Show of Hands

[Butch27]

Given that we have butchered another thread on this topic(my apologies to the OP of that thread), I thought maybe I should just ask for a show of hands here. Given that many members here are on a limited budget (or maybe just plain tight ), many are looking for a deal or possibly inexpensive or free materials. It has been explained to me that glyphosate is completely benign and safer than table salt. This could mean an almost limitless supply of containers that could be used as fermenters. Before voting I will show a few excerpts from a Roundup pamphlet. The active ingredient in Roundup is glyphosate.

2021-02-23Roundup4.JPG (20.82 KiB) Viewed 1213 times

[tubbsy]

To balance the bureaucratic requirements in the pamphlet...

Sodium Chloride LD50 = 3g/kg (oral, rats)
Glyphosphate LD50 = 5g/kg (oral, rats)

Warthaug's assertion is pretty clear. Glyphosphate is less toxic than table salt.

[River Rat]

I haven't seen the other thread and not trying to debate the toxicity of glyphosate, but free containers can be found lots of places. Around here restaurants and grocery stores give away buckets that once held pickles, cake icing, sauerkraut, etc. I don't live in a big town either. We only have one grocery store. Places that do charge only want 1 or 2 dollars for them.

[Butch27]

I haven't seen the other thread and not trying to debate the toxicity of glyphosate, but free containers can be found lots of places. Around here restaurants and grocery stores give away buckets that once held pickles, cake icing, sauerkraut, etc. I don't live in a big town either. We only have one grocery store. Places that do charge only want 1 or 2 dollars for them.

All of those are better sources in my opinion. Here is the other thread for those that are interested. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 33&t=82481

[dunluce]

You seem to be supporting Warthaug's assertion that glyphosate is less toxic than table salt. If that is indeed the case then I would think you would have no problem using an empty glyphosate container for a fermenter.

If table salt was sold in a large plastic containers I would have no problem using that container for a fermenter but under no circumstances would I use a glyphosate container.

Pretty invalid argument that you have there. What's the container made out of? Is it a food safe container? There are probably a lot of inert products out there that are not packaged in food safe containers. I'm sure you could also package salt in many containers I wouldn't use.

And your thread here.....sorry, but taking a "poll" isn't good science either.

To balance the bureaucratic requirements in the pamphlet...

Sodium Chloride LD50 = 3g/kg (oral, rats)
Glyphosphate LD50 = 5g/kg (oral, rats)

Warthaug's assertion is pretty clear. Glyphosphate is less toxic than table salt.

Maybe you can explain the above as well? Or is it the fact that you "think" it is more harmful a better scientific fact than the LD50 ratings?

[Butch27]

You seem to be supporting Warthaug's assertion that glyphosate is less toxic than table salt. If that is indeed the case then I would think you would have no problem using an empty glyphosate container for a fermenter.

If table salt was sold in a large plastic containers I would have no problem using that container for a fermenter but under no circumstances would I use a glyphosate container.

Pretty invalid argument that you have there. What's the container made out of? Is it a food safe container? There are probably a lot of inert products out there that are not packaged in food safe containers. I'm sure you could also package salt in many containers I wouldn't use.

And your thread here.....sorry, but taking a "poll" isn't good science either.

I never said it was good science. I was curious how many would take that chance, given the warnings in the pamphlet. I see you declined to say yes and in my opinion that is pretty much a no by default.

Edit: It would seam someone else voted yes while I was posting.

To balance the bureaucratic requirements in the pamphlet...

Sodium Chloride LD50 = 3g/kg (oral, rats)
Glyphosphate LD50 = 5g/kg (oral, rats)

Warthaug's assertion is pretty clear. Glyphosphate is less toxic than table salt.

Maybe you can explain the above as well? Or is it the fact that you "think" it is more harmful a better scientific fact than the LD50 ratings?

I am not sure your question was directed at me. If it was, I did not make that statement so please ask the person who made it.

[dunluce]

I am not sure your question was directed at me. If it was, I did not make that statement so please ask the person who made it.

100% directed at you. What do you say about the LD50 levels? You didn't post that, so it doesn't exist?

[Butch27]

I am not sure your question was directed at me. If it was, I did not make that statement so please ask the person who made it.

100% directed at you. What do you say about the LD50 levels? You didn't post that, so it doesn't exist?

LD stands for "Lethal Dose". LD50 is the amount of a material, given all at once, which causes the death of 50% (one half) of a group of test animals. The LD50 is one way to measure the short-term poisoning potential (acute toxicity) of a material.

Toxicologists can use many kinds of animals but most often testing is done with rats and mice. It is usually expressed as the amount of chemical administered (e.g., milligrams) per 100 grams (for smaller animals) or per kilogram (for bigger test subjects) of the body weight of the test animal. The LD50 can be found for any route of entry or administration but dermal (applied to the skin) and oral (given by mouth) administration methods are the most common.

It only shows what a lethal dose is in the short term. It has absolutely nothing to do with the long term ramifications of ingestion or exposure to the substance.

[dunluce]

It only shows what a lethal dose is in the short term. It has absolutely nothing to do with the long term ramifications of ingestion or exposure to the substance.

Okay, so you're going to ignore the LD50 - fine.

What's your scientific studied and peer-reviewed evidence on the long-term toxicity of glyphosate?

[RC Al]

What's your scientific studied and peer-reviewed evidence on the long-term toxicity of glyphosate?

A quick google found bayer has had 10's of thousands of lawsuits in regard to roundup vs hodgkin's lymphoma, smoke = fire?
What's your scientific studied and peer-reviewed evidence on the long-term health benefits of glyphosate and it being totally harmless? Sorry Troll response, but its a pretty long stretch to say prove it, otherwise the stuff is perfectly fine.

Anyways, I had a similar run in with Trichlor drums (pool tablets) tried all sorts of stuff to kill the smell, end up giving up and just used them as dump buckets. Then I noticed the smell was gone after transporting dunder in them a couple of times. Ive since moved on fermenter size wise and just avoid unlabelled drums and give everything a clean with hot dunder n then some fore/heads. As with anything its only a cheap solution if it is the right solution too. Around here a s/h beer keg is generally cheaper than a new similar sized fermenter (what people really buy those? oh yeah beer ppl), but a used 120-200l drum runs around the same dollars ($40-60), down south of our country, 220l ex-olive barrels can be had for a mere $15-20 (2000k's is a bit far for a fermenter road trip lols)

TBH I dont think we have to worry too much about the chemicals affecting us (how much will make it past the boiler?), I would be more worried about them changing what the yeast produces, whats the body weight of a yeast cell? how many nanograms will give it cancer or make it grow 6 eyes? Whats the LD50 for them?

[dunluce]

A quick google found bayer has had 10's of thousands of lawsuits in regard to roundup vs hodgkin's lymphoma, smoke = fire?
What's your scientific studied and peer-reviewed evidence on the long-term health benefits of glyphosate and it being totally harmless? Sorry Troll response, but its a pretty long stretch to say prove it, otherwise the stuff is perfectly fine.

No, it's not a troll response. The OP brought up the idea that roundup was not safe; therefore, the onus is on him to prove that. The onus is not on everyone else to prove their own point. No one here has said that it was perfectly fine, the same as no one has said that salt is perfectly fine.

Tens of thousands of lawsuits do not make a case - look at the amount of people out there who still believe that vaccines cause autism, even though the author of the original study was found to have falsified the information.

[RC Al]

lols, sorry, I actually meant mine was a troll response...

[NormandieStill]

Personally I don't use repurposed containers for fermentation. I would do so for glass and stainless steel since they are known to be inert, but most plastics will absorb some proportion of their previous content and release it subsequently (a question of concentration gradients I believe). For the same reason I will use bleach solution to wash glass bottles for beer, but not the PP fermentation buckets that were used to ferment it. If I had the budget I would invest in 100% stainless fermenters but I simply can't justify the expense. I compromise by buying PP food safe buckets and picking up beer kegs as and when they become available at a reasonable price.

[shadylane]

Debating about if roundup is safe to use or not, is one thing.
Talking about fermenting in it's empty barrel is another

Here's my opinion
What part of this warning do some of the folks not understand

"Destroy the empty container by perforation and
flattening and do not use for any other purpose"

All I can say is.
If you want to use a roundup barrel for fermenting
Drink you own damn whiskey, don't be sharing it.

[still_stirrin]

This thread, like the other, are “fire starters”. I’m compelled to avoid threads like these because sooner or later someone will get a “timeout”, or worse.

Comments like this are proof:

....Ignoring my challenge does not mean that it does not exist.

They incite arguments of minimal value. There are many other discussions that can and should be exploited.
ss

[dunluce]

They incite arguments of minimal value. There are many other discussions that can and should be exploited.
ss

It's also located in the Off-Topic Discussion forum. I have found that over the years, if I got bothered by certain topics being discussed, simply avoiding the off topic section fixed that for me.

[Butch27]

It only shows what a lethal dose is in the short term. It has absolutely nothing to do with the long term ramifications of ingestion or exposure to the substance.

Okay, so you're going to ignore the LD50 - fine.

What's your scientific studied and peer-reviewed evidence on the long-term toxicity of glyphosate?

I have been busy for a couple days but RC AL, Normandie and Shady pretty much summed things up for me so I do not feel any need to reinvent the wheel.

[The Baker]

Won't use glyco containers.
But I have happily used cleaning fluid containers.
The fluids were strongly alkaline so I rinsed the containers thoroughly in water say three times
and in acid ( not as severe as it sounds, vinegar in water) say three times
to neutralise any remaining alkali
and then in water again and left them in the sun awhile.

Geoff

[dunluce]

I have been busy for a couple days but RC AL, Normandie and Shady pretty much summed things up for me so I do not feel any need to reinvent the wheel.

This would be a classic case of a typical science denier. Stir up an entire hornet's nest, but when it comes down to it, and tough questions get asked, pass it off and pass the buck.