No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by HomerD » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:26 pm

Has anyone figured the application rate for this yeast? I did some figuring from posted recipes, it looks like about 1 gram per 10 lbs. of grain. Am I in the ballpark or way off?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:11 pm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76531#p7588682
23g-36g/10lb by my calculations

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by HomerD » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:58 pm

Thank you! I knew my numbers didn’t sound right.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Sideways » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:01 pm

NZChris wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:11 pm
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76531#p7588682
23g-36g/10lb by my calculations

What would be an approximate volumetric equivalent?

Four tablespoons?
1/8 cup?

Thanks!

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:03 pm

1 tablespoon = 12g

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:33 pm

Well, I'd been resisting this, since I have my hands full with what I'm already doing, but I keep seeing the posts and finally ordered some from Ali Express... now for the wait. My last order from China only took 5 months!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Sideways » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:20 pm

NZChris wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:03 pm
1 tablespoon = 12g
Perfect! Thank you! :thumbup:

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:02 pm

Three strips worth of corn, rye and barley in the fermenter now, plus another small rice experiment, hopefully more flavoursome than the last.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Sazerac » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:01 pm

zapata wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:15 am
NZChris wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:27 pm
From the bag;
Yeast
Rhizopus
A-amylase
Gluco amylase
Phytase
Thanks. And yeah, not quite room temperature, but still, time and energy savings are huge. :clap:

The yeast and enzymes are straight forward. The Rhizopus is interesting, and a bit vague.
Anybody familiar with the genus? I don't think it's commonly used as a Koji (Aspergillus oryzae). As a complete speculation though could it serendipitously be another oryzae, Rhizopus oryzae? I bet theres a Chinese patent out there somewhere.

At the risk of compounding some fear mongering on top of my speculation, I did stumble across this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizopus_ ... hogenicity
Rhizopus oryzae commonly causes a disease known as mucormycosis characterized by growing hyphae within and surrounding blood vessels. The causal agents of mucormycosis is the ergot alkaloid agroclavine which is toxic to humans, sheep and cattle.[7] This infection usually occurs in immunocompromised individuals but is rare.[9][10] Common risk factors associated with primary cutaneous mucormycosis is ketoacidosis, neutropenia, acute lymphobloastic leukemia, lymphomas, systemic steroids, chemotherapy, and dialysis. Treatment includes amphotericin B, posaconazole, itraconazole, and fluconazole.[11] The majority of the cases of infection are rhinocerebral infections. At the same time, it has been found in literature that R. oryzae can produce antibiotic activity on some bacteria.[7]

In Indonesia, where white cakes are commonly consumed are made from coconut and fermented with R. oryzae, traditionally called "bongkerk" caused food poisoning. Symptoms included hypoglycemia, severe spasms, convulsions, and death.
Which is kind of a shit warning because it says both "commonly causes" and "but is rare".
And should be tempered by:
Rhizopus oryzae is considered GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) by the FDA and thus recognized as safe to use industrially
I've only just heard of this so I may be completely wrong. But it might be prudent to be a bit careful, particularly for anyone having risk factors. It's probably no more dangerous than stilling is, but I might consider simple precautions like not rinsing my eyes with the wash.

Also interesting because I'm an ester whore:
Dry mycelium of four R. oryzae strains proved effective for catalysing the synthesis of different flavor esters. For example, the pineapple flavour or butyl acetate esters was produced by the esterification reactions between acetic acid and butanol by R. oryzae.
Of course if it does that with butanol, it can probably do it with ethanol. But I wonder how it would like a dunder pit? Anybody want to feed their tails to their grain bed and see it turns into a fruit salad?

Fascinating stuff guys, thanks for getting on it and sharing. I wish instacart delivered from Aliexpress!
It is almost certainly R. Oryzae, since that has been used for centuries for traditional Chinese alcohol production, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%C5%AB

The stuff you have is basically a refined version of Xiaoqu with extra enzymes added, and would typically be intended for making rice wine to be drunk directly rather than distilled. I have also seen a version without the added enzymes and just yeast and the Rhizopus culture (which was for sale in small sachets at my local Chinese grocery, so anyone looking for something like this sooner than shipping from china arrives should probably take a quick look around).

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:43 am

Those yeast balls are fine for rice in the traditional form but the yeasts referred to in this thread take grain and cereal fermentation to a whole new level
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:46 am

My current ferment of maize, rye and barley smells like shit. I haven't had a hint of that in any of my small experiments. The water was taken up to 98.5C before dumping it onto the grain, so that should have killed most of any undesirable bacteria present in the grain.

The pH has been quite high, 6.5, and I have dropped it to around 5 with sulfuric acid, but maybe I should have adjusted it before pitching?? My first trials had pHs around 5 to 6, weren't adjusted, and didn't have this problem.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by dukethebeagle120 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:51 am

Sazerac wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:01 pm
zapata wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:15 am
NZChris wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:27 pm
From the bag;
Yeast
Rhizopus
A-amylase
Gluco amylase
Phytase
Thanks. And yeah, not quite room temperature, but still, time and energy savings are huge. :clap:

The yeast and enzymes are straight forward. The Rhizopus is interesting, and a bit vague.
Anybody familiar with the genus? I don't think it's commonly used as a Koji (Aspergillus oryzae). As a complete speculation though could it serendipitously be another oryzae, Rhizopus oryzae? I bet theres a Chinese patent out there somewhere.

At the risk of compounding some fear mongering on top of my speculation, I did stumble across this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizopus_ ... hogenicity
Rhizopus oryzae commonly causes a disease known as mucormycosis characterized by growing hyphae within and surrounding blood vessels. The causal agents of mucormycosis is the ergot alkaloid agroclavine which is toxic to humans, sheep and cattle.[7] This infection usually occurs in immunocompromised individuals but is rare.[9][10] Common risk factors associated with primary cutaneous mucormycosis is ketoacidosis, neutropenia, acute lymphobloastic leukemia, lymphomas, systemic steroids, chemotherapy, and dialysis. Treatment includes amphotericin B, posaconazole, itraconazole, and fluconazole.[11] The majority of the cases of infection are rhinocerebral infections. At the same time, it has been found in literature that R. oryzae can produce antibiotic activity on some bacteria.[7]

In Indonesia, where white cakes are commonly consumed are made from coconut and fermented with R. oryzae, traditionally called "bongkerk" caused food poisoning. Symptoms included hypoglycemia, severe spasms, convulsions, and death.
Which is kind of a shit warning because it says both "commonly causes" and "but is rare".
And should be tempered by:
Rhizopus oryzae is considered GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) by the FDA and thus recognized as safe to use industrially
I've only just heard of this so I may be completely wrong. But it might be prudent to be a bit careful, particularly for anyone having risk factors. It's probably no more dangerous than stilling is, but I might consider simple precautions like not rinsing my eyes with the wash.

Also interesting because I'm an ester whore:
Dry mycelium of four R. oryzae strains proved effective for catalysing the synthesis of different flavor esters. For example, the pineapple flavour or butyl acetate esters was produced by the esterification reactions between acetic acid and butanol by R. oryzae.
Of course if it does that with butanol, it can probably do it with ethanol. But I wonder how it would like a dunder pit? Anybody want to feed their tails to their grain bed and see it turns into a fruit salad?

Fascinating stuff guys, thanks for getting on it and sharing. I wish instacart delivered from Aliexpress!
It is almost certainly R. Oryzae, since that has been used for centuries for traditional Chinese alcohol production, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%C5%AB

The stuff you have is basically a refined version of Xiaoqu with extra enzymes added, and would typically be intended for making rice wine to be drunk directly rather than distilled. I have also seen a version without the added enzymes and just yeast and the Rhizopus culture (which was for sale in small sachets at my local Chinese grocery, so anyone looking for something like this sooner than shipping from china arrives should probably take a quick look around).
Very interesring read
Thnx saz
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by jonnys_spirit » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:13 am

I've got two bags of this koji/yeast supposedly arriving today. See how it goes...

On another note I recently ordered this book recommended by another forum member -
Koji Alchemy: Rediscovering the Magic of Mold-Based Fermentation


The various koji are pretty easy to culture for anyone that wants to dive a little deeper down this particular rabbit hole...

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:09 am

My current Bourbon grain bill still smells like shit on day 10. It's had quite a bit of lemon juice and H2SO4 added and the pH is around 4.8 according to my strips. Her Indoors visited my shed today and said it smelled like shit, so I guess my description of this wash smelling like shit isn't wrong. :oops:

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:40 am

Ive been too busy to do much with mine..... stripped the 28L of barley wash that i had in a fermenter as an experiment. The low wines smell alright.
The wash its self ended up as bitter as hell.....nothing like the dry / tart taste that Im used to on a finished wash.
To much other stuff going on atm to do anymore with this yeast for a while.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:54 am

I've been thinking about buying a bunch of rice to make something white to drink. I don't have enough time before I move next year to put something into a barrel.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:57 pm

Seems to be a good amount of comments/reviews on how things ferment out. But I've not really read to many comments on how things taste after the spirit runs.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:07 pm

My bourbon and whiskeys were deliciuos. Not a flavorful, or estery yeast as far as I could tell. Pretty neutral. The yeast takes a back seat to the grains.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Hambone » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:26 pm

Beerswimmer wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:07 pm
My bourbon and whiskeys were deliciuos. Not a flavorful, or estery yeast as far as I could tell. Pretty neutral. The yeast takes a back seat to the grains.
Pretty expensive for a neutral result? Or not?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:20 pm

Not at all, and not neutral in taste. In fact it saved money. No energy needed for mashing. Mashing is the worst part of using corn. That step is skipped. All you need heat for is the actual distilling. I have tried with pouring boiling water to pour on my grains to reduce bacterial infections, but my results were that it didn't really help much. A ferment in my garage will get an infection after a week no matter what. I don't have sealed fermenters, it just happens anyway. Boiling or not.

The taste is the grains, so far. In October my first barrel should be ready to dump, but samples from the 6 month mark show it to be great. The yeast doesn't add any floral notes, but the grains really show. It's not like making a whiskey with a flavorful yeast, it's more like a yeast that shows off your ingredients minus the yeast. The use of adjunct grains is expressed really well.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Chauncey » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:31 pm

Man mine is supposed to be here after months from china. Juat made it to the white plains ny USPS facility so at least its in the country. Hadnt had an update in like 50 days untill i emailed the amazon seller. Im excited. Just gonna get 50lb sacks of corn meal from rest depot or cracked corn from feed store and try mostly using this for my big fermenters.

Ill do some smaller batches of different grain whiskeys with higher esters via doping, pitch rate, temp stress or other modifications and blend those in maybe for flavors in my aging stock... but honestly this sounds great for striaght corn whiskey cuz you really rely on good corn/grain flavor for your white drinking cut imho. Behind that, smoothness. So if it makes a smooth heavy corn im so about it.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:51 pm

Whatever VOC it is that is making my bourbon grain bill smell like shit isn't being converted, by the acids I'm adding, into an ester that doesn't smell like shit. :oops:

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Chauncey » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:27 pm

Do you have a butryic infection? Forgive my ignornace but VOC?

Im drunk i have to go back and read your posts here.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:47 pm

It's not butyric and I have read about it fairly recently, but didn't take much notice and can't be bothered researching it right now. If it doesn't come right by itself, I'll put some effort into going back and finding what I read about it.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Chauncey » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:55 pm

No worries. Maybe the ph adjustment did it, im gonna do a single 50lb of corn run in a 32 gal fermenter and see how it works. I got a couple.gen old uj in my other 3x 32 gal brutes so i suppose ima start slow or small. Def all kinds of funky infection in my ujssm its in a shed in 95f degree temps everyday and the pellice is nice and lactobacillusilylyly
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Chauncey » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:55 pm

I really only mess with ph in AG anyway but maybe the angel corrects itself in some way
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:28 am

pH might have been the problem as the first time I checked it it was quite high and the wash would have been a great environment for bacteria. I'll be paying more attention to pH next time I try this.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Chauncey » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:30 am

How much does maize run ya there? Feed store corn is like 24kg for 9usd here but it aint the best.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:42 am

Ha ha. That''s funny. I just searched my grain files for a '$' and got no results. I guess I don't care much about about costs :D

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:41 am

Chauncey wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:30 am
How much does maize run ya there? Feed store corn is like 24kg for 9usd here but it aint the best.
I get a 30kg sack for around $28.00
You can lead a horse to drink, but you cant make it water!
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