Condenser-to-Dephlegmator

[skeet_skeety]

When recirculating for hours at a time, dephlegmator and condenser water temperature can be a hassle.

I’m running all copper 20 gal stampede 4 Ft packed column, 6” 14 pipe dephlegmator, dual thumpers, and condenser.

To my understanding it generally takes a 40 degree temperature differential to create condensation (not a weatherman nor a chemist).

I’m looking to find the minimum water temperature needed to enter the condenser that will have an exit temp hot enough to cool the Dephlegmator (not freeze the damn thing).

I guesstimate that ethanol vapor at 173 F should condense to a liquid around 133 F.

The top of the condenser coil is the hottest point and that is the water exits the condenser.

The water is heated from 75 F (initially) to about 120 F and rising.

There are conflicting suggested dephlegmator water temperatures out there:

*170 - 180 F and *120 - 160 F

[emoji362] Maintaining the water temp at 120 should get me where I need to be right?

If anyone here could shed some light on this I would love to hear the feedback.

Thanks!

[Saltbush Bill]

stampede 4 Ft packed column, 6” 14 pipe dephlegmator, dual thumpers, and condenser.

OK ...Im confused ....your running a packed column with a dephlegmator and duel thumpers, can I please see a photo of this so that I may understand better.
Who / what is Stampede ? the maker of the still? or the boiler ..or both?

[Fivey]

You are going to be fighting the specific heat capacity of water, and the simple physics that if you are putting a whole bunch of heat energy into water, you are going to need to expend at least the same amount of energy getting the heat OUT of the water. Because you are talking about your coolant temperature rising, that means you are using a reservoir? What is its capacity?

You options really are:
1) Keep using the reservoir and if you want to constrain the temperature rise, periodically add some ice to the reservoir (note: it takes quite a bit of energy to make ice)
2) Keep using a reservoir but increase the volume (adding more barrels, etc) to slow the temperature rise (because the energy is distributed across a large quantity of water)
3) Don't use a reservoir, and just run water from your water supply through the system (yes it is a bit wasteful of water, you could pump the exhaust water onto your garden...)

[cayars]

4) Keep using a reservoir but remove replace 1/3 to 1/2 the water when it gets hot with cold tap water. You can optionally use a cheap BBQ style digital temp probe with a alarm preset. So when your water hits a set temp an alarm goes off and you know to change some of it out.

[Bushman]

I have some of the same questions as Saltbush Bill. On another note not related to the heating and cooling that you should be aware of is your packing. I have done a lot of research on this subject and currently run a 4” column with packing that really works well. Commercial set up with larger diameter column go with a flute design because of the weight of the condensation. I pull my packing out every year to clean it and make sure it hasn’t compressed too much. With your 6” column it is something to keep your eye on.

[skeet_skeety]

Here's the rig.

[skeet_skeety]

4) Keep using a reservoir but remove replace 1/3 to 1/2 the water when it gets hot with cold tap water. You can optionally use a cheap BBQ style digital temp probe with a alarm preset. So when your water hits a set temp an alarm goes off and you know to change some of it out.

See, I like the way you think. Simple! My thing is this, I believe you can get away with much hotter water in the condencer than folks think. Whats the hottest your chiller water has been? I bet at the hottest it still made likker.

[skeet_skeety]

stampede 4 Ft packed column, 6” 14 pipe dephlegmator, dual thumpers, and condenser.

OK ...Im confused ....your running a packed column with a dephlegmator and duel thumpers, can I please see a photo of this so that I may understand better.
Who / what is Stampede ? the maker of the still? or the boiler ..or both?

Here's the rig.

Stampede is the still builder: https://stampedestills.com The pot, column, shotgun, and both thumpers were made custom. Thumpers also have sightglass in each.

[skeet_skeety]

You are going to be fighting the specific heat capacity of water, and the simple physics that if you are putting a whole bunch of heat energy into water, you are going to need to expend at least the same amount of energy getting the heat OUT of the water. Because you are talking about your coolant temperature rising, that means you are using a reservoir? What is its capacity?

You options really are:
1) Keep using the reservoir and if you want to constrain the temperature rise, periodically add some ice to the reservoir (note: it takes quite a bit of energy to make ice)
2) Keep using a reservoir but increase the volume (adding more barrels, etc) to slow the temperature rise (because the energy is distributed across a large quantity of water)
3) Don't use a reservoir, and just run water from your water supply through the system (yes it is a bit wasteful of water, you could pump the exhaust water onto your garden...)

I have a 25 gal reservoir and a closed 4 gallon worm condenser with water in/out with hose fittings/drain.
Option 1 - This works great. I know I can add tap water to get it down. However, I'm pretty sure I should keep some ice handy. The heat gain happens to qucik in my option. The store has 20LB bags for like $1.00. The thing is, I'm thinking I can run the condencer pretty hot compared to what I've been and still make a great run.
Option 2 - The 25 gal seems to do the trick but, I could us a 55gal barrel to get me there. I can fix two hose connections for the recalculation and add a valve for letting water go when adding cold.
Option 3 - I wish man. Two things that suck about that is 1) The water bill. 2) The river down the street.

[Fivey]

I have a 25 gal reservoir and a closed 4 gallon worm condenser with water in/out with hose fittings/drain.

Yeah 25 gal isn't huge. I have over 200L (50+ US gal) and I often wish it were more/ think about getting another 200L reservoir.

Cayars option 4 suggestion is essentially a compromise between options 1 and 3 - not waste all the water, but replace some of the water with something warmer than ice. It is a good compromise; you need to add a bit more cold water than you would ice, and you still need to get rid of a fair amount of water though.

[Saltbush Bill]

I guesstimate that ethanol vapor at 173 F should condense to a liquid around 133 F.

The top of the condenser coil is the hottest point and that is the water exits the condenser.

The water is heated from 75 F (initially) to about 120 F and rising.

There are conflicting suggested dephlegmator water temperatures out there:

*170 - 180 F and *120 - 160 F

[emoji362] Maintaining the water temp at 120 should get me where I need to be right?

Wow how do you keep track of all of those temperatures, Dont think Ive ever seen a still with quite that many thermometers on it before.
Your still is unlike anything Ive ever really seen before, I'm still trying to get my head around how and why.
Im guessing it must be a bit of a nightmare to run, trying to balance reflux in a packed column using a dephleg while trying to keep two thumpers happy cant be easy.
How do you regulate water flow to the dephlegmator ?? has it got a needle valve or just some sort of normal tap?

[cayars]

4) Keep using a reservoir but remove replace 1/3 to 1/2 the water when it gets hot with cold tap water. You can optionally use a cheap BBQ style digital temp probe with a alarm preset. So when your water hits a set temp an alarm goes off and you know to change some of it out.

See, I like the way you think. Simple! My thing is this, I believe you can get away with much hotter water in the condenser than folks think. Whats the hottest your chiller water has been? I bet at the hottest it still made likker.

When running Pot still mode.
I honestly don't know because once it hits a certain point in the run I start changing out some of the water. I do this by rough guessing the temp based on how hot it is to my hand. My water is hot enough that it's uncomfortable to keep your hand in it so it's got to be 140F+ I'll have to measure it so I know. I won't be distilling anything for at least a couple more weeks as my time right now is used up traveling. Dad fell on Christmas day and broke his hip in a different state, had to get a hip replacement at 85.

I can tell you this. When I'm draining off some of the water, I just take the water exit line coming from the condenser and move it from my reservoir to a bucket. This way I'm draining off the hottest water in the system at that point in time. I can then be filling the reservoir while it's draining.

My reservoir is big enough to handle slow spirit runs but not big enough to hand fast strip runs especially if done back to back. In the winter I'll move a couple of buckets outside my basement door and allow them to cool from the frigid temps and reuse those again. Sometimes I'll even start with my reservoir "emptied" into buckets set outside to get close to ice water temps before starting the run which helps a lot. That's an easy way to start out with water that's 20 to 30 degrees cooler than "room temp" without using ice.

[skeet_skeety]

I guesstimate that ethanol vapor at 173 F should condense to a liquid around 133 F.

The top of the condenser coil is the hottest point and that is the water exits the condenser.

The water is heated from 75 F (initially) to about 120 F and rising.

There are conflicting suggested dephlegmator water temperatures out there:

*170 - 180 F and *120 - 160 F

[emoji362] Maintaining the water temp at 120 should get me where I need to be right?

Wow how do you keep track of all of those temperatures, Dont think Ive ever seen a still with quite that many thermometers on it before.
Your still is unlike anything Ive ever really seen before, I'm still trying to get my head around how and why.
Im guessing it must be a bit of a nightmare to run, trying to balance reflux in a packed column using a dephleg while trying to keep two thumpers happy cant be easy.
How do you regulate water flow to the dephlegmator ?? has it got a needle valve or just some sort of normal tap?

It’s actually a Cadillac to run. It does take a bit of energy and it’s a little nerve racking but she’s set up for electric. waiting to purchase an element. I like flame better myself.

The temps are good reference points. Makes peat malt taste great.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChemMan]

Skeet-Skeety,

Energy input should be steady and stable. So I think easiest way to control your water temps (I"m assuming your pumping water already to condenser), woudl be to add a small "bleed" tee somewhere in the return our "pressure" side of the water loop. If you simple bleed and add a little at the same time, once thing line out, it's pretty simple to regulate roughly "stable" water temps with a 5 gal amount of "heat sink". This is way better than dumping 1/2 and adding cold water. The thought is is your circulating say 2-3 gals/min, you would only bleed out like 1/2 gal to 1 gal/min of "hot" side water ideally down the drain....and simple replace this water with cold garden hose water....

If this possible with your set up it's simpler than other changes. Also you push the cold tap water through the condenser only and then flow this water into your "bucket" reservoir was it will be "pre-heated", and then this water goes to defrag/condenser on the column and simple circulates roudn and round warm up more.......with again a "Bleed" to drain as needed to control temps.

One thing I noted with the picture is the size (small) of the "Vapor" pipe out of the column...this seems pretty small to me and nearly maybe only 1/2"... I'm not sure how "Fast" your running for stripping runs, but that small will for sure create back pressure just in that line ...maybe as much as the water levels in the thumper. just a note.

Great looking set up!

[skeet_skeety]

Thanks! I really appreciate the advice and I agree with the methods you've proposed. Here's where I'm going with this:

*Water entering the condenser is around 70 - 80F
*Water exiting the condenser is around 90 - 100F
*Water enters the shotgun dephlegmator at 100F
*Water exits the dephlegmator at 110 - 120F
--------THIS IS WHERE THE MEAT IS----------------
*The water line exiting the dephlegmator leading back into the reservoir needs a heat exchanger to cool back down to 70 -80F.

I am thinking of using a separate brew pot with ice water and a wort chiller in the line or, using a small radiator and fan set up so I don't have to use ice.

Thoughts???

[OtisT]

Thanks! I really appreciate the advice and I agree with the methods you've proposed. Here's where I'm going with this:

*Water entering the condenser is around 70 - 80F
*Water exiting the condenser is around 90 - 100F
*Water enters the shotgun dephlegmator at 100F
*Water exits the dephlegmator at 110 - 120F
--------THIS IS WHERE THE MEAT IS----------------
*The water line exiting the dephlegmator leading back into the reservoir needs a heat exchanger to cool back down to 70 -80F.

I am thinking of using a separate brew pot with ice water and a wort chiller in the line or, using a small radiator and fan set up so I don't have to use ice.

Thoughts???

If you can rig the radiator with fan cooler I think you would be far better off in the long run. That will provide a more consistent cooling system for a steadier water temp, and it would take a lot less maintenance during a run. Otis

[cayars]

Thanks! I really appreciate the advice and I agree with the methods you've proposed. Here's where I'm going with this:

*Water entering the condenser is around 70 - 80F
*Water exiting the condenser is around 90 - 100F
*Water enters the shotgun dephlegmator at 100F
*Water exits the dephlegmator at 110 - 120F
--------THIS IS WHERE THE MEAT IS----------------
*The water line exiting the dephlegmator leading back into the reservoir needs a heat exchanger to cool back down to 70 -80F.

I am thinking of using a separate brew pot with ice water and a wort chiller in the line or, using a small radiator and fan set up so I don't have to use ice.

Thoughts???

So how do you keep your PC running at speed while changing the flow rate to the dephlegmator?
You are far better off keeping these are separate lines, each with their own adjustment (especially reflux).

[skeet_skeety]

I run with a feed line to use the deflegmagator. Right now, I can’t really use the reservoir and the deflegmagator at the same time.

Water just runs through, which works great. You can manage heat gain by adjusting vales in the source, condenser, and deflegmagator.

Separate lines only make more work really. In the end I’m looking for less.

Personally, I think the fan is great and the chiller second.

[StillerBoy]

Separate lines only make more work really. In the end I’m looking for less.

On a set up such as your, the produce condenser and the dephlegmator should be run on separate line for best efficiency

If your goal is looking for less work, then you need to redesign the setup..

Mars

[skeet_skeety]

Well, I have a solution of sorts. I'm planning on re-routing the water set up where a single line Y's off to the condenser input and the delf and both outlets will be Y'd back to the reservoir.

[skeet_skeety]

Separate lines only make more work really. In the end I’m looking for less.

On a set up such as your, the produce condenser and the dephlegmator should be run on separate line for best efficiency

If your goal is looking for less work, then you need to redesign the setup..

Mars

Stillerboy I think you’re right about the two lines. These system get more complicated the more you try to achieve (while also trying to keep costs low).

The need for separate lines is near the end of the run really. Water temps in the deflegmagator get a little high and it’s hard to keep adjustment just right.

Thanks for the info!

[ParrotHead]

Separate lines only make more work really. In the end I’m looking for less.

On a set up such as your, the produce condenser and the dephlegmator should be run on separate line for best efficiency

If your goal is looking for less work, then you need to redesign the setup..

Mars

Was just reading this thread and was wondering if anyone uses two separate cold water reservoirs, each one with their own pump, and run one separate line to the condenser and one to the dephlegmator, each with its own return to its water reservoir. That way when the dephlegmator gets hot towards the end you know that the condenser is cool. Is this too much work? Is it best to use one water tank, one pump, and use Y fittings and valves on the lines going to the condenser and Dephleg . . .

[Yummyrum]

There would be nothing wrong with doing it that way Parrothead .
In theory , it would make the rise in temp of the Deflag water tank less meaning less adjustments throughout the run as the tank heated .

But in practise , its not really worth the gain .

If we consider say a typical 4 plate still . It will have typically a reflux ratio of about 4:1 . So 80% of the heating of the tank is due to the Deflag while only 20% is do to condensing the Product .

If we look at a typical packed still used for Neutral production , it may be running a RR above 10:1 and up to 20:1 depending on how pure one wants .
So in this case , the percentage of tank heating due to the Product condenser is even less significant .....contributing say 4.5% -9%

Probably getting a bigger tank would have more gains than seperate tanks and pumps .

[ParrotHead]

There would be nothing wrong with doing it that way Parrothead .
In theory , it would make the rise in temp of the Deflag water tank less meaning less adjustments throughout the run as the tank heated .

But in practise , its not really worth the gain .

If we consider say a typical 4 plate still . It will have typically a reflux ratio of about 4:1 . So 80% of the heating of the tank is due to the Deflag while only 20% is do to condensing the Product .

If we look at a typical packed still used for Neutral production , it may be running a RR above 10:1 and up to 20:1 depending on how pure one wants .
So in this case , the percentage of tank heating due to the Product condenser is even less significant .....contributing say 4.5% -9%

Probably getting a bigger tank would have more gains than seperate tanks and pumps .

Thanks Yummyrum. That helps a lot. I have been researching flow patterns of flute setups and see that some of them have the product condenser bypass valve on the water outlet flow tube, while the dephlegmator valve is on the water intake portion. This makes sense to me as it would always keep the product condenser full of water. In this example below both valves are on the water intake and nothing on the water outlets. Question is does it matter where the valves go or does it work better to have the product condenser valve on the outlet flow tube? This picture below is not my set up, just a great example I found online.

[StillerBoy]

Question is does it matter where the valves go or does it work better to have the product condenser valve on the outlet flow tube?

It doesn't matter which side the valve is position.. what matter is that the water flow rate can be regulated, especially in a reflux column condenser..

What is important is to always load the condenser with a fast water flow prior to it being used.. that will discharge any air space within the condenser.. the problem arise when water flow is to slow at the start and then air space is allow to occur creating improper cooling.. a fast flush will remove all the air in the condenser..

Another point that I always recommend to people I've built units for is to have their water lines hanging higher than the top of their condenser.. this will help managing the water flow to the condenser creating some slight back pressure on the outlet side, and if one were to loose water flow, the condenser will not go dry..

Mars

[jake_jimmylegs]

It doesn't matter which side the valve is position.. what matter is that the water flow rate can be regulated, especially in a reflux column condenser..

What is important is to always load the condenser with a fast water flow prior to it being used.. that will discharge any air space within the condenser.. the problem arise when water flow is to slow at the start and then air space is allow to occur creating improper cooling.. a fast flush will remove all the air in the condenser..

Another point that I always recommend to people I've built units for is to have their water lines hanging higher than the top of their condenser.. this will help managing the water flow to the condenser creating some slight back pressure on the outlet side, and if one were to loose water flow, the condenser will not go dry..

Mars

I'm not sure I completely understand this, It seems like you are suggesting the cooling water for the product condenser or deflag is entering at the top of the condenser?? And keeping condenser tube full by raising the 'output' hose above the level of the top of the condenser's 'input' at the top??

[jake_jimmylegs]

Image5.jpg (13.44 KiB) Viewed 3219 times

Just curious if those using a fixed res for cooling water considered an evaporation tray to cool the water a bit before letting it spill back into the res. Have the output for the tray like an inch up the tray wall to let it get some dwell time...

[The Baker]

somewhere I saw this;
plastic downpipe, long, split.
fixed to the wall, one piece below the other, angled so water flows along one then falls to the next lower...

Cute, like a fountain, and cools the water...

I'ld love to do it but I think no space.

Maybe...

Geoff

[jake_jimmylegs]

~10 feet of rain gutter, fixed at a gradual slope would probably do the trick as well, assuming there is room for it. or if your garage gutters are clean, just pump the output into it and collect it off the down spout. LOL

[The Baker]

~10 feet of rain gutter, fixed at a gradual slope would probably do the trick as well, assuming there is room for it.

I think the falling, several times from one to the other, is cute; and would make a big difference to efficient cooling.

Geoff