For Best Results Keep the Mash ABV's Down

[dunluce]

You may know the different of what the words mean.. but do you know how the mash abv is achieved, which are much different than that of a wash..

Ok, the patronizing act is getting a little long in the wind. You know nothing about me, not about most of the others on the forum I gather. Just because you might be older than most members does not give you a right to act like you are so incredibly superior to them.

You're starting to get it.. the abv of a mash is actually best at 5.5 - 6% level than higher.. as to a wash the best is at the 10%, but if one has knowledge and understanding of the process, one can make a wash at 16% and still be a very good product.. it's has a lot to do with what the ferment produces and what to take out and what to keep..

Developing knowledge and understanding only come from many experiment which means doing the many different wash from a consistence process and method, not just from a fermentation level, but also from a distilling level.. doing something consistently requires logging of info and discipline which is something few do..

This hobby is very interest, as it not only allow one to make a very fine finish product for himself, but also can teach many things about one self.. example.. when one is careless in his method or process, the ferment or the still lets you know by the end product..

Mars

Thanks for explaining the scientific method to me, albeit in a much more long-winded and patronizing way compared to how I teach it to my Grade 10 students.

it's has a lot to do with what the ferment produces and what to take out and what to keep..

I would LOVE to know what you 'take out' of a ferment and what you 'keep'..... you fishing things in an out of an active ferment?

[StillerBoy]

Really Stillerboy? Everything Ive ever read, seen, and been told, as well as my own experience tells me differently.
Do tell us more.

Maybe you need to do some more experimenting instead of just having read, seen or been told.. then maybe you would have an idea of what I stated..

I have stated the method and process many times before in the forum.. it's all in here.. and can be reduplicated at any time.. it's just that people stubbornly reject the idea that it can be done.. like I stated before, it's just not only in the fermentation process but also on how a still is operated, and what you keep..

Mars

[dunluce]

I have stated the method and process many times before in the forum.. it's all in here..

You have over 2600 posts....post a link to this info please.

[StillerBoy]

You have over 2600 posts....post a link to this info please.

Then I guess you have some work to do.. you'll need to do what I've done over the years..

Mars

[dunluce]

Then I guess you have some work to do.. you'll need to do what I've done over the years..

Mars

Nope, I'm just going to call b*******. You are the one who claimed that you can do a 16% sugar wash, so the burden of proof is on you. It's not on me to back up your claim.

Edit: I tell you what....in the spirit of collaboration, and your insistence that this can be done as long as everyone follows the same procedure as you and proper record keeping (cosistence, as you refer to it), let's do an experiment...an actual scientific method base experiment to test your hypothesis.

Give us all your exact materials, your detailed procedure, including all your variables (independant and dependant), and we can all replicate your experiment, analyze the data, and do some scientific peer review.

Hell, if we can all produce a very good product with a 16% wash, it will probably go in the T&T section.

[StillerBoy]

Give us all your exact materials, your detailed procedure, including all your variables (independant and dependant), and we can all replicate your experiment, analyze the data, and do some scientific peer review.

You can call it whatever want.. I gotten past having to feed the ego.. and I don't have to proof anything to anyone.. I know what was done along with a few others are learning to master the hobby..

Furthermore, all has been posted here over the years, all in providing guidance to those that were having issues by not being mindful of what they were doing or failing to follow proper process..

Furthermore I have no need to make it in the T & T section..

Your ego is getting the better of you.. best advise.. spend the time learning all there is to the hobby..

Mars

[shadylane]

If y’all aren’t careful you gonna release the Kraken and Jimbo come back to learn us all

That's OK
What Jimbo writes.
Is good enough to study on

[shadylane]

I find this thread interesting in many ways, first Jimbo’s original post is spot on and should have lead to multiple discussions at the time. The post originated in 2013 and the first response is in 2021. Seven years later Wow!

The force must be strong.
In the newbie that found and raised it from the dead.

[dunluce]

Your ego is getting the better of you.. best advise.. spend the time learning all there is to the hobby..

Mars

No ego here, more than willing to learn from you. Not sure why you won't give out the info that you keep saying you have provided to others.

[shadylane]

Keep your sugar based washes down to reasonable numbers (sugarhead mentors here in HD state 10-12% maximum), use a good yeast (not Turbo) and your yeast will be happy, unstressed and produce a much better drink.

Good advice right there

It would take time and tricks to get a wash up to 16%
Then it would take a reflux still, to make it almost drinkable.
If Ya don't believe it, Just ask most of the newbies

[dunluce]

It would take time and tricks to get a wash up to 16%
Then it would take a reflux still, to make it almost drinkable.

I'm going to go with this as well, unless someone proves it differently.

[Jimbo]

Ive modified my opinion on this over the years. All my mashes are 10% now. No problems when care is taken, ferment low and slow with a good yeast. Get the mash down into low 70's F before pitching, and use gypsum and a little Epsom in the mash. Ferment with US05. Bourbon washes ferment out clean down to 0.998.

[Deplorable]

Ive modified my opinion on this over the years. All my mashes are 10% now. No problems when care is taken, ferment low and slow with a good yeast. Get the mash down into low 70's F before pitching, and use gypsum and a little Epsom in the mash. Ferment with US05. Bourbon washes ferment out clean down to 0.998.

+1 All of my AG whiskies have been on US 05, and target 1.074 OG and finish at .998 and I've had really good yields, mild tails and [what I think are] small heads cuts. Fermentation target of 68 to 72F and they finish in about 7 to 9 days. Targeting 10%, and taking good care of the ferment makes calculating the yield from my 25 gallon ferments easy and predictable.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I feel like the original advise is still valid.

Don’t chase high gravity ferments, just run your rig a little more.

Yes, IF you know what you’re doing you can ferment st higher OG’s, but if you know what you’re doing you already know what you’re doing.

Most people starting out are just feeling their way and lower OG will be more forgiving.

Kinda like having at least 20% malt for an all-grain mash. Can it convert with less? Yes, but 20% will get you there even if your protocol isn’t top notch.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

MCH, I always admire how you can appreciate everyone's view and give them all legitimacy when you enter a topic. You bring balance and clarity to the force.

[TRK41]

Im super new here but ive noticed that maybe we nitpicking a tad with the mash/wash language. Shouldnt your end mash specific gravity and wash gravity be the same thing? Fermentation is all based on 3 things, time, temp and amount. Temp being the most important because most beer brewers know that higher temps produce way more esters than low temp ferments. Isnt this EXACTLY the same as beer brewing minus the boil? But from everything im reading the boil seems to have an added benefit of reaching your final gravity/wash correctly. If im wrong please tell me where im wrong, im a student of the game but have been making beer a long time.

[Hambone]

Im super new here but ive noticed that maybe we nitpicking a tad with the mash/wash language. Shouldnt your end mash specific gravity and wash gravity be the same thing?

Not sure if you’re distinguishing mash (sugars from grains) from wash (sugars from sugar, molasses, etc.) or asking if both types should end the same.

Ending gravity will depend on the amount of unfermentable substances remaining in the distiller’s beer. This varies somewhat depending on the source of starch and conversion to sugars…

[TRK41]

Hambone, yes ur correct, but is wash just short for sugar wash? I assumed it was just the starting gravity of the pre-fermentation.

[Hambone]

Mashes use grains or fruits (must) as the primary source of sugars for fermentation. Washes use more refined sources of sugars.

I suppose the language may vary with beer brewing…

[Saltbush Bill]

Do you mash Fruits ?
I'd be more inclined to call them a Must or Fruit Wash.

ive noticed that maybe we nitpicking a tad with the mash/wash language.

We all had to learn the lingo when we first started out, if people start calling things what ever they want it all gets real confusing really fast.
For that reason its beneficial to all involved if we speak the same language.

[TRK41]

Agreed, thanks guys onward and upward.

[whitetail_1978]

Thank you for the great advice. As a newb/novice, I have ventured down that path and needed to see this to get back to better flavor rather than higher abv. I obviously need to study my yeasts better.
Thanks!!

[Hebden]

Mash tuns made for making small batches and 1:1 sized fermenters with small boilers are a big part of the problem as I see it.
People are trying to squeeze more alcohol out of their undersized gear. I think there are a lot of brewers that migrate to distilling and bring along their gear which made them a decent amount of beer, but is grossly inadequate for making Whiskey. Sometimes its hard to let go...

I have an 8 gallon boiler, but I don't use an 8 gallon fermenter unless I've been gifted some exotic ingredient that I can make some small one-off product with. Trying to make anything decent to fill the cabinet would drive me insane at that size.

Hi, I am a total newbie so please forgive my ignorance. What size fermentor do you need in relation to the boiler or refluxer?

ps If it makes a differance I was wanting to produce gins but may expand into other spirits eventually.

[Deplorable]

Hi, I am a total newbie so please forgive my ignorance. What size fermenter do you need in relation to the boiler or refluxer?

PS If it makes a difference I was wanting to produce gins but may expand into other spirits eventually.

3 times the capacity of your boiler is a good rule of thumb. That will give you enough low wines to give you close to a full boiler charge for a spirit run.
I don't follow that rule. My fermenter capacity gives me two stripping charges which results in a little over half a charge for the Spirit run.

[Hebden]

Thank you for that 3:1 ratio, that is great advice.

Not sure what stripping charges are yet, but it is ok to run the boiler or reflux tower with a half empty pot?

[NZChris]

Thank you for that 3:1 ratio, that is great advice.

Not sure what stripping charges are yet, but it is ok to run the boiler or reflux tower with a half empty pot?

It depends on how you are heating it.

[Hebden]

Thank you for that 3:1 ratio, that is great advice.

It depends on how you are heating it.

When you say heating "it", do you mean the fermentor?
How do the commercial distilleries and professionals heat it?
And what is the best way?

[Deplorable]

Deleted. Post was rude and incendiary.

[NZChris]

Thank you for that 3:1 ratio, that is great advice.

It depends on how you are heating it.

When you say heating "it", do you mean the fermentor?
How do the commercial distilleries and professionals heat it?
And what is the best way?

Read my post again.

[BrewinBrian44]

This is a great thread for the new folks to read! I came across it in my searching when I first started.

Funny story, I got into this hobby after a distiller friend of mine convinced me to pull the trigger. After countless hours of learning stuff from HD and implementing it in my process, When I talk to him now, I realize he literally does all the stuff you shouldn’t do.

He’s all about max yield in the shortest amount of time. Pushes huge ABV sugar washes with turbo yeast once a year to make a stockpile of apple pie. He relies on carbon filtering to make anything drinkable. Luckily for him, apple pie masks a lot of the sins along the way. I tried some of his white shine and it was absolutely terrible! When I try to explain what’s wrong with his process, he looks at me like I’m some asshole know-it-all. He needs to do some reading on here haha.