Ph levels keep rising in wash

[Alkyholik]

I've done a few successful washes now but 1 thing I keep getting is rising ph levels.
I've bought ph strips to keep an eye on them.can anyone give me advice on how to keep levels down low enough or what they add to it to drop the ph?
I have added a lemon like recipe suggested but level still seems to rise to over 6 etc.
Ps: what's the best ph level? 4.5?

[NZChris]

What are you making?

Have you been putting some form of calcium carbonate in the wash?

What is the pH of your water?

[still_stirrin]

How is your pH rising?

Fermentation produces acids and that causes the pH values to decrease, not increase. A good value would be a pH between 4.0 and 5.0, so yes...a 4.5 pH is a good measurement. Again, as fermentation progresses, especially with a sugar wash, the pH will decrease.

Is someone adding a base, like a caustic soda while you’re not looking?

What you’re claiming does not align with the process mechanisms.
ss

[Alkyholik]

Sorry,when I said they're increasing they must actually be decreasing as I used the litmus strips until I can get a meter and they're changing to a dark colour. I'm colour blind lol so I cant distinguish between the darker colours so stupidly presumed it was high(wrongly).
So,presuming the levels are dropping what can I do to raise them.what can be added.
And how do you guys manage your ph levels

[Expat]

Sorry,when I said they're increasing they must actually be decreasing as I used the litmus strips until I can get a meter and they're changing to a dark colour. I'm colour blind lol so I cant distinguish between the darker colours so stupidly presumed it was high(wrongly).

Yeah being color blind will limit the usefulness of litmus strips. Suggest getting a digital PH meter to give you what you need.

So the wash is acidifying, as sugar washes normally do. Options are to include calcium carbonate (e.g. oyster shells or similar) at the beginning of the fermentation, or to neutralize with a more reactive form like sodium bicarbonate, potassium bicarbonate or more reactive alkali compounds.

[Alkyholik]

I just bought sodium bicarbonate and added a half tsp and a little yeast and its back to bubbling away. Ph meter is ordered

[still_stirrin]

I just bought sodium bicarbonate and added a half tsp and a little yeast and its back to bubbling away. Ph meter is ordered

Won’t do much good to raise the pH. “Baking soda” (sodium bicarbonate) is a very weak base, so you’ll need A LOT of it...putting more sodium into the wash than needed or desired. In fact, it can “kill” the yeast.

Use a hydroxide, like sodium hydroxide (caustic soda or lye) or calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) instead. Pickling lime should be available in the grocery store where the canning supplies are located. You’ll only need a teaspoon per 5 gallons to raise the pH significantly.
ss

[MartinCash]

Is your wash actually stalling?

TBH I would not be worrying about pH unless I was recycling a significant amount of backset/dunder or the wash recipe was known to be prone to stalling.

[Demy]

Perhaps a trivial question but why increase the pH? As long as you don't have fermentation problems, I don't see any reason. A drop in pH as mentioned by others is normal.

[Yummyrum]

Agree demy

[StillerBoy]

but why increase the pH? As long as you don't have fermentation problems, I don't see any reason. A drop in pH as mentioned by others is normal.

A Ph drop is a normal reaction in a sugar wash, yes that is correct.. but that said, it does not imply that an acidic drop it is a good thing either..

A healthy fermentation environment for any yeast, the Ph should be consider for the best Ph level that the yeast prefer to work at, not one that is determine by not being mindful of the yeast's needs.. they prefer an acidic level of 4 - 4.5 range.. will they work outside that range - sure, but it wouldn't be in a healthy environment for them..

That's the reason why the Ph is important, much the same as stable fermenting temp.. plus a few other requirements..

Mars

[Alkyholik]

Martincash yeah every wash seems to stall nearly at about the 1.020 level for some reason and its confounding the hell outta me. I end up adding more dap and yeast to get it going again.
Can I ask,for a 23ltr wash how much dap would you guys add? I throw in a few vitamin B complex tablets as 2well.
So I can't understand what is making it stall at times.temps are good also.
Can I ask also, I have a bag of crushed malted barley here,can any of this be added as an enzyme instead of the dap? And if so,how much?

[NZChris]

I have to get my wife to read my pH strips. I'm not totally color blind, just enough that I can't read a pH strip.

I use whole shells. That way, as they lose volume, the surface area doesn't change much.

I pulled a bag of of shells out of a ferment yesterday because the ferment was slow and the pH was rising, a very rare occurrence in my shed. The shells were weighed and their weight loss recorded.

[Alkyholik]

Chris Ive just bought some crushed oyster shells online so will see how I get on with it.
I will give making a yeast starter/bomb another go for next wash I reckon. I have to say I find it a bit weird that folk say do not stress the yeast, then the same folk boil their water n add yeast to it etc. I'll try it again though

[Demy]

but why increase the pH? As long as you don't have fermentation problems, I don't see any reason. A drop in pH as mentioned by others is normal.

A Ph drop is a normal reaction in a sugar wash, yes that is correct.. but that said, it does not imply that an acidic drop it is a good thing either..

A healthy fermentation environment for any yeast, the Ph should be consider for the best Ph level that the yeast prefer to work at, not one that is determine by not being mindful of the yeast's needs.. they prefer an acidic level of 4 - 4.5 range.. will they work outside that range - sure, but it wouldn't be in a healthy environment for them..

That's the reason why the Ph is important, much the same as stable fermenting temp.. plus a few other requirements..

Mars

Yes, this is true and known, but it seems to me that Alkyholik is chasing the pH during fermentation trying to correct it as it goes down. Starting from a correct ph, I never adjusted the ph during fermentation, obtaining complete fermentation. I usually point around 5 PH (4.5 - 5) after which I let it go on its own with no subsequent adjustments. It may be that I have misinterpreted the question ..

[MartinCash]

Another thing worth trying is using a recipe that contains some grains, as they help a lot with buffering.

Do you have a reflux still, or just a pot still? If you're trying to pot-still something as neutral as possible, the sugar washes are good, but if you don't mind a mild grain character from pot-stilled vodka, I can recommend either Teds Fast-Fermenting Vodka, Deathwish Wheat Germ and Rad's All Bran wash. I have incredibly soft water with no buffering capacity (rain water) and none of those recipes ever stall from pH for me. They will all produce fairly clean ferments if you follow the recipe. Great for refluxed neutral, and very pleasant for pot-still vodka, even if not entirely neutral.

[NZChris]

Chris Ive just bought some crushed oyster shells online so will see how I get on with it.
I will give making a yeast starter/bomb another go for next wash I reckon. I have to say I find it a bit weird that folk say do not stress the yeast, then the same folk boil their water n add yeast to it etc. I'll try it again though

There is nothing weird about that. They are boiling yeast to extract nutrients for the live yeast that will be pitched later.

My yeast bombs are designed to get my yeast activated before pitching. It takes 20-25 minutes and if it is not wanting to climb out of the bowl by that time, I know I have a problem with that yeast and need to get a better yeast or be nice to it until it's numbers build up.

[NZChris]

I don't use crushed oyster shells even though they are cheap to buy here. I use whole, large, shells collected from my local beach because they are less likely to cause problems if I over-estimate how much to use and don't keep a constant watch on the ferment.

[Alkyholik]

Another thing worth trying is using a recipe that contains some grains, as they help a lot with buffering.

Do you have a reflux still, or just a pot still? If you're trying to pot-still something as neutral as possible, the sugar washes are good, but if you don't mind a mild grain character from pot-stilled vodka, I can recommend either Teds Fast-Fermenting Vodka, Deathwish Wheat Germ and Rad's All Bran wash. I have incredibly soft water with no buffering capacity (rain water) and none of those recipes ever stall from pH for me. They will all produce fairly clean ferments if you follow the recipe. Great for refluxed neutral, and very pleasant for pot-still vodka, even if not entirely neutral.

I have 25kg of malted barley here I'm dying use. Any recipe for this? Or is it mainly used for enzmes/nutrients

[still_stirrin]

Alkyholik,

With a 25kg bag of malted barley, you could add a couple of 25 kg bags of corn and make a great bourbon. But you’ll have to learn how to mash the grains. So you better start reading right away. I know....it’s much easier to ask us and have us do your homework, but it is really time you outgrow the “spoonfeeding”. There are many recipes in the Tried & True recipe forum that use malted barley. Have a look.

And in the meantime, find a good homebrew beer site on the web and read up on the brewing processes. You need to learn those skills if you really want to hone your distilling skills.
ss

[Alkyholik]

Alkyholik,

With a 25kg bag of malted barley, you could add a couple of 25 kg bags of corn and make a great bourbon. But you’ll have to learn how to mash the grains. So you better start reading right away. I know....it’s much easier to ask us and have us do your homework, but it is really time you outgrow the “spoonfeeding”. There are many recipes in the Tried & True recipe forum that use malted barley. Have a look.

And in the meantime, find a good homebrew beer site on the web and read up on the brewing processes. You need to learn those skills if you really want to hone your distilling skills.
ss

I'll start reading tonight. Thanks bud

[bluefish_dist]

IMHO ph is one of the most important things to get a good clean fermentation. When I went to big ferments with city water I had a lot of issues with ph crashing. Sugar washes are the worst, all grains have the least issues. If we learn from beer brewers, fermentation is all about the water. I found adjusting the ph to around 5.2 at pitch helps the wash/wort finish.
With that said, my process was to add buffer before yeast pitch. Equal parts calcium carbonate and citric acid By volume. Amount varied per recipe, but I adjusted until I would have ph drop from 5.2 ish at pitch to 4.3-4.0 in 24 hrs. Too little buffer and it would be too low, too much and it would not drop fast enough. Then after that I would adjust to keep above 4.0 with Calcium carbonate. Just add it slowly to prevent the mentos effect.