Second attempt at a Tried and True, still failure

[BatGuano]

I don't know what the hell I am doing wrong. My first attempt (Birdwatchers) stalled part way through, and adding more nutrients, and more DADY didn't fix it. Fleishmans came to the rescue in that case.

Now, my Wineos has stalled. I followed the recipe exactly except for gypsum (didn't have any), and it seemed to start off well for the first couple of days, but on day 3 it just stalled at 1.04 (started at 1.068). The pH started off at 5.2, but dropped to 3 on day 3, so I threw some baking soda in it, which raised it to 4. The temps were 30+ for the first three days.

I pitched another 1/4 cup of DADY today, that seemed to raise the activity somewhat, but I am at a loss as to what is going wrong, and why my pH suddenly drops.

[Corn Cracker]

You say the temps were 30+, that seems a bit on the warm side, no?

[still_stirrin]

Acids are produced by the yeast in the consumption of sugars process. It (acids) are an intermediary product on the path to ethanol. So, it is not surprising that the pH will nosedive.

But, what you can do to buffer the acid production is to add some calcium carbonate when you pitch the yeast, or after the first 8 hours of fermentation.

Also, I don’t know if you’re adding acid at the start, ie - lemon juice, or citric acid. If so, omit it on your next effort. A sugar wash will naturally acidify, so you really don’t need any more acid.

I believe it was originally added to the wash to inhibit bacterial contamination until the yeast population was great enough to actively ferment the wash. But if you get activity within 12-24 hours, bacteria should not be an issue and you can omit the acidification.
ss

[Hambone]

+1 ss

Prevention of a pH crash is way better than correcting one. I like crushed oyster shells in a paint strainer bag. Add it at the start of a sugar wash no matter the starting pH.

[still_stirrin]

Gypsum is hydrated calcium sulfate used to correct mineral deficiencies in water which is to be used for brewing. It is used in de-mineralized or soft to medium hard water to increase permanent hardness. Used as directed, gypsum is effective in eliminating the variations in composition often encountered in water from surface sources. It will help establish proper pH of the mash (lowering pH) and the wort and provide sufficient calcium ions essential for enzyme function, kettle protein coagulation and yeast metabolism.

Addition rate is 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water, and best added to the water used for mashing grains.

Note - gypsum is also a source of sulfur in a mash and if planning to distill it, then it is wise to incorporate copper into your still or boiler.
ss

[BatGuano]

You say the temps were 30+, that seems a bit on the warm side, no?

When my Birdwatchers stalled, my temps were between 24 and 27, and it was mentioned that it was a little cool for DADY, so I made sure this one was higher.

[BatGuano]

if you get activity within 12-24 hours, bacteria should not be an issue and you can omit the acidification.
ss

I will definitely do this on my next experiment.

[BatGuano]

+1 ss

Prevention of a pH crash is way better than correcting one. I like crushed oyster shells in a paint strainer bag. Add it at the start of a sugar wash no matter the starting pH.

Would mussel shells work as well? Because I live next to the ocean, and these things are all over the place.

[BatGuano]

Gypsum is hydrated calcium sulfate used to correct mineral deficiencies in water which is to be used for brewing. It is used in de-mineralized or soft to medium hard water to increase permanent hardness. Used as directed, gypsum is effective in eliminating the variations in composition often encountered in water from surface sources. It will help establish proper pH of the mash (lowering pH) and the wort and provide sufficient calcium ions essential for enzyme function, kettle protein coagulation and yeast metabolism.

Addition rate is 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water, and best added to the water used for mashing grains.

Note - gypsum is also a source of sulfur in a mash and if planning to distill it, then it is wise to incorporate copper into your still or boiler.
ss

Our water is from a shallow (22 feet) well, and it is very nice and clear. Maybe I should get it tested.

[NZChris]

+1 ss

Prevention of a pH crash is way better than correcting one. I like crushed oyster shells in a paint strainer bag. Add it at the start of a sugar wash no matter the starting pH.

Would mussel shells work as well? Because I live next to the ocean, and these things are all over the place.

I use any whole sea shells, the thicker the better, weighing them, wet, before and after the ferment and recording the losses for future reference.

[Trapped-in-Oz]

Our water is from a shallow (22 feet) well, and it is very nice and clear. Maybe I should get it tested.

Water the first consideration.

For my ‘sugar wash’ I add food grade calcium carbonate (precipitated chalk).

I also increase the tomato paste.

[Hambone]

I would recommend testing your well water. I’m fortunate to live in and area with plenty of calcium and magnesium so I don’t add anything to my water but grain (but still add shells to a sugar wash).

You don’t know what you got until you test….

[BatGuano]

I use any whole sea shells, the thicker the better, weighing them, wet, before and after the ferment and recording the losses for future reference.

Well, mussel shells aren't very thick, but I do have a lot of them (collected by my wife for another project, now finished)

[BatGuano]

I would recommend testing your well water. I’m fortunate to live in and area with plenty of calcium and magnesium so I don’t add anything to my water but grain (but still add shells to a sugar wash).

You don’t know what you got until you test….

Yea, I've come to the same conclusion. Fortunately, I work at a university (in the IT dept.), so I know a lot of people with labs and the knowledge to use it.

[NZChris]

I use any whole sea shells, the thicker the better, weighing them, wet, before and after the ferment and recording the losses for future reference.

Well, mussel shells aren't very thick, but I do have a lot of them (collected by my wife for another project, now finished)

Put some in a bag, dunk it in water, shake it out and weigh it. Do the same at the end of the ferment and record the loss. Record any pH readings you take. If the ferment is finished and you're not going to strip it for a while, take them out as an excess of Calcium carbonate in a dead ferment can raise the pH over 7 and wreck the wash.

Every type of ferment is different. I've had them gain weight in grape brandies, some type of crystal forms on them.

[BatGuano]

Update: It seems the addition of more DADY kicked up something, as my stalled ferment at 1.04 dropped to 1.022 in 24 hours, and the pH stayed roughly around 4 (after adding baking soda a couple of days ago). Here's hoping I can get it to <1 without further intervention.

NZChris, How long have you've been doing this? You're like a Jedi Master here.

[still_stirrin]

Update: It seems the addition of more DADY kicked up something, as my stalled ferment at 1.04 dropped to 1.022 in 24 hours, and the pH stayed roughly around 4 (after adding baking soda a couple of days ago). Here's hoping I can get it to <1 without further intervention.

Well, good luck.

My “gut instinct” says you won’t make it below 1.000 because the production of acids as the yeast continues to reduce the sugars will cause the pH to fall well below 4.0. In fact, it’ll fall to 3.2 to 3.4 causing the yeast to stop working. And if that doesn’t do it and you continue to add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to try to raise the pH, the sodium levels will kill off the yeast anyway.

So, I predict it’ll stop work around 1.010, or so with the pH at 3.2 to 3.4. It’ll be slightly sweet, so you’ll run it anyway. That won’t be much of a problem except you will have left a little of the “alcohol potential” in your boiler after the strip.

Next time, if you try this recipe again, I suggest you listen to what some of the experts here have suggested and add a small bag of calcium carbonate, or oyster shells to the fermenter once it’s started.

You can lead a horse to water…but you can’t beat him over the head and expect him to drink.

Good luck.
ss

[NZChris]

Finely ground Calcium carbonate has a huge ratio of surface area to volume compared to whole shells or slabs of marble, so it behaves differently in a wash. I like to chuck in some shells and leave it alone until the ferment finishes, others like to fiddle with pH throughout the ferment. Both methods will work, but I'm a lazy bastard.

[NZChris]

NZChris, How long have you've been doing this? You're like a Jedi Master here.

More than 3 decades, but I'm still learning. The more you know, the more rabbit holes you find to go down.

[BatGuano]

So, I predict it’ll stop work around 1.010, or so with the pH at 3.2 to 3.4. It’ll be slightly sweet, so you’ll run it anyway. That won’t be much of a problem except you will have left a little of the “alcohol potential” in your boiler after the strip.

Checked it today and it is 1.008, a pH of 4, a temp of 29c, and still at an activity level of 4 (out of 5). I don't know why the pH has not dropped, I might have put too much baking soda in 3 days ago (1 tbsp). If I can get it to a 1 without intervention, I'll be happy with that.

Next time, if you try this recipe again, I suggest you listen to what some of the experts here have suggested and add a small bag of calcium carbonate, or oyster shells to the fermenter once it’s started.

That is why I posted here, to get expert advise. I am going to try my next batch with mussel shells (all I have right now), and take a walk down to the beach and hunt for some thicker shells (no oysters in this area).

[The Baker]

hunt for some thicker shells

Wouldn't worry too much.
After all, eggshells are fine.

Geoff