Grapa Help

[Neozilian]

Hi All

Its harvest time in South Africa and Ive managed to get some great quality chenin grape skins. Looking to make some top quality grapa. Any advice?

Harvest

[NZChris]

Decide what you want to make with it, then do whatever you have to do to make that.

[Demy]

It depends if you only distill the pomace or the whole fruit (wine with the pomace). To be precise you should call the "grappa" only the distillate produced by pomace. In any case, if you need to distill the wine + peel, you can get it as a normal distillation, if you want to distill only the pomace (as it should be done to call it grappa) you have some options: mix with water and proceed with distillation (not to the My first choice) or has an indirect heating system, my favorite is the steam where the steam passes through the skins and extract alcohol and aromas. Some time ago I had a small video, I created changes in the equipment but if you want to go a look. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 07&t=80633

[Neozilian]

Thanks Demy

Was a good read. Will start my build for steam extraction next.

Decided to add the must left over from the flocculation process to increase sugar levels and taste

Was thinking of adding pectic enzymes as well. Is it advisable?

[jonnys_spirit]

I've used the EX-V for increased extraction on grapes.. Might be worthwhile? Can turn the skins rather mushy too if you use too much.

https://scottlab.com/fermentation-cellar/enzymes/

If you have adequate quantity i'd stick with a traditional approach.

Cheers!
-jonny

[Demy]

Thanks Demy

Was a good read. Will start my build for steam extraction next.

Decided to add the must left over from the flocculation process to increase sugar levels and taste

Was thinking of adding pectic enzymes as well. Is it advisable?

Never used enzymes, it will work fine without it. I have distilled my grapes with various options, you will get a good product but vary the flavor based on what you distil. Make sure that whatever you distil has completed fermentation, if you distil liquid + skins make sure it is fluid enough otherwise you risk burns. If the alcohol content is very low, consider a double distillation.
P.S. I wrote the clarification on the term "grappa" not because I want to be an expert (I'm not) but because (at least here in Italy) there is a specification that regulates (in terms of law) the parameters to be called "grappa on the label ". We as home distillers have more room for maneuver but I must admit that the product distilled from pomace alone has a unique aromatic profile but is also more difficult to distill.

[Birrofilo]

It depends if you only distill the pomace or the whole fruit (wine with the pomace). To be precise you should call the "grappa" only the distillate produced by pomace.

This is not any more correct, to my knowledge, since a few years.
After many years of "lobbying", producer Nonino finally managed to allow the term Grappa to be applied also to the distillate of the whole fruit.

From a strictly commercial point of view, in the EU only the distilled product coming from Italy - and complying with the disciplinary of production - can be termed Grappa, basically Grappa is now a protected denomination of origin. That also means that in those countries that have treaties with the EU encompassing the Grappa mark, you might not find a spirit labelled Grappa if it is not distilled in Italy. Just like you do not find "Bourbon" sold in Italy which doesn't come from the US.

I am still confused regarding the Italian-speaking regions of Switzerland, which initially had obtained the right to mark "grappa" their products. That was from 2002 to 2008. For what I understand, since 2008 only the Italian produce can be termed grappa.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappa#Grappa_svizzera
Yet, I think some Italian-Swiss producers go on marketing their products as grappa.

That obviously doesn't apply to spirits which are not put into commerce.

[Demy]

It depends if you only distill the pomace or the whole fruit (wine with the pomace). To be precise you should call the "grappa" only the distillate produced by pomace.

This is not any more correct, to my knowledge, since a few years.
After many years of "lobbying", producer Nonino finally managed to allow the term Grappa to be applied also to the distillate of the whole fruit.

From a strictly commercial point of view, in the EU only the distilled product coming from Italy - and complying with the disciplinary of production - can be termed Grappa, basically Grappa is now a protected denomination of origin. That also means that in those countries that have treaties with the EU encompassing the Grappa mark, you might not find a spirit labelled Grappa if it is not distilled in Italy. Just like you do not find "Bourbon" sold in Italy which doesn't come from the US.

I am still confused regarding the Italian-speaking regions of Switzerland, which initially had obtained the right to mark "grappa" their products. That was from 2002 to 2008. For what I understand, since 2008 only the Italian produce can be termed grappa.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappa#Grappa_svizzera
Yet, I think some Italian-Swiss producers go on marketing their products as grappa.

That obviously doesn't apply to spirits which are not put into commerce.

Thanks for the post, do you have a reference to read where what you say is specified (for my personal culture)?

[Bushman]

I have never made grappa with grapes but have done the same process with apples. With just the pomace and not the juice as Demy describes you do loose some of the sweetness. Another subject to read and google here on the forum deals with how you handle the fermentation. Look up Punching the Cap.

[Demy]

I have never made grappa with grapes but have done the same process with apples. With just the pomace and not the juice as Demy describes you do loose some of the sweetness. Another subject to read and google here on the forum deals with how you handle the fermentation. Look up Punching the Cap.

Hi Bushmann, we talked about the denomination in legislative terms, it is obvious that at a hobby level you can do as you want. I distilled all three grape derivatives (marc only, marc + juice, wine only) and they give different products (all excellent). However, I find that the distillate made from marc alone is unique in terms of aromatic profile even if the distillation yield is very low.

[Bushman]

I have never made grappa with grapes but have done the same process with apples. With just the pomace and not the juice as Demy describes you do loose some of the sweetness. Another subject to read and google here on the forum deals with how you handle the fermentation. Look up Punching the Cap.

Hi Bushmann, we talked about the denomination in legislative terms, it is obvious that at a hobby level you can do as you want. I distilled all three grape derivatives (marc only, marc + juice, wine only) and they give different products (all excellent). However, I find that the distillate made from marc alone is unique in terms of aromatic profile even if the distillation yield is very low.

[JesseMarques]

I'm here just to give ideas on distillation setup if you don't have steam yet
You can pot still it, heating with direct fire, and to avoid burns inside your boiler you can put some straw in the bottom with the pomace over it. That's how my grandma saw her elders doing in the past
In Portugal there's a spirit called bagaceira wich is basically distilled grape pomace, you can see in this video how the still is assembled

[Birrofilo]

Thanks for the post, do you have a reference to read where what you say is specified (for my personal culture)?

My only personal reference is the product "Ue", by Nonino, which is made from the whole fruit. The product page gives a vague reference to the Ministerial authorization to call it Grappa.

Ops, I see that it is not called grappa. It is "Acquavite d'uva". So, i stand corrected. Grappa is only the acquavite di vinacce. This, though, doesn't explain the "Ministerial authorization". You don't need any specific authorization to distill fruit (besides being an authorized distiller).

https://www.grappanonino.it/ue-lacquavite-duva/

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquavite_d%27uva

[Demy]

Ops, I see that it is not called grappa. It is "Acquavite d'uva". So, i stand corrected. Grappa is only the acquavite di vinacce. This, though, doesn't explain the "Ministerial authorization". You don't need any specific authorization to distill fruit (besides being an authorized distiller).

https://www.grappanonino.it/ue-lacquavite-duva/

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquavite_d%27uva

So what I said is correct. I was almost sure but I could be wrong. P.S.nonino is a good grappa!

[CikCikCikPogodi]

Tip for everyone.
Go to vineyards, and ask to take all leftover from wine production. Wineries that don't make grappa especially those in France, Spain and America they just throw leftovers into dump.

[MacCubbin]

Tip for everyone.
Go to vineyards, and ask to take all leftover from wine production. Wineries that don't make grappa especially those in France, Spain and America they just throw leftovers into dump.

Yep! Get friendly with your local winery and you can probably get all the pomace you want if you're in the US.

I have a friend who is a winemaker. They just dump the pomace in the woods to compost. I get all I want.

Grappa isn't very popular here. My local beer, wine & liquor stores don't even carry it. No demand. I've never had grappa other than that which I made, so I haven't a clue about what it's supposed to taste like. The grappa I made is pretty rough stuff. The attraction for me is, it's easy! Just fill my little pot still about 3/4 full with grappa, add water, run. Free and easy. No mashing, no yeast, no waiting. It's ready to distill when I pick it up from the winery.

I keep everything from the first run down to 10%, then do a second distillation and make sure I toss the foreshots and then some. Even then, grappa can give me a headache.

10 gallons of pomace yields me about 2L of 80 proof spirits after a second distillation and proofing it down.

One warning: birds LOVE pomace, so don't spill it! I was sloppy charging my still on my backyard deck and didn't sweep-up after. The birds ate all of it, got drunk, roosted in the tree over my driveway, and crapped purple all over my car for days.

[Demy]

Tip for everyone.
Go to vineyards, and ask to take all leftover from wine production. Wineries that don't make grappa especially those in France, Spain and America they just throw leftovers into dump.

Yep! Get friendly with your local winery and you can probably get all the pomace you want if you're in the US.

I have a friend who is a winemaker. They just dump the pomace in the woods to compost. I get all I want.

Grappa isn't very popular here. My local beer, wine & liquor stores don't even carry it. No demand. I've never had grappa other than that which I made, so I haven't a clue about what it's supposed to taste like. The grappa I made is pretty rough stuff. The attraction for me is, it's easy! Just fill my little pot still about 3/4 full with grappa, add water, run. Free and easy. No mashing, no yeast, no waiting. It's ready to distill when I pick it up from the winery.

I keep everything from the first run down to 10%, then do a second distillation and make sure I toss the foreshots and then some. Even then, grappa can give me a headache.

10 gallons of pomace yields me about 2L of 80 proof spirits after a second distillation and proofing it down.

One warning: birds LOVE pomace, so don't spill it! I was sloppy charging my still on my backyard deck and didn't sweep-up after. The birds ate all of it, got drunk, roosted in the tree over my driveway, and crapped purple all over my car for days.

I don't know why the grappa has the reputation of "rough" is something I often read here but it is not so, it is simply different from dealing with other raw materials. If done well is an excellent product (many good distilleries here in Italy), I have to admit that I tasted the bad home grappa, but this depends on the skill of the distiller and the equipment. Your procedure is fine, the best solution for grappa is first steam run (a pierced basket filled with pomace crossed by steam), then a fairly slow spirit execution and with carefully made cuts, usually has many heads and surrender It's very low.

[Stonecutter]

Demy, are you familiar with Tsikoudia? I have a Greek friend who swears up and down it’s not the same thing as grappa. Is this merely a provincial difference in name or in spirit?

[The Baker]

MacCubbin wrote, 'I don't know why the grappa has the reputation of "rough" is something I often read here but it is not so, it is simply different from dealing with other raw materials.'

In some posts in old forums this was discussed.
It seems that the pomace was simply shovelled into a heap in some wineries
in the good old days; and left there until the vintage was ended.

Grappa made from that was rough.

Geoff

[Demy]

Demy, are you familiar with Tsikoudia? I have a Greek friend who swears up and down it’s not the same thing as grappa. Is this merely a provincial difference in name or in spirit?

I don't know that product, but what I can say is Grappa's definition: the distillate obtained exclusively from the pomace of fermented grapes. Behind this there is all the execution procedure that changes the product, each distiller creates a unique product. I tasted many commercial grappas, the great Italian brands are all excellent while others (always Italians, commercial) I don't like very much. The grappa is a particular product, if done well is beautiful, if you are wrong it is horrible. The raw material should be fresh (just finished fermenting) or adequately maintained but distilled as soon as possible. Distill for some years the pomaccia, I had to understand it well to get something special because it is different from other ferments, I obtained I get a good product (from what others say, not me) and this year I hope to get a great product.

[Stonecutter]

Demy, are you familiar with Tsikoudia? I have a Greek friend who swears up and down it’s not the same thing as grappa. Is this merely a provincial difference in name or in spirit?

I don't know that product, but what I can say is Grappa's definition: the distillate obtained exclusively from the pomace of fermented grapes. Behind this there is all the execution procedure that changes the product, each distiller creates a unique product. I tasted many commercial grappas, the great Italian brands are all excellent while others (always Italians, commercial) I don't like very much. The grappa is a particular product, if done well is beautiful, if you are wrong it is horrible. The raw material should be fresh (just finished fermenting) or adequately maintained but distilled as soon as possible. Distill for some years the pomaccia, I had to understand it well to get something special because it is different from other ferments, I obtained I get a good product (from what others say, not me) and this year I hope to get a great product.

Thank you sir!

[CikCikCikPogodi]

Demy, are you familiar with Tsikoudia? I have a Greek friend who swears up and down it’s not the same thing as grappa. Is this merely a provincial difference in name or in spirit?

It's called Loza here.

[subbrew]

I don't know why the grappa has the reputation of "rough" is something I often read here but it is not so,

Because it is not known in the US I think only cheap stuff has been tried. I have only had Grappa twice, once at a vineyard in Italy and once at an Italian friends in the US. In both cases it was jet fuel. Knowing what I know now I would say it was young and had a lot of heads in the bottle. Probably a lot of people who say it is rough have only a couple of data points like mine. Would love to try some "good" stuff.

[Demy]

I don't know why the grappa has the reputation of "rough" is something I often read here but it is not so,

Because it is not known in the US I think only cheap stuff has been tried. I have only had Grappa twice, once at a vineyard in Italy and once at an Italian friends in the US. In both cases it was jet fuel. Knowing what I know now I would say it was young and had a lot of heads in the bottle. Probably a lot of people who say it is rough have only a couple of data points like mine. Would love to try some "good" stuff.

I understand it, you're right. I myself tried horrible things distilled by people like hobbies, they have many heads is very true, I think because they make the cuts based on quantities taught by the elderly (example: remove half a glass) .... when I learned to distil decently the grappa are He immediately managed to understand that they committed a lot of errors .. This also depends on the fact that here in Italy it often distilled wine and then applied the same cuts on grappa but it is a completely different subject. It is distilled in a simple still and in my opinion this way it is very rough in fact I use the plates column or column with little reflux, very tight cuts. In fact, even the great distilleries of quality brands do not use Pot-Still but plates columns after creating low wines through steam pass through the pomaccia. I tried to imitate this and after a lot of practice I get a good product.

[CikCikCikPogodi]

I don't know why the grappa has the reputation of "rough" is something I often read here but it is not so,

Because it is not known in the US I think only cheap stuff has been tried. I have only had Grappa twice, once at a vineyard in Italy and once at an Italian friends in the US. In both cases it was jet fuel. Knowing what I know now I would say it was young and had a lot of heads in the bottle. Probably a lot of people who say it is rough have only a couple of data points like mine. Would love to try some "good" stuff.

Badel Loza, it's cheapest brandy in region, 1liter costs 5.50 euros from almost any manufacturer.