Cracked Corn Flavor

[jake_jimmylegs]

A question or two about the flavor of cracked feed corn... I've used human food corn meal and corn flour before but just started using cracked corn from the feed store, it kind of tastes like there's dirt or maybe an excess amount of green plant matter in it. I've been cooking it but not using enzymes yet, I just got some alpha yesterday which I plan on using and just now, pitched some into a brew that's been going for a week because why not.

I do notice when stirring the pot, after it has settled and go to stir again there is a thin grayish layer that settles out of the water onto the top of the grain in the pot and I do see chunks of cob as well as a bit of twiggy stuff. I got a bag of whole corn kernels and they definitely look cleaner, less impurities. Would I be better off getting a grinder and using the whole kernels instead of cracked or should I modify my still to make neutral when using the cracked?

This is all single run and haven't tried doing a spirit run because my setup usually produced great stuff on the first run. I intended to make flavored corn whiskey but am not opposed to making neutral. I'm already contemplating modifying my column to possibly boka style or offset LM. Thoughts?

[Demy]

Maybe some people don't care but I always wash the cereals before using them ... 2 buckets one inside the other are enough, the one inside with holes in the bottom (like a large colander). I like to self-produce malt with cereals and I can assure you that the water from the first washings is very dirty .. perhaps for distillation you could turn a blind eye (I don't) but for a beer absolutely not! This is just my opinion.

[frunobulax]

When I use corn, it's corn meal with enzymes, I think it's the best bang for the buck and human grade. But any cereal mash is a PITA.
When making a neutral, I would just use sugar, or what ever fermentable you can get cheapest. Corn is way to hard to work with to turn
in to a neutral.

[still_stirrin]

Don’t worry jakeleg, the “dirt” won’t come over into your product whether using a reflux column or a potstill. And what you get out of the still will be different than what you get out of the fermenter.

I use field corn in my bourbon recipe that comes right out of the semi that hauls the grains to the coop. I has all kinds of “stuff” in it including bits of cob, weed seeds, and even dead bugs sometimes. When I weigh it before milling it, I’ll pick out the trash if I can. If not, it runs through the mill and will get mashed with the corn just the same. I do not wash the grains because they typically are at or around 14% moisture content. The kernals are semi-crunchy and mill quite easily. From there, I put the grains into stock pots of boiling water to gelatinize. I dough in and then put the “pudding” into the oven set at 190*F for a couple of hours. The grains will soak up the mash water and make a “corn soup”.

Coming out of the oven, getting ready to add to the mash tun when I add the rest of the malts, the corn mash smells just like “corn bread mix” and is usually about the same consistency. It’s hot, so I have to add tepid water to bring the temperature down to my mash temperature of 150*F, when I add the other grains.

Corn is a challenging cereal grain to master, but definitely worth it because it helps give you the classic “bourbon flavor”. I would use a different recipe if my goal was a neutral. I like to use Rad’s All Bran recipe for neutrals. It’s easy and predictable. And quite “flavor neutral”, especially when run through a reflux column, which you should use for making neutrals.
ss

[jake_jimmylegs]

Thanks for the ideas, guys. The problem is that the 'dirt' flavor is coming through in the product. I think I'll try rinsing it and cleaning the junk out of it a little better and then not 'cooking' it like porridge before I add enzymes next time. I don't care if I get absolutely neutral product, I just don't want it to taste like dirt.

[still_stirrin]

jake, I think you’re tasting “tails”, not dirt.

The tails from a unmashed grain would be very “husky” tasting, like dirt. It is from the oils and tannins common in the tails. The alcohol should taste slightly sweet. And if you had corn, it’ll taste a little like sweet corn, perhaps slightly buttery.

So, I suspect your processes, mashing and fermentation are the source of the taste you don’t like. Not the grains themselves.

But one thing to pay attention to is if the grains were moldy. That mold will definitely impart a “musty” or “dirty” flavor in your ferment. I don’t know if that would carry over in the distillate, which I doubt, unless you experience puling when running your still. And moldy grain could be unhealthy too, which is a major concern of mine, since I’ve very allergic to molds.
ss

[zapata]

Maybe corn is just the nastiest whiskey grain mother earth has given us and if it weren't for a greedy industry that realized it's the most efficient grain in terms of ethanol production then we'd never have to suffer it a glass at all?

/ducks

But yeah, I can taste a difference between feed corn and human corn. Especially old, dusty, rancid feed corn.

[jake_jimmylegs]

jake, I think you’re tasting “tails”, not dirt.

The tails from a unmashed grain would be very “husky” tasting, like dirt. It is from the oils and tannins common in the tails. The alcohol should taste slightly sweet. And if you had corn, it’ll taste a little like sweet corn, perhaps slightly buttery.

So, I suspect your processes, mashing and fermentation are the source of the taste you don’t like. Not the grains themselves.

But one thing to pay attention to is if the grains were moldy. That mold will definitely impart a “musty” or “dirty” flavor in your ferment. I don’t know if that would carry over in the distillate, which I doubt, unless you experience puling when running your still. And moldy grain could be unhealthy too, which is a major concern of mine, since I’ve very allergic to molds.
ss

I think you might be on to something with the 'husky' dirty grass flavor coming through in the tails. Everything I've produced in this still has always been so good just pouring everything together that I didn't think twice about tasting before mixing it all together.

And wow, the first half of the last batch I ran in my pot still, no column, and the second half done in the column was mixed with the first stuff from the pot. I'll definitely be paying closer attention to the cuts and flavor before mixing anything together.

[Demy]

Washing corn is always a good idea (less important for a distillate) but we must exclude the presence of tails because they are really horrible. A minimum of the first lines on some drinks are required but not too much.

[jake_jimmylegs]

Washing corn is always a good idea (less important for a distillate) but we must exclude the presence of tails because they are really horrible. A minimum of the first lines on some drinks are required but not too much.

Maybe that's why JD drips their product through vats of (maple?) charcoal

[Demy]

Washing corn is always a good idea (less important for a distillate) but we must exclude the presence of tails because they are really horrible. A minimum of the first lines on some drinks are required but not too much.

Maybe that's why JD drips their product through vats of (maple?) charcoal

I'm not a whiskey expert and I don't try to imitate commercial products but in that case I think it's made to flavor the product. There are activated carbons used to "purify" and remove odors from the product then there are burnt wood products for flavoring, they are 2 very different things. I am against collecting a lot of tails and then trying to fix it with activated carbon ... much better to make excellent cuts.

[jake_jimmylegs]

Probably right. I thought about it after I posted and thought it's not much different than us using charred bits of barrel staves. That said, I poured the remainder of that batch onto once-used charred barrel stave bits (used on apple brandy) around a week ago and it actually seems to be tasting and smelling better. Actually those stave bits are 3rd time being used, the last time I reused them I ground off the old char with the belt grinder and re-charred them.

[still_stirrin]

I’ve been to the “filter room” at Jack Daniels.

Their filters are 20 feet tall columns roughly 5 feet in diameter. The spirits are pumped into the top of the filters and sprinkled over the top of the charcoal bed, then collected in troughs at the bottom of the column and then pumped to the barreling room. The filters use charcoal chunks made in the “rick yard” where stacks/ricks of oak strips are burned to coals. The filters reduce the heads, which are significant coming from the continuous line distillery. The filters are not used to impart flavors, rather remove unwanted flavors and aromas.

The “air” in the filter rooms is filled with highly volatile vapors, almost enough to take your breath away. And it is absolutely forbidden to take photos in there as any type of spark could be extremely dangerous.

Again, Jack Daniels has marketed their famous “charcoal filtered” process as a signature. The fact is...their product is so “headsy” that without some processing after the still, you wouldn’t want to drink it. Trying to emulate JD, as if you believe that to be the “benchmark” just tells me you don’t know what you’re doing. Make a better product from your still, and you won’t need charcoal. ‘Nuf said.
ss

[SmokyMtn]

JD is the #1 American Whiskey sold worldwide. You may not like the taste, but it is highly sought after. And deserves some credit.

Of course numerous members here can make a superior product. We are hand crafting, small batch whiskey.

[River Rat]

Trying to emulate JD, as if you believe that to be the “benchmark” just tells me you don’t know what you’re doing. Make a better product from your still, and you won’t need charcoal. ‘Nuf said.

Pretty big leap to say the OP is trying to emulate JD. I didn't get that impression from anywhere in this thread.
I have to agree though that JD's filtering is all about removing bad stuff, not adding good stuff.

[Bushman]

I am with still stirrin on this thread. I have never tasted an off flavor on my feed corn. If you are concerned Demy’s method seems sound I have just never found the need.

[Pierrot Lunaire 55]

I've been buying feed grade cracked corn at my local farm store, Nutrena to be exact. Usually it is bright white and yellow when I open the bag. Yes, there is a bit of stem and whatnot in there, but really very little.

Last summer I got some bags that had a noticeable gray tinge to it. It was a little weird, but I used it anyway and it seemed to work.

Is that some kind of fungus? Was the corn put in the bag with too much moisture? A common occurrence? I haven't been able to find any discussion of what the source is.

Thanks.

[8Ball]

I've been buying feed grade cracked corn at my local farm store, Nutrena to be exact. Usually it is bright white and yellow when I open the bag. Yes, there is a bit of stem and whatnot in there, but really very little.

Last summer I got some bags that had a noticeable gray tinge to it. It was a little weird, but I used it anyway and it seemed to work.

Is that some kind of fungus? Was the corn put in the bag with too much moisture? A common occurrence? I haven't been able to find any discussion of what the source is.

Thanks.

My guess is that it was old & stale vs fresh.

[MartinCash]

My guess is that it was old & stale vs fresh.

I agree. Or harvested before full maturity vs harvested when fully ripe...