idea to make a 4" CCVM knowing the main column would be 41" tall w/ a 8"cut off to house the RC?

I am planing on adding a sight glass just below the Tee so I assume that would add 8" or so (but would not be filled with packing)

I also have an overhead consideration ... 9' ceilings so a monster tall column is not in the cards

I will use a Keg with 5500W 240v heating element and plan to have a ~24" 4 x 1/2" shotgun condenser

I just don't want to use that big pipe if
1) I don't have the length (that's what she said!)
2) I don't have the power
3) Don't have the cooling (if the answer to Q2 is go bigger)

Thanks for entertaining noob questions... I have a build thread in the "Novice Distillers forum" any feedback is greatly appreciated viewtopic.php?f=15&t=78648

The question is more challenging as most people won't ever have access to 4" copper and so have their experience in smaller builds, disclosure, myself included.

1) For height on a reflux column, its roughly correct to say that height will provide higher levels for purity; which if you're looking to make neutral products is an advantage. Therefore make it as tall as possible within your working space; don't forget for a CCVM you'll need space to be able to lift the condenser.

Don't worry so much about running short on the length, as you could always add a stainless spool. The points that Dad300 made are valid, a 4" column can handle way more than a 15.5g keg and run times will be very short; but that doesn't mean its bad. I think what he was trying to convey as "waste" was that given the chance many members would build a plated still which required 4" diameter to operate properly, unlike CCVM. That said.... 2" is so slow it'll drive you crazy, 3" is a happy place. So if you feel you might want to try a more complex build later, perhaps save the 4".

Something more to think about. 4" Fittings like the tee and reducer for a CCVM will definitely be quite pricey, might be best to source out the parts before making your decision.

2) 5500w is plenty of power, not a concern. Note: you will require a power controller to allow you reduce power after the boiler is up to temperature. Plenty of SSR designs here on the site which will serve you nicely.

3) Cooling requirements are proportional to heat input, 5500w isn't that much, the proposed shotgun should be plenty.

Hope that helps

[Mozzie]

Thanks for the feedback Expat... I was originally looking at buying a flute, but came here and was enticed by the "simplicity" of the CCVM build.

If things go well and I get bored, I think I could cut the 4"CCVM into sections and make a modular flute. I have been reading the flute thread some, but that thing is a monster. (the thread)

I think the CCVM will test my soldering skills enough... don't need to take Karate lessons from Bruce Lee and attempt a flute build.

[Expat]

Thanks for the feedback Expat... I was originally looking at buying a flute, but came here and was enticed by the "simplicity" of the CCVM build.

If things go well and I get bored, I think I could cut the 4"CCVM into sections and make a modular flute. I have been reading the flute thread some, but that thing is a monster. (the thread)

I think the CCVM will test my soldering skills enough... don't need to take Karate lessons from Bruce Lee and attempt a flute build.

Yup understand, CCVM is great that way. Modular triclamp is for sure the way to build, easier from every aspect, and the stainless TC components are cheap and basically bulletproof.

LOL yeah, there is enough knowledge in that flute thread to teach a masters level class, and building one well is definitely amongst the most complicated challenges going. Some of those with existing trade skills can accomplish it first crack, but most others need to build up the basic skills. e.g. crafting and fitting the interior plates for a shotgun, being similar to doing the bubble plates (or others) in a flute.

[DAD300]

3" is a happy place on a 15.5 keg! Agreed...

A shorter 4" ain't bad, just more challenging.

One 5,5K element or a turkey burner is great.

[Mozzie]

3" is a happy place on a 15.5 keg! Agreed...

A shorter 4" ain't bad, just more challenging.

One 5,5K element or a turkey burner is great.

In your estimation, what height for a 4" would be less challenging?

I'm at 41" maintube before attaching ferrules + sight glass + Tee

What size spool would you add to make things "less challenging"? I like less challenging + Glacier tanks is having a sale

[Tummydoc]

Depends on your packing material. If your goal is a neutral, you want 13-14 theoretical plates. So based on the HETP (Height equivalent to a theoretical plate) of your packing material you can determine your desired height. You could get there with SPP, but it would be pricey. Your 41" x 4" column holds nearly 9 gallons of volume.

[Mozzie]

Your 41" x 4" column holds nearly 9 gallons of volume.

First of all thanks for the feedback. I'm just trying to learn and read as much as time and brain power allow.

I take your point about the packing... but unless I'm doing this wrong (and I really might be) it won't be anywhere near 9 gallons of volume

Area = 3.14 x 2in (r)^2 = 12.6 in^2
Cubic in = area (12.6 in^2) * Height (41in) = 516.6 in^3

1 gallon = 231 in^3

516.6 in^3 / 231 in^3 = 2.24 gallons


I'm a bit less concerned about the %alcohol. I'm most concerned about making a rig that is a pain to run well and just turns my time and effort into essence of wet dog. If a spool of piping will make a difference, I'll do that.

The keg will be ~24" + 41" main pipe + 8" sight glass + 10" Tee + 8" RC housing = 91"

I could add a foot and that would leave 6" to adjust the RC up and down (9ft ceiling)

[Tummydoc]

My bad, a I used 4 inch as the radius, DOH!

[DAD300]

The 4" "can" be so fast that you have to run it very slow.

I wasn't prepared to catch a quart every 4-6 minutes and got over run first time.

Makes it hard to make cuts in small increments.

[Mozzie]

I'm picturing the I love Lucy chocolate factory scene

[Sk8brew]

Thanks DAD and all of the contributers to this thread. There were some questions early on in the thread about power requirements that I didn't see a good answer to. I have a 10 gal electric boiler that is part of an all in one brew system. It puts out 2800 watts and is double walled to provide some insulation. I am currently running a 2" pot still and can get 4-5 l/hr in stripping runs on 8% wash. Do you think this will work well with a 3" CCVM or do I need more power?

[needmorstuff]

I am looking to make a CSST condensor to fit a 3" spool. Does anyone know what length of DN20 CSST = coiled condensor length?

i.e. 1m of DN20 CSST will make a condensor coil of 30cm?

Will DN20 coiled even fit in 3" spool? the OD is 27mm

I am asking as I want to buy an already terminated length of CSST for a specific purpose

[RC Al]

27 + 27 + 27 = 81 so no

Look for something more like 19/20 od

If you use a od of 70mm for the coil and leave a10mm spacing between coils, you would end up at 10 loops of 60mm (centreline of the winding) for a 30cm height, plus the return leg, plus extra for getting the lines out of the still, so your 1 meter is probably close

[needmorstuff]

ok thanks, I actually want to make an 80cm coil.. so will go for 4m to be safe.

[DAD300]

Thanks DAD and all of the contributers to this thread. There were some questions early on in the thread about power requirements that I didn't see a good answer to. I have a 10 gal electric boiler that is part of an all in one brew system. It puts out 2800 watts and is double walled to provide some insulation. I am currently running a 2" pot still and can get 4-5 l/hr in stripping runs on 8% wash. Do you think this will work well with a 3" CCVM or do I need more power?

2800watts in 10 gallons is plenty.

[Demy]

This design is really cool. DAD, is it possible to apply this technique on a 1.5 inch column? I only have small kettles (10 to 30 liters max) and I would be willing to upgrade to a 3 "column but I fear that for small quantities 3" is not manageable. Any advice is welcome!

[Tummydoc]

It is possible, but I think your gonna run painfully slow and not sure what separation you'll get, but its an easy build to try. 2 inch would be better on a 30 liter and is easily doable. If you've got 1.5 inch pipe already then try. 1/2 inch CSST tubing in a twisted configuration will fit with a little extra room, so twist around a stretched out copper scrubber. Kimbodius posted a photo of his in the "little ccvm" build thread started by longhairedcountryboy in 2019, but doesnt look like he completed the build. Finish yours and add to the knowledge base here!

The most common guideline is that length=diameter x20, so you'd want a 30 inch column at least, taller would be better.

[kimbodious]

1/2 inch CSST tubing in a twisted configuration will fit with a little extra room, so twist around a stretched out copper scrubber. Kimbodius posted a photo of his

7830D38B-DD6F-4C5D-802A-3643EE69A78D.jpeg

It is not pretty but it was the only way I could make it fit. The yellow zip ties show position, at the top of the column, for total reflux and 1:1 reflux

[Demy]

It is possible, but I think your gonna run painfully slow and not sure what separation you'll get, but its an easy build to try. 2 inch would be better on a 30 liter and is easily doable. If you've got 1.5 inch pipe already then try. 1/2 inch CSST tubing in a twisted configuration will fit with a little extra room, so twist around a stretched out copper scrubber. Kimbodius posted a photo of his in the "little ccvm" build thread started by longhairedcountryboy in 2019, but doesnt look like he completed the build. Finish yours and add to the knowledge base here!

The most common guideline is that length=diameter x20, so you'd want a 30 inch column at least, taller would be better.

Thank you very much for your reply. I already have a (bad) 1.5 "column but a small 3/4" gate valve for this I would have thought of this configuration. A few questions: for a low wine charge of only 15 liters would a 3 "column work badly?

[Demy]

1/2 inch CSST tubing in a twisted configuration will fit with a little extra room, so twist around a stretched out copper scrubber. Kimbodius posted a photo of his

7830D38B-DD6F-4C5D-802A-3643EE69A78D.jpeg
It is not pretty but it was the only way I could make it fit. The yellow zip ties show position, at the top of the column, for total reflux and 1:1 reflux

Instead it is a beautiful creation, thank you very much for the intervention. Do you think a copper realization would work? I already have a condenser for my small column but it should be longer, also I see that everyone uses this corrugated tube, it is easier to bend and holds well along the walls but has other functional advantages?

[Tummydoc]

Much easier to form than thin copper tubing, and less expensive. From a functional standpoint not better than copper, just easier.

[Tummydoc]

I dont run a 3 inch column, but 15 litres sounds insufficient for a 3 inch column. Yould want that column 60 inches, so the column is going hold over 6 liters of vapor/fluid. You're going to leave a lot of alcohol in the column. The packing will take up a lot of that 6 liter volume, but even if half, your boiler charge is too small.

[Demy]

I dont run a 3 inch column, but 15 litres sounds insufficient for a 3 inch column. Yould want that column 60 inches, so the column is going hold over 6 liters of vapor/fluid. You're going to leave a lot of alcohol in the column. The packing will take up a lot of that 6 liter volume, but even if half, your boiler charge is too small.

Yes, I had such a doubt. I have read about the columns but on this point I have a doubt: initially the column will contain the alcohol as you say but subsequently, while we extract instead of the "good" alcohol the same space will not be occupied by tails / water? In my mind the (more volatile) alcohol will be pushed out and in its place other compounds will fill the column. I think what you say is right and universally recognized but where is my mistake in thinking? Thanks so much!

[Demy]

Much easier to form than thin copper tubing, and less expensive. From a functional standpoint not better than copper, just easier.

Thanks so much. think many years ago i saw this tube online and thought they would be perfect for a cooling coil (for home brew) but i had already done this in copper but never thought about reflux. Hope to find something locally.

[Sk8brew]

I am a bit confused by the operation guidence I read earlier in the thread to take off the foreshots off before putting the column in 100% reflux. Won't reflux furthur compress the foreshots ensuring that more will be removed in the first runnings?

[Expat]

I am a bit confused by the operation guidence I read earlier in the thread to take off the foreshots off before putting the column in 100% reflux. Won't reflux furthur compress the foreshots ensuring that more will be removed in the first runnings?

Starting with the column in 100% flux concentrates the fores for removal. Returning the column to 100% reflux after removing fores, allows it time to reestablish a nice stack of fractions.

If you're still getting fores, it means you stopped too soon. Draw them then off and restack before you resume.

[Thebigbrewbowski]

What length of CSST should I order for a 2" column for the RC? 1/2" x 48" should be good? Only have a 6" extension ontop of the T.

[Twisted Brick]

What length of CSST should I order for a 2" column for the RC? 1/2" x 48" should be good? Only have a 6" extension ontop of the T.

You can find the answer to this question multiple times in the first few pages of this thread. Give it a read.... and help yourself!