Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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BoomTown
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Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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OK, I’ve barely gotten back, but I’ve bumped into a regular mystery. I’ve got Two really pretty little copper water pots (16 liters each), and am using them as fermenter pots. TheY make just enough wash/mash to feed two cycles in my new little Alquitarra still. While I’m still trying figure out if fermenting in copper pots is a good idea or not, that’s not what this posting is about.

First three fermenting cycles, using 7 lbs of Brown (raw) sugar for 15 liters, following Birdwatchers recipe, they start out with an OG of 1.065, and work out in about a week to be .999. No Problem, right?

So, several years ago, I had what’s called Whipple surgery, and the end results included altering how my pancreas contributes enzymes to help my body break down carbohydrates into sugars. I now take Creon capsules with food, that consist of Lipase, Protease, and Amylase. This stuff works great for me, so after reading about Raw Sugar, it occurred to me that it’s possible that some of those sugar crystals may contain some long sugar molecules and/or carbohydrate that the yeast may not be totally consuming. So 4 cycles back, I started tossing a couple Creon capsules into each wash, to see what would happen.

So same wash, same reading OG going in, 1.065. 24 hours later: SG 1.073: 48 hours from casting yeast, SG is 1.082. And the yeasties are happy as clams, pooping out lots of CO2. TakeS 8 days at 72F degrees to reach SG of 1.000,Even then the yeasties still making tiny bubbles. But I’m impatient, and set up a run any way. Check the ABV of the Mash in the boiler: 20% ABV, without adding in tails and heads from earlier runs. Wash tastes like a dry wine.

The boiler holds 10 liters, and At end of the stripping run I have 2.4 Liters of low wine at 50% ABV.

Anyone know why it makes so much more Low wine than without the enzyme? Am I right to assume it’s breaking out compound sugars that the yeast don’t deal with unless the enzymes are in play? BTW, the hearts of the run (taken at 60% ABV in the run) are pretty easy to drink over ice tune next day.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by Hambone »

Magic? Yep....it was magic.

I’m surprised there would be that many unfermentables in raw sugar.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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Hambone wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:20 am Magic? Yep....it was magic.

I’m surprised there would be that many unfermentables in raw sugar.
So, just finished spirit run from these beer runs, 10 L of 45% low wine. Used Brown (raw) Sugar most of washes, so now I’m wondering what it is? Rum? Vodka?
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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"Rumka"?
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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Rumka? vodum? I dunno...what’s it taste like?
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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Hambone wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:32 am Rumka? vodum? I dunno...what’s it taste like?
It’s sweet, mouth floods, and nearly no burn....
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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It isn't Rum. Rum is made from Molasses.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by MartinCash »

Hey BoomTown, are you sure you accounted for the temperature increase as fermentation got going? Those numbers seem impossible to me.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

I have to wonder how you came up with 20% abv in the boiler. What was your measuring method? From your recipe I get about 1.75 Lbs/ Gal. Sucrose has 46 PPG from my reading. If pure sucrose, then the wash should be 1.080 with a potential abv of about 11%. You're not pure sucrose, I don't believe that there is enough "other stuff" to make up the 9% discrepancy. I suspect your wash abv measurement.

I don't doubt that the enzymes can breakup the longer chains giving you more fermentable sugars from the "raw sugar". This may have been exhibited by the increase in SG during the ferment (or not, depending the measurement technique, or something else).

A good test would be simultaneous washes with and without enzymes.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by MartinCash »

AFAIK even raw sugar is almost all sucrose in terms of carbohydrates.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by HDNB »

CO2 bubbles floating the hydrometer for a higher reading?
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by shadylane »

HDNB wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:57 pm CO2 bubbles floating the hydrometer for a higher reading?
I'm also guessing there's an error in the measurements.
Having the SG increase after the yeast has started isn't normal.
Every time I've seen that, it was due to something I unknowingly did wrong :lol:
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by MartinCash »

Another possibility: fermentation-induced CO2 mixing what was previously density-layered wash. It takes a fair bit of mixing to get sugar homogenously mixed into solution, as it really wants to sink down. Once fermentation starts, convection often brings up the sugar layer and mixes it.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by Hambone »

I agree that measuring technique had to account for the "increased" SG...

One intriguing thing about this: did the enzymes prevent or lessen the sugar bite? The op described no burn at all.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by kimbodious »

MartinCash wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:50 pm AFAIK even raw sugar is almost all sucrose in terms of carbohydrates.
Yup, if it is raw sugar straight from a sugar mill, it would be around 92% with the remainder being water, ash and some reducing sugars - it tastes amazing!

“Raw Sugar” from the refinery is about 97% sucrose with the rest being molasses.
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

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RedwoodHillBilly wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:18 pm I have to wonder how you came up with 20% abv in the boiler. What was your measuring method? From your recipe I get about 1.75 Lbs/ Gal. Sucrose has 46 PPG from my reading. If pure sucrose, then the wash should be 1.080 with a potential abv of about 11%. You're not pure sucrose, I don't believe that there is enough "other stuff" to make up the 9% discrepancy. I suspect your wash abv measurement.

I don't doubt that the enzymes can breakup the longer chains giving you more fermentable sugars from the "raw sugar". This may have been exhibited by the increase in SG during the ferment (or not, depending the measurement technique, or something else).

A good test would be simultaneous washes with and without enzymes.
I like that idea. Nothing to loose on this end, if going for only what shows on the hydometer as OG. I’m really thinking the only true measure is what come out the still. The bags of Raw Sugar are factory produced, pretty good bet their weight wont vary a significant amount, the jugs stay the same size, the only variable will be the Creon. Just put 2 more pots on with the creon, expect to yield similar results. Will hold back the Creon next cycle, though I expect that may extend the fermenting time ... thanks for sharing your observations all!
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by BoomTown »

shadylane wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:23 pm
HDNB wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:57 pm CO2 bubbles floating the hydrometer for a higher reading?
I'm also guessing there's an error in the measurements.
Having the SG increase after the yeast has started isn't normal.
Every time I've seen that, it was due to something I unknowingly did wrong :lol:
How would one error in the measurement? No temp variation, the marks is he marks, th only variable is time? Where could the error occur?
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by shadylane »

Maybe the Creon capsules are time release and have a sg above 1.000 :?:
That might cause the sg to rise over time
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Re: Enzymes used with Raw Sugar

Post by StillerBoy »

Upon researching the Creon capsules make up, the pancrelipase contains multiple enzyme classes.. namely lipases, proteases, and amylases..

Lipases enzyme.. its job is to break down fats.. there is no fats in sucrose / raw sugar
Proteases enzyme.. its job is to break down proteins or single amino acid.. there is none of those in sugar / raw sugar..
Amylases enzyme.. its job is to break down the bond in starches and complex carbohydrates.. there is none of those is sugar /raw sugar..

White sugar, brown or dark brown sugar, or raw sugar, are mainly a sucrose sugars with a very small percentage of molasses.. even if the sugars are inverted to become glucose and fructose.. there are still no fats, proteins, amino acid, or starches in them...

So far the research indicate that, the Creon capules are really doing nothing to supplement the yeast nutrient or assistance into making more alcohol.. so for my view, the sugar amount used would indicate the higher reading, plus / or the small amount of molasses are giving an incorrect reading of the SG, as molasses is known to do that..

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