The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

[Badmotivator]

Here is a thread on my design of bain marie barrels:

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=84350

Worth a look, folks. The hole-saw method could be an easier way for folks to get started with this general concept.

[OtisT]

My kids spend all their time in the basement, so every few weeks during the summer I put them out to soak up some sun so they age better.

Badmo, it was really great seeing you a few weeks back. D man said he really had a good time hanging out with you too. Let’s do it again soon.

Otis

[Badmotivator]

My kids spend all their time in the basement, so every few weeks during the summer I put them out to soak up some sun so they age better.

Badmo, it was really great seeing you a few weeks back. D man said he really had a good time hanging out with you too. Let’s do it again soon.

Otis

It's fun to see them all playing happily in the sunshine.

Thanks for roping me into your herd, Otis. Nice bunch of guys. I'm up for it any time you're in town. Next time, come up to my house and sample? My kids have grown up quite a bit.

[The Baker]

If you think the head popping off or even coming slightly loose could be a problem, you could try something like this. The Bain-Marie insert has a raised lip and you could easily make a flat stock piece with two hooks to go over the edge of the insert, then wedge tapered oak pieces against the head and the flat stock. The flat stock will have some spring and guarantee the head will stay in place and stay tight.
Hooks.jpg

P.S. I think you have come up with something quite brilliant with this idea here Badmo! Very very ingenious! Kiwi

I am looking at something similar with Moccona coffee jars which have a similar lip.
I will maybe make an oak head a touch smaller than the opening lest it swell and break the glass;
but shaped like a whisky bottle cork. With a flat 'top' perhaps less than half an inch thick that extends over the top of the jar.
So it goes down into the jar a bit but the head actually sits on the top of the jar...
could put a little beeswax in the little gap (or better still, on top of the lip) to seal it better but not risk cracking the glass...
Hopefully.

Anyway these one and a half litre jars look to be the right size so a clip (or two crossed clips) from a four inch
preserving jar (canning jar) (Fowlers Vacola in our area) should clip on the head!!

Depends a bit on the thickness of the 'tee' part of the head...
Too thick and it wouldn't work.

And should be little risk of breaking the glass, the clamps are designed for (admittedly stronger) glass vessels.

Should be simple for a wood-turning mate to make the heads!

Geoff

[The Baker]

Nice stainless tabs! I have been thinking about making a bracket for my barrels just in case I ran into your same issue. For us who don't have access to a welder, something like this would keep constant pressure on the barrel head. It would span the top of the bain-marie and grab on the lip, and then use a bolt to drive a bar down against the barrel head. Could be made out of metal, wood, 3D printed with plastic, etc. It is also removable in case there was a need to pop a new head into a bain-marie.

2019_01_10_08_30_32_Greenshot.png

coupla years later...
reading through the thread for research.

If four inch is appropriate you can probably use spring clips for preserving/ canning jar lids.
Inexpensive and available. Singly or crossed in twos.

Geoff

[The Baker]

Repeating myself a bit.

Geoff

[The Baker]

Further to my post of Monday;

It looks like I can get some staves from the local winemaker, 'with flavour left in them'.

I said, 'Should be simple for a wood-turning mate to make the heads!'
I would have to ask diplomatically, there are two or three with a wood lathe who know of my hobby
but they are more of a 'close acquaintance' than a good friend...
Wouldn't want to just lay it on them.

But I think there is a way around it.
I could make the heads in two parts. A disc to go in the mouth of the jar,
and another wider one to attach to the top of that (stainless screw?) and rest on the lip of the jar.
(As someone suggested) I could use my son's pedestal drill to cut the discs,
holding the wood in the 'vice' of the drill platform and using hole cutters without the centre 'positioning drill'.

Also this way if I want I could leave the wider, top piece square not round
(which would save buying another, expensive, large hole cutter)
and that would act instead of a rack to position the barrel.
Side by side, but if I put a dowel peg (probably two) in the top of the lower one and a hole (two) in the upper
I could also stack them vertically.
Either way or both! A square of barrels, 3 x 3 or whatever!.
(They would probably need a support at the back but that could be any ordinary wood
and simple to construct, probably the same size as the top square but with a hole for the jar...)
Fun.

Geoff
P. S. Spot what I missed in the case of the square ones... G

[NormandieStill]

I'm liking this idea, but I don't think you need the disc to go inside the jar. It's not adding anything to the water-tightness as it can't be a press-fit against the glass, but it is adding end-grain. I would just do the outer board and maybe use a router to cut out a slightly lower section into which the jar would fit. If you stick with square pieces, a matching square at the back and some threaded rod connecting the two would allow you to put the sealing board under pressure against the glass and also allow them to stack more easily.

[ydoih8u]

I wouldn't worry about concealing what you're trying to make with the staves. You could be aging anything in there. Tea, coffee beans, hot sauce, cocktails, even commerical spirits.

[The Baker]

Thanks, NormandieStill,

What seems a brilliant thought often has flaws so I am glad you like the basic idea.
I have decided the idea of two pieces is flawed, I need the air on the other side of the oak to the spirit.
Not blocked by an extra piece of oak.

I had thought of (made a rough prototype) joining a matching square (of ordinary timber) at the back.
The smallest thickness of CARRIAGE BOLTS I could find was I think M10. Far thicker than needed and I expect comparatively expensive.
It looks as though I can get threaded rod in M2 and the only extra needed would be one nut. Neater and should be much cheaper.
Thanks for that idea.

Geoff

[tiramisu]

7 orders in transit from china ... a pound of stay-brite #8 and too much stay-clean liqued on back order.
I am getting jealous watching everyone else fill barrels while I am still assembling lego....
My 180mm hole-saw bit showed up today.... I suspect this won't work but Ima gonna try leaning into it.
If it fails I have a 43mm carbide holesaw and a dremel .... Will have to buy a cutting tool if I don't have the patience.

This would have been much easier if I started 30 years ago and never moved.

[rubberduck71]

This would have been much easier if I started 30 years ago and never moved.

Amen to that!

Imagine talking to yourself 30 years ago on how to properly ferment wine, cider, beer, and (as a poor college student) buying even just a Still Spirits 4L AirStill (from what I read, they started in 1989 -- which was my freshman year @ college).

Egads, the money I would have saved!!! And then post-college building up a stock in the basement of my first house...

Ah well, with age comes wisdom.

Duck

[tiramisu]

If I was in the USA I would be ordering a stack of these inserts from webstaurant.
Has anyone found comparable prices for canuckistan?

[rubberduck71]

If I was in the USA I would be ordering a stack of these inserts from webstaurant.
Has anyone found comparable prices for canuckistan?

Check out BadM's site: https://badmotivatorbarrels.com/international

He may be able to send some to ya.

Duck

[The Baker]

The duck said, 'Ah well, with age comes wisdom.'

Not according to my lady.

Geoff

[The Baker]

Any chance of just selling the pre-made barrel heads? Save on freight and time sourcing and weathering the oak..

I would be interested in that because I live in Australia and shipping would be easier. Less bulky.
I love the idea of these barrels but would not be able to make them. I am not skilled in woodworking at all.

Geoff

At the moment I am trying to set up some barrels with coffee jars and some old staves I got for free.
Well one anyway and I hope for more. Gave the winery owner a bottle of brandy...
See how it goes.
I have made an unfinished prototype and have approached a couple of handy rellies.
All but one are pessimistic, they say these will leak at the 'seal'.
But one of them is always pessimistic...

Geoff

[The Baker]

....
I put three pieces of oak to be steamed in a stovetop steamer, like for steaming veggies or whatever. I tried to arrange them to maximize exposed area. I steamed them for between ½ and a full hour. When a piece was ready to be straightened I placed it between two very thick and squared-up pieces of oak, and then ran to the vise and squeezed the snot out of the whole sandwich. As much pressure as I could get with my small vise. While that sat cooling in the vise I went back and added a new piece of oak to the steamer. From then on, every ten or fifteen minutes I'd remove the straightened piece from the vise, put a new steamed piece in the vise, and put a cold stave piece into the steamer. Repeat as necessary. You can get a lot of reading/cleaning/daydreaming done while running this program.
....

I have a steamer 29 inches long and had intended to steam long pieces but they are a bit too long.
Being longer I thought they would be easier to straighten (more leverage).

I intend to use pieces around twelve inches long (covers two coffee jars) so will have to steam these shorter pieces.
No problem?

Geoff

[ROD01]

If I was in the USA I would be ordering a stack of these inserts from webstaurant.
Has anyone found comparable prices for canuckistan?

I just ordered 4, 4.25 and 4, 6 litre from nella cutlery www.nellaonline.com
With shipping and HST it came to $137.50 CAD
They are out of Toronto,On and was the best pricing I could find in Canada
Rod01

[tiramisu]

If I was in the USA I would be ordering a stack of these inserts from webstaurant.
Has anyone found comparable prices for canuckistan?

I just ordered 4, 4.25 and 4, 6 litre from nella cutlery www.nellaonline.com
With shipping and HST it came to $137.50 CAD
They are out of Toronto,On and was the best pricing I could find in Canada
Rod01

Thanks very much... They have been added to my list.
Are you aging your own oak or have you found a source?

[ROD01]

I bought an old Seagrams barrel 10 year ago and have steamed and straightened a few staves to try - but they are at 1" before cleaning off the char so not sure how "porous" they will be.
I bought 2 pieces of 1.5" x3.5" x42" from A & M Wood Specialties in Cambridge https://www.forloversofwood.com/ but it was around $58.00 with tax so not cheap. As of today there is an add on Kijiji for 1/4 sawn oak from a guy in Dunnville - he quoted me $16.00 per piece 1 1/16" thick by 8" wide by 30" long hoping to pick up 2 pieces this weekend - will let you know if good or not.

Sorry for off topic will go to PM if you need more info.
Rod01

[ROD01]

If you are close to Dunnville, On, check Kijiji for 1/4 sawn white oak
Got 3 pieces 1 3/16" thick, 1 was 8.5" x 67", 1 was 7" x 36" and 1 was 9.25 x 38" all for $57.00 CAD no Bill or tax compared to the two 3.5 x 1.5 x 42 " from Cambridge for $58.00 first pic are the pieces from Cambridge second pic is ripped and stacked for seasoning. Will use some old barrel staves for my Badmo while waiting ttachment=1]20211029_132956.jpg[/attachment]

Rod01

[ROD01]

Me again
Earlier in this thread Bad Motivator and Corene did some tests on trying to speed up seasoning of oak.
I was doing a spirit run today and wondered if soaking the oak in hot backseat and rinsing would help remove the bad stuff and leave the good?
After 1 rain, my oak has already leached out some black stains.
Thoughts?
Rod01

[OtisT]

I don’t think I have read about any successful rapid seasoning processes but I hope you dig up something. Your off to a good start by cutting the wood close to finished size and stacking outdoors with lots of air/sun/water space. Be sure to rotate your stack on occasion.

The key is to Start Now and put out much more wood than you think you will need. By the time you figure out what works or does not work for rapid seasoning, the stuff you put out initially will be seasoned the proper way with time, weather, and bit of raccoon pee. As you use it, add a few more pieces to your stacks to ensure you always have seasoned wood on hand (keep the pieces separated by seasoning age.)

I’m thankful that I’ve been seasoning oak long enough now that there is no need to rush anything. One thing I tried early on and that I still do with my wood is water my stacks during the dry summer months so the wood goes through more wet/dry cycles. I use a moisture meter to know how dry the wood really is. In the summer when the wood gets down around 6% moisture or lower I’ll hose off my stacks and cover/wrap them with plastic to hold in that moisture like a little sweat tent. I do this daily for about a week to get them good and soaked then I uncover the wood to let them dry out again. All that and I rotate the stack each month.

I tried forcing the soaking process by putting the wood in a vacuum tank with water. That soaked them well, but it resulted in a lot of wood checking so I don’t do that any longer. At least the checks were on the same plane as the face of the wood, so the pieces still worked for my barrel heads. I did lose some pieces to excessive checking and milling required a bit more attention to detail.

I toyed with the idea of making a sun kiln tent for creating a dry cycle during the winter, but that just seemed like to much effort.

Here are a few small stacks I have seasons now for use this spring. Half American White Oak, half Oregon Oak, and a few sticks of Pecan sent to me by an HD friend.

Can’t wait to read what others may have tried, hopefully with success. Good luck

Otis

[ROD01]

Thanks for the input - wish I had bought the oak sooner but hindsight is always 20/20
I will try using the backset on enough wood for 2 barrel heads that way not a total loss if it does not pan out.
Might be 6 or 8 months before I know the answer though.....
Rod01

[The Baker]

I got onto a free stave from a monster barrel.
And I hope I can get more of them...

They have been in the weather for years so may have lost some of the flavour from the wine that was in them.
I have cut it into about the lengths I need and next is to steam the pieces and press them to make them straight.

When I break them down to nearly the right thickness I may soak the wood in wine for a while to get some flavour back into the oak.

Geoff

[NormandieStill]

I've been building a retaining wall for the last couple of days. The bulk of which is made from 3cm thick oak planks. I've been collecting a series of off-cuts. As I I piled them up the other day I thought that I should stack them somewhere and wait a few years.

I already have an oak trunk that I felled about 5 years ago and which has been sat outside experiencing the best weather that Normandy can throw at it. I'll try making up some boards from it at some point and see what I can do with them.

[The Baker]

I got onto a free stave from a monster barrel.
And I hope I can get more of them...

They have been in the weather for years so may have lost some of the flavour from the wine that was in them.
I have cut it into about the lengths I need and next is to steam the pieces and press them to make them straight.

When I break them down to nearly the right thickness I may soak the wood in wine for a while to get some flavour back into the oak.

Geoff

Steamed the pieces, I think far too long.
Flattened between planks under the car wheel. Result only fair.
There were cracks in the wood; probably TOO old and too long in the weather,
and after steaming and flattening the cracks opened a lot more.

Will try to get more staves.
Try half an hour in steam (if not enough try an hour). And flatten between short planks in my vice.

If the result is unsatisfactory I will shape the wood with planer or whatever.
Minimum shaping.
From such a big barrel, and already cut into about one foot lengths, (so the curves are "less")
minimum shaping will be enough. I think.

Sealing will be the proof of the plan! Might involve beeswax, might involve a sealing ring
from a canning (preserving) system, covered with plumber's tape.

My son has a router and recent experience cutting round table tops.
He is uncertain about smaller, GROOVES, but I saw them on the internet, good explanation.

Geoff

[OtisT]

After 3 years of experimenting with fruitwood aging I am starting to figure out how much, how long and what type of fruitwood I like to age my spirits with. Last night I prepared this Badmo barrel for a batch of honey bear bourbon that will be cut soon.

This is a one gallon Badmo barrel with a toasted and charred American white oak barrel head and a 21 gram chunk of raw apple heartwood placed inside. The lid has been hammered back in and the barrel is soaking in water now to swell the head. Only 3 more years to go………

21g of raw apple in a one gallon pan

Soaking the head in water for a good seal

Otis

[bluc]

"only 3 more years to go"

[Badmotivator]

This is a little over a ton of four-year wood from Canton Cooperage in Kentucky. I should be set for a while. Time to get to work.