First 2 Runs - Astringent Taste?

[TheAlchemist]

Hey All,

So I successfully fermented 2x 5gal using the Birdwatchers V4 recipe, and ran it, in 2 runs (cleaning run + product run) through a Still Spirits T500, with the standard column (stainless steel reflux). If it is a useful metric at all, the best I could get it dialed in with the included needle valve held the outlet cooling water between 59-60C. Now, I know that this isn't exactly considered a "primo" setup around here, and I do have another still, but I don't think the issue I am having is necessarily related to the still - of course I could be wrong. So I did take cuts, albeit broader cuts than I will take next time, and discarded what I perceived to be the majority of the heads and tails. I let these sit out over night, blended them (final ~92% ABV), and proofed them down to approx. 100 proof (alcohometer read 51-52% ABV when I double checked it).

So, when I went to taste the spoils of my labor, it is certainly drinkable - as good as any mid-tier vodka I've tried, but it is significantly more astringent than I was hoping for. My question is, where should I start, in trying to remedy this? Is the culprit more likely to be in the cuts, the recipe, the ferment, or perhaps the minimal amount of copper in my still (I would normally associate astringency with sulphuric compounds, but what the heck do I know), or is this something that might dissipate/mellow out with aging? I did try proofing a small amount down closer to 40% abv, and it helped, but it still has this astringent bite, which is very perceptible on the nose, and mildly perceptible on the tongue.

Cheers,
Alky

[TheAlchemist]

Oh, I forgot to mention, I also active carbon filtered this distillate after proofing.

[still_stirrin]

Recipe.

That’s my thoughts. And I’m sticking with it.

Why would you need to carbon filter a spirit you refluxed up to 92%ABV?
ss

[Yummyrum]

Astringent sounds like you included too much tails .
Tails from a reflux still are extremely concentrated due to the compression that happens during hearts takeoff .

Any tails jars you include will contaminate the whole blend .

[NZChris]

Look up the definition of astringent. Are you sure that it is the correct word to describe the sensation you are experiencing?

[kimbodious]

Collect in small samples in a large number of jars. Let the samples sit in the jars for several days. Then starting from the middle jar take a sample and dilute 1:1 with water. Swish that around in a wine glass. If it smells bad don’t add it to your final blend. If it smells ok try a tiny taste. If it tastes bad don’t add it to your final blend. Spit it out and rinse your mouth with water, spit the water out as well. Work outwards to either end repeating the diluting swishing sniffing tasting and the spitting. This way you will learn how to discern heads and tails and how to avoid adding the worst of those to your final blend.

[Saltbush Bill]

What Kimbo said above, probably partly due to bad cuts.
Another thing to think about is that running a T500 by temp is the way that the manufacturer does it to make it seem simple to newbs and those who are to lazy or hopeless to learn to run a CM still any other way.
The temp is a rough guide only, The best way is to watch what effect different water flow settings have to the amount of distillate leaving the still.
More water flow = more reflux = less spirit leaving the still= purer and higher ABV.
Less water= Less reflux= more spirit leaving the spout= less purity and lower ABV.
I learned on one of those things.....the day I worked that out was a "ahhha moment" after that I started to get the best from that little still.
Pretty much disregard most of what you read in the "owners manual".
Aim for a very fast broken stream or the smallest thinnest constant stream you can get.......at that point your at about the best place you will get with that still........you can go slower , but you will also go nuts before the run is finished.
The fact that you pulled 92% tells me you were pretty close to the mark anyway.......92% temp corrected is about the best a stock standardT500 will do.
The single biggest thing you can do to improve your booze through that still will be to strip the washes first and then run the low wines......also swap from TPW to SSS.......you will see a big difference IMO.

[kimbodious]

@TheAlchemist, it looks like you tried to pick the transition between heads and hearts and hearts and tails on the fly. It takes keen senses and a bit of experience to be able to make those cuts on the fly. A little bit of heads in your hearts can ruin the whole batch. Tails my dissipate in a blend over time but heads never do. Best bet it to follow the multiple sample jar method and make your cuts after the samples have had a chance to sit for a while.

[squigglefunk]

birdwatchers looks to be a sugar wash, maybe the "astringent" feel is the "sugar bite" which is why many move to all grain recipes. They tend to be smoother in my experience. Also it will likely smooth out more the more you let it rest. A day after distilling is not much time.

[TheAlchemist]

Astringent sounds like you included too much tails .
Tails from a reflux still are extremely concentrated due to the compression that happens during hearts takeoff .

Any tails jars you include will contaminate the whole blend .

Interesting, I would have thought this would come over more in the heads. I will definitely watch out for that on the next run, and as I said, I knew immediately that I needed to be more careful with my cuts on the next run. I collected about 300mL cuts, having not calculated how much total distillate I was expecting to get, I think I'm going to go down to 150mL on the next run, and set them out longer/be more careful when selecting.

Look up the definition of astringent. Are you sure that it is the correct word to describe the sensation you are experiencing?

Fairly certain it is, yeah - astringency is a bit broader than I thought, but it smells of isopropanol (which is a common astringent), to be specific. I'm be no means a sophisticated taster (of anything, never much understood the notes people get off various cheeses, alochols, distillates, etc. - I do taste things, and have fairly confident opinions on them, but the conclusions I draw never seem to match the "experts").

What Kimbo said above, probably partly due to bad cuts.
Another thing to think about is that running a T500 by temp is the way that the manufacturer does it to make it seem simple to newbs and those who are to lazy or hopeless to learn to run a CM still any other way.
The temp is a rough guide only, The best way is to watch what effect different water flow settings have to the amount of distillate leaving the still.
More water flow = more reflux = less spirit leaving the still= purer and higher ABV.
Less water= Less reflux= more spirit leaving the spout= less purity and lower ABV.
I learned on one of those things.....the day I worked that out was a "ahhha moment" after that I started to get the best from that little still.
Pretty much disregard most of what you read in the "owners manual".
Aim for a very fast broken stream or the smallest thinnest constant stream you can get.......at that point your at about the best place you will get with that still........you can go slower , but you will also go nuts before the run is finished.
The fact that you pulled 92% tells me you were pretty close to the mark anyway.......92% temp corrected is about the best a stock standardT500 will do.
The single biggest thing you can do to improve your booze through that still will be to strip the washes first and then run the low wines......also swap from TPW to SSS.......you will see a big difference IMO.

Thanks Bill - go to know the actual distillation process appears to be on track for the most part. I went with birdwatchers because I'm impatient... and I could get everything at local stroes. I will get the DAP on order try SSS (I didn't look this up, but I'm presuming Shady's Suger Shine) next neutral run. I'm expecting a pot still head to arrive any day now, so I actually have gen1 UJSSM going right now.

@TheAlchemist, it looks like you tried to pick the transition between heads and hearts and hearts and tails on the fly. It takes keen senses and a bit of experience to be able to make those cuts on the fly. A little bit of heads in your hearts can ruin the whole batch. Tails my dissipate in a blend over time but heads never do. Best bet it to follow the multiple sample jar method and make your cuts after the samples have had a chance to sit for a while.

Fair - I didn't do it on the fly, I collected 300mL per jar (which in retrospect was, I think, too much (at least near the transition points). I definitely probably went tails heavy on my selection - to me (tasting them the next morning) the tails end seemed to get sweet (which immediately after collection seemed to be the smoothest sample of the lot), then go south. I took one 300mL jar of sweet towards the end, and dumped the final 500mL collected across 2 jars that I felt went south. I am now wondering if I should have left that 300mL out of my blend, and I am also certain I should have let them sit longer before tasting lol.

[TheAlchemist]

Recipe.

That’s my thoughts. And I’m sticking with it.

Why would you need to carbon filter a spirit you refluxed up to 92%ABV?
ss

Sorry - forgot to respond to this one. Well... I had the filters, and was told by an old head (in person) to do so, and since there was something I was unhappy with in the final product, I decided to try it. Also, 3 of us in my household tried it side by side, 2 of them (not me) blind. All of us preferred the filtered spirit.

[kimbodious]

I work on 300 ml samples when I think I am near the heads hearts and heads tails transitions.

Bill is spot on about putting your attention more on the rate of output of your product and less on the thermometer.

I didn’t read anything about controlling the heating power to the boiler? Is your boiler running at full power the whole time, that can make it difficult to get good separation of the fractions.

So far I have only done sugar washes. I prefer to use raw sugar, I found that using refined or white sugar gave my spirit a harsh chemical taste and greater burn.

I’d categorise heads as being tongue-curlingly drying and astringent. If I had to make an educated guess, I’d say that your spirit is smeared with heads (high purity) because the boiler was running too hard.

Have you thought about diluting the spirit and running it (as low wines) through your still again?

[Demy]

Probably as others have said it is a problem of cuts, I add that the newly prepared distillates have slightly pungent notes, all distillates benefit from a rest period to "round up the edges"

[TheAlchemist]

I work on 300 ml samples when I think I am near the heads hearts and heads tails transitions.

Bill is spot on about putting your attention more on the rate of output of your product and less on the thermometer.

I didn’t read anything about controlling the heating power to the boiler? Is your boiler running at full power the whole time, that can make it difficult to get good separation of the fractions.

So far I have only done sugar washes. I prefer to use raw sugar, I found that using refined or white sugar gave my spirit a harsh chemical taste and greater burn.

I’d categorise heads as being tongue-curlingly drying and astringent. If I had to make an educated guess, I’d say that your spirit is smeared with heads (high purity) because the boiler was running too hard.

Have you thought about diluting the spirit and running it (as low wines) through your still again?

Are you collecting 300mL near those transitions on a 5 gallon fermentation through a T500? But fair enough, I will do my next run focusing more on the output than the thermometer.

And I do have a controller on the way, but don't have it yet - so I have no option to turn the boiler down at the moment. I have seen some suggestions to use raw sugar, and plan to try it in the future, but I started with what is readily available (plain white table sugar). It didn't much cross my mind to re-run this batch, as from my readings, there isn't much point on a T500 - and also I would almost rather just call it all feints and move on to the next one (which I guess is effectively similar to what you suggested).

[TheAlchemist]

Probably as others have said it is a problem of cuts, I add that the newly prepared distillates have slightly pungent notes, all distillates benefit from a rest period to "round up the edges"

What kind of rest period would you typically suggest? Can it be done in sealed containers, or are you speaking more to leaving them uncovered for a period before blending?

[Demy]

Probably as others have said it is a problem of cuts, I add that the newly prepared distillates have slightly pungent notes, all distillates benefit from a rest period to "round up the edges"

What kind of rest period would you typically suggest? Can it be done in sealed containers, or are you speaking more to leaving them uncovered for a period before blending?

After distillation ... I discovered that even the neutral improves over time, to notice an effect must pass at least 1 month. Other "white" spirits require longer periods but is another topic. Just leave closed and possibly oxygenate every now and then and then close it again.

[Saltbush Bill]

It didn't much cross my mind to re-run this batch, as from my readings, there isn't much point on a T500 -

No matter what type of reflux still...they will all produce a much better spirit when running low wines rather than wash.

[TheAlchemist]

Interesting, well I guess I'll work on collecting up enough low wines to give it a try!

[howie]

all great advice above, as always.
personally i can't emphasize how important a power controller is.
even though you might be getting relatively good ABV, without one, there will be smearing all through your run.

[TheAlchemist]

Yeah, it makes sense - I mean, in general I have to assume more control is pretty much always better (so long as you can manage all of the aspects). As I said, I have a power controller on the way - the other thing I have considered on the first couple uses is added a split water supply to to T500 (separate supply for reflux and product condensers, each with their own needle valve). That is a project for another day though... one thing at a time, right?

[Saltbush Bill]

personally i can't emphasize how important a power controller is.
even though you might be getting relatively good ABV, without one, there will be smearing all through your run.

Howie are you talking from experience with a T500 there ?......my thought has always been that a T500 reflux still is pretty well suited to the boiler power they come with. They can easily achieve full reflux at full power......less power means less reflux imo. Yes a controller will be necessary if or when a pot still head is fitted to that boiler.

the other thing I have considered on the first couple uses is added a split water supply to to T500 (separate supply for reflux and product condensers, each with their own needle valve).

What is the reasoning behind that idea.......its not necessary or of any benefit on a T500 imo. They run fine with just the one valve and water plumbed as is.
On the carbon thing ...a lot of people here and elsewhere feel that using carbon is like polishing a turd. If the right wash is used , the right still and the right technique is used and the right cuts are made there is no need for carbon.....its an unnecessary step and an added cost.
Having said that many also believe that no matter how good the neutral is carbon will make it even better...............at the end of the day its your choice.
Personally I choose not to carbon filter .....to me part of the challenge / craft is being able to make a really good neutral without carbon filtering.

[Corn Cracker]

I am not a seasoned vet at this but, i find everytime i use table sugar i get that iso alchohol taste that I was thinking it was just the sugar (sugar bite). Try an all grain, i just did a honey bear bourbon that is INCREDIBLY smooth, hardly any alchohol burn, smell or taste at 100pr.

[The Baker]

The Alchemist said, ' to me (tasting them the next morning) the tails end seemed to get sweet (which immediately after collection seemed to be the smoothest sample of the lot), then go south.

From what I have read (and I THINK I have noticed it myself) there is a spot in the tails
called Sweet Water which is like you said.
And you might want to include that in the good stuff.
More knowledgeable people will probably expand on that.

Geoff

[Saltbush Bill]

Sweet water is deep deep tails....way after the wet dog has gone.

[TheAlchemist]

the other thing I have considered on the first couple uses is added a split water supply to to T500 (separate supply for reflux and product condensers, each with their own needle valve).

What is the reasoning behind that idea.......its not necessary or of any benefit on a T500 imo. They run fine with just the one valve and water plumbed as is.

Not that I've put a ton of thought into it, but as I said in that post, the reasoning is essentially that more control is better, so long as the system does not become so complex that it is unmanageable. I'll certainly trust you if you say it's not worth my time though.

Sweet water is deep deep tails....way after the wet dog has gone.

So, obviously I'm new to this, i got a whiff of what I thought was perhaps the wet dog/soggy cardboard - i've broken my nose about 15 times so the ole sniffer isn't my strong suit - and this was the subsequent jar (i.e. i tossed 300mL before this, and at least 300mL after this... i should have taken notes on that bit as well probably, whoops, got lazy/excited towards the end)

[Saltbush Bill]

Seeing as how at this stage you are trying to make a Vodka / Neutral type spirit using a T500 anything other than hearts is irrelevant, and will just further confuse you. If it doesn't smell clean you don't want it in your final cut. It takes time and experience for your nose and taste buds to adjust to the different smells and flavours.
Don't expect to get it perfect first time round .....or maybe in the first half dozen runs.......but you will slowly get better at it.

[Yummyrum]

My brother in law uses a T500 .I’ve tried to get him to have a go at separating into cuts jars but he doesn’t get it .
All his booze has the horrid Astringent tongue curling ,mouth puckering concentrated tails in it .

He simply goes too far . He says he’s inly following the instructions and shuts off when some temperature thing changes .

Anyway , my point is that tails in a pot still may taste like damp dog and wet cardboard and a whole lot of other not so pleasant earthy smells , but when they are concentrated in a reflux still , they no longer resemble that . Nasty Astringent is in my mind bang on the money .


And this bit of wiki may help

Astringent is a taste that puckers the mouth, numbs the tongue, and constricts the throat. This taste is caused by astringents such as tannins. Unlike other tastes astringency is not perceived via taste receptors but is a tactile sensation caused by the aggregation of saliva proteins. Wikipedia

[TheAlchemist]

Okay, so I've gone ahead an done another run - same recipe and all. I did take SBB's advice and I ran quite a bit hotter, getting as close to an unbroken stream as I could. I left everything out for a full 24 hours before tasting any of it (all collected into 300mL cuts, for a total of 1800mL after tossing fores). When I went to taste and smell it the next day, as far as I could tell, I've ended up with 300mL that are pure and clean as can be, and another 300mL with only a slight hint of burn on the tongue/ethyl acetate smell. I would say that adding anything else would definitely degrade those 2 jars.

So my question is - to anyone who uses a T500, is this what one might expect to get out of the hearts on this still (at least with a novice at the helm)? At worst 16.7% of the total distillate, at best maybe 40%, had I been able to make the cuts on the fly?

40% seems like a reasonable amount, that would be in the neighborhood of 1500mL once it's proofed down to 40% ABV (final product yield from a 5 gallon wash)

For context, I didn't take a proof measurement, just a tasting for the data points. I collected it all as low wines and plan to proof it down re-distill once I have enough to do so.

[Yummyrum]

Sounds wrong to me . You should have a much better keeper rate than that .
What you’re describing is almost as bad if not worse than a Pot still run .

[TheAlchemist]

interesting, good to know. well, that was the same birdwatchers recipe as the initial post. i’ll be able to do a gen 1 UJSSM before the end of the weekend, and we will see if the yield comes out a bit better, i suppose.