Noxious odour

[Æther]

So I ran a keg of cider the other day and it was moments in to the fores I took a smell and reeled back. It was insanely noxious. The smell was nothing like fores, it was harsh, metallic and burning. Couldn’t get near it.

This is the first time this has ever occurred, so here are a few observations.

The still is a T500, I’ve recently swapped out the packing for copper mesh which has been used 3-4 times and cleaned in a citric acid solution after every use then rinsed. The column is also completely dismantled and cleaned every time.

I did notice a little black colouration on the copper this time, but on the whole it was clean and shiny.

The liquid that came off was blue and cloudy.

The cider contained sulphites (not sure if this could have reacted with the copper).

The whole batch was discarded immediately, I wasn’t taking chances with that. Now, I’ve read a few thoughts on the blue/cloudy distillate situation, but the smell, that was concerning. Any thoughts?

[Saltbush Bill]

Just wonder why you decided to swap the original saddles that came with the T500 for copper packing.
In my experience the saddles that come with a T500 work perfectly well.

[Irishgnome]

Could be copper sulphate coming through the still which is not good. You did a good think and got rid of the spirit. Not 100% sure on the smell. I would get brand new copper scrubbers and make sure they are 100% copper. I would do at least one cleaning run, cleaning and sacrificial run would be better. See what happens on the sac run.
I have never ran a t500, so I am not sure what kind of material could be in the still that could have an influence on your product.
Taking apart the still would probably be a good idea. You might find something that doesn’t look like its copper, or stainless steel.
Best of luck and be safe!
Cheers
Irish

[Æther]

Just wonder why you decided to swap the original saddles that came with the T500 for copper packing.
In my experience the saddles that come with a T500 work perfectly well.

Hi Bill
Do you not think the additional copper and surface area would result in a purer spirit?

[Æther]

Could be copper sulphate coming through the still which is not good. You did a good think and got rid of the spirit. Not 100% sure on the smell. I would get brand new copper scrubbers and make sure they are 100% copper. I would do at least one cleaning run, cleaning and sacrificial run would be better. See what happens on the sac run.
I have never ran a t500, so I am not sure what kind of material could be in the still that could have an influence on your product.
Taking apart the still would probably be a good idea. You might find something that doesn’t look like its copper, or stainless steel.
Best of luck and be safe!
Cheers
Irish

Cheers, Irish

Copper sulphate was my thoughts too, it's just identifying the root. Maybe the packing wasn't clean enough or the sulphites in the keg cider reacted. I've run cider before but it's been home brew and no sulphites. And yeah, the T500 column has gotta go asap! FYI, if nobody has taken that column apart before, there is silicon in the internals around the nuts that mount the leibig. That has been removed and the seal seems tight enough without it, but it's been one run since the silicon came loose and was removed so I guess we will see.

I'll do a vinegar run and sac and see how that goes.

[Irishgnome]

I would argue that you will get a better product with copper in the vapor path.
Are the saddlers that your rig includes made out of copper?

[Æther]

I would argue that you will get a better product with copper in the vapor path.
Are the saddlers that your rig includes made out of copper?

So originally it came with ceramic saddles for the bulk of the column with a small handful of copper saddles to be packed at the top. If it's just a case of the vapour needing to pass some copper material, and not necessarily down to how much copper it spends time with, then maybe the mesh is a waste of time. It's a PITA to pack the column with mesh, built the way it is, but as the ceramic is old and not holding up to cleaning any more, I thought I'd try some new material.

[Irishgnome]

Do you know if the silicon is platinum cured?

[Irishgnome]

I say more copper!
Packing will help increase proof, but the copper will also help with pulling Hydrogen sulfide out of your product. With copper saddlers, you kill two birds with one stone.

[Saltbush Bill]

The original mix of ceramic and copper saddles is more than up to the job......most folk here have never seen a t500 in the flesh let alone run one.

[Æther]

Couldn't say on the silicon, dude, it was a very small amount and I've done countless runs in the past. This is the first instance of clouding, blue tint and an odour I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. It was brutal.

Any thoughts on the SS spiral prismatic packing for surface area, perhaps with the copper saddles at the top? Or if you reckon all out copper, suggested saddles from UK supplier?

The mesh was from Distilling UK, and apparently high purity.

[Æther]

The original mix of ceramic and copper saddles is more than up to the job......most folk here have never seen a t500 in the flesh let alone run one.

Cheers, Bill. I still have the ceramic but they are cheap as chips anyway so can always get more. Never had issues with them in the past.

[Irishgnome]

Copper Spirals: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3297828 ... 5608%23132

[Æther]

Copper Spirals: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3297828 ... 5608%23132

Bangin

[Irishgnome]

The original mix of ceramic and copper saddles is more than up to the job......most folk here have never seen a t500 in the flesh let alone run one.

I looked at a T500 in a brew shop about two years ago when I was on vacation. If it was closer to home, I may have purchased it.
Never ran one, just seen videos.
I'd listen to bill on the operation, he knows what he's doing.
Cheers

[Æther]

Sound. Maybe I’ll run with ceramic until the new column is built then switch to copper saddles.

Cheers for the input guys.

[Saltbush Bill]

Maybe I’ll run with ceramic until the new column is built then switch to copper saddles.

If running the ceramic saddles you will still need the copper saddles at the top.

[NZChris]

That was probably better stripped and spirit run in a pot still with plenty of copper in the boiler and vapor path. If any blue comes out in the strip, the spirit run cleans it up.

[Æther]

That was probably better stripped and spirit run in a pot still with plenty of copper in the boiler and vapor path. If any blue comes out in the strip, the spirit run cleans it up.

No pot yet! But after smelling the first few drops I ceased immediately and flushed the boiler. No way I was continuing that run.

[Æther]

Maybe I’ll run with ceramic until the new column is built then switch to copper saddles.

If running the ceramic saddles you will still need the copper saddles at the top.

Yup, sorry I wasn’t clear there. Always used copper and ceramic, just meant switch to copper entirely with new column.

[NZChris]

That was probably better stripped and spirit run in a pot still with plenty of copper in the boiler and vapor path. If any blue comes out in the strip, the spirit run cleans it up.

No pot yet! But after smelling the first few drops I ceased immediately and flushed the boiler. No way I was continuing that run.

I've only done that once and that was when I was quite new at the game. Nearly thirty years later I found out that it was very likely the worst distilling decision I'd ever made.

[jonnys_spirit]

You mentioned that the cider had sulphites added. How much?

Cheers,
-j

[MartinCash]

Was the distillate blue? If not, then definitely not copper sulfate.

I've had very strong acetaldehyde from cider. Not a pleasant smell.

[Æther]

You mentioned that the cider had sulphites added. How much?

Cheers,
-j

No way of knowing unfortunately, it was kegged and just listed on the ingredients.

[Æther]

Was the distillate blue? If not, then definitely not copper sulfate.

I've had very strong acetaldehyde from cider. Not a pleasant smell.

It has a slight blue tinge and was milky/cloudy. The odour wasn’t anything I’d associate with common odours from fores. Harsh, industrial and metallic are really the only descriptors I could give it, nothing remotely food related.

[amh71]

Was the cider homebrew?

It could have had potassium sorbate added as a stabiliser, I believe this becomes sorbic acid which may explain the smell, but not the blue.

I had something similar a few weeks ago, stripped a batch of homebrew wine that wasn't too good, the distillate stank, a strong acrid smell that made the back of the nose sting, like taking a deep breath from a vinegar bottle, I thought it must be the sulphites but the smell didn't seem sulphurous at all. I finally found the notebook from that year and I had also added potassium sorbate to that batch.

I left it loosely covered and finally got to the spirit run a couple of days ago, the low wines still had a faint smell which returned very strongly in the foreshots and slowly faded through the first 5 or 6 jars. Today the smell is gone from all but the foreshots.

Potassium sorbate is widely used in varying amounts in many foods and drinks so I expect the distillate is safe, going to do some reading before aging it though.

[Æther]

Was the cider homebrew?

It could have had potassium sorbate added as a stabiliser, I believe this becomes sorbic acid which may explain the smell, but not the blue.

I had something similar a few weeks ago, stripped a batch of homebrew wine that wasn't too good, the distillate stank, a strong acrid smell that made the back of the nose sting, like taking a deep breath from a vinegar bottle, I thought it must be the sulphites but the smell didn't seem sulphurous at all. I finally found the notebook from that year and I had also added potassium sorbate to that batch.

I left it loosely covered and finally got to the spirit run a couple of days ago, the low wines still had a faint smell which returned very strongly in the foreshots and slowly faded through the first 5 or 6 jars. Today the smell is gone from all but the foreshots.

Potassium sorbate is widely used in varying amounts in many foods and drinks so I expect the distillate is safe, going to do some reading before aging it though.

Na, it was kegged, branded cider, and contains sodium metabisulphate.

Did a vinegar and sac run today but it came thru pretty clean, first 50ml or so of sac run had the faintest blue tinge but other than that it was all good. Had some spare kegged beer and cider to get rid of but will stick to homebrew here on in so I know what I’m dealing with.