Large oil/steam jacketed boiler questions

[Malthead247]

Hello! I am looking to upgrade my equipment and would love the ability to distill on the grain.
I am looking at importing something like this:
https://tinyurl.com/2bk3zdkv or https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002351416136.html

The thing I am not certain about is the ability to run these as oil jacketed boilers. They are 'steam jacketed', but does this just mean that it is an double walled vessel that is heated with immersion elements? So it would be possible to run oil?

Any advice, thoughts, and suggestions around this specific equipment is hugely appreciated!

[Deplorable]

I've been schooled by the masters here that steam is best. It will react faster to power inputs, and be easier to master. Also easier to deal with water than many gallons of oil when it comes to maintenance.

[Malthead247]

Makes sense, although I imagine a steam generator would be required for this.
For me, working with oil and not requiring something to create steam would be fantastic.
Also- can the equipment I have listed be used for oil?

Thanks!

[Deplorable]

You fill the jacket to the proper level to keep the elements submerged in water while its making steam. You don't need a separate steam generator.
Thats a sexy still by the way, but unless you have a DSP, you'll have to limit your discussions to hobby size stills of 30 gallons or less. A 250L boiler is more than double the size limit allowed on here.

[Malthead247]

No kidding! That is amazing, why is that not more common than using oil? I dont see the benefits of using oil if they both use the same basic principle.

Cheers!

[shadylane]

can the equipment I have listed be used for oil?

That's a question you need to ask the manufacturer.

I prefer to use water in the steam jacket, instead of oil.
Water is cheaper than oil and doesn't burn or deteriorate

Plus the jacket can used as a wort chiller by draining and filling with cold water.

[morefog]

I've been schooled by the masters here that steam is best. It will react faster to power inputs, and be easier to master. Also easier to deal with water than many gallons of oil when it comes to maintenance.

I've had the opposite experience. Using steam was a nightmare for temperature control, but I was using an indirect fired gas steam boiler. Maybe an electric element one could react faster.

When my steam went on the fritz I played with hot water. Under pressure I am running 250F water through my jacket. Much easier to control the heat, but I still haven't mastered it.

One other point. Steam is dangerous. Be careful.

[shadylane]

When my steam went on the fritz I played with hot water. Under pressure I am running 250F water through my jacket. Much easier to control the heat, but I still haven't mastered it.

One other point. Steam is dangerous. Be careful.

Water that's under enough pressure not to boil at 250F is also dangerous.
A loss of pressure could lead to an instant steam explosion.

[stillanoob]

Seems like a glycol solution would work. A 10% ABV solution boils at something like 195f, right? With water boiling at 212f the delta-T is too close for good heat transfer. I have been thinking about some kind of bath for my still because I want to make slivovitz with the pulp and stones in next year. Obviously the larger the volume in the bath the slower the response time to power input changes. So as small a bath as possible and creep up to temp? I'd be using direct fire.

[NZChris]

've had the opposite experience. Using steam was a nightmare for temperature control, but I was using an indirect fired gas steam boiler. Maybe an electric element one could react faster.

Where in the still were you trying to control temperature?

I wouldn't assume that 15psi boiling water was safer than steam. Have you ever witnessed a blowout at that pressure?

[Saltbush Bill]

Water that's under enough pressure not to boil at 250F is also dangerous.
A loss of pressure could lead to an instant steam explosion.

I wouldn't assume that 15psi boiling water was safer than steam. Have you ever witnessed a blowout at that pressure?

I agree with the two above posts, my understanding of steam operation is little , but from what I have read about it from time to time you are playing with fire. Super Heated Steam is not to be trifled with.

[Sporacle]

+1 With Bill and Chris
Ask anyone who works with hot things, steam is generally at the very top of things that will cause damage very very quickly. The ability to create it is simple, the plumbing and heating mediums are readily available. The ability to control the massive thermal expansion is very rarely considered. There's a reason you can power a train with it

[LWTCS]

Hello! I am looking to upgrade my equipment and would love the ability to distill on the grain.
I am looking at importing something like this:
https://tinyurl.com/2bk3zdkv or https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002351416136.html

The thing I am not certain about is the ability to run these as oil jacketed boilers. They are 'steam jacketed', but does this just mean that it is an double walled vessel that is heated with immersion elements? So it would be possible to run oil?



Any advice, thoughts, and suggestions around this specific equipment is hugely appreciated!

The first link appears to be a copy cat design I am very familiar with and since moved away from for a more efficient version. This design does however have a pair of dedicated reservoirs for water.

The second link doesn't show enough visual info to know weather or not there is a dedicated reservoir. For water use you need the reservoir. A couple of element ports plopped in the jacket only works well enough with oil.

Once brought to temp, oil is very efficient to maintain temps. But no adjustment ability at all.

If designed correctly, the ability to control heat input is far superior with water. Even more so than a closed (Hartford) loop steam system.
3mm wall thickness on the jacket is just not going to have a catastrophic failure with low pressure steam.

[LWTCS]

High / Low pressure adjustment on a traditional steam boiler for distilling is set around 2 to 3 psi apart. The gap creates an interruption making for wonkier heat input control.
Keeping High / Low adjustment as close as possible helps minimize this otherwise undesirable behavior.
That kind of boiler cycling does not occur with electric elements installed into a more self contained type of system. This makes heat input adjustments more precise.

I can't say why Shady had issues?

[LWTCS]

Ah this one here is steam input only.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002351416136.html

[morefog]

've had the opposite experience. Using steam was a nightmare for temperature control, but I was using an indirect fired gas steam boiler. Maybe an electric element one could react faster.

Where in the still were you trying to control temperature?

I wouldn't assume that 15psi boiling water was safer than steam. Have you ever witnessed a blowout at that pressure?

Close, I saw a blow out of some lower temperature where the alcohol vapors flash boiled when the still failed. That was on a steam powered unit into a still designed without the proper understanding of thermodynamics and the raw power of steam. Pumping in 400F steam into a jacket displaced far too much heat into a wash with insufficient cooling and a host of other design flaws that would have worked fine at a reasonable amount of heat. Steam is inherently more dangerous than water in my book because you can't cool it fast enough nor control it fine enough. It comes on like a hammer. I'm sure a properly designed and sized commercial steam jacketed vessel heated with steam is up to the task. I would advise against it for the hobbyist. YMMV.

My current system is making hot water, never hot alcohol at these temps, so any flash-boil failure should generate much less steam before it cools. The 250F is max when the boiler system overshoots the 240F set point due to insufficient heat radiation into an already hot mash. As for 250F water, that would be on for maybe 20-30 minutes to bring the wash up to temp and deviates between 235F-250F as the boiler kicks on and off. The system is tested and capable of this, but unless I was trying to indirect heat a stem generator, I like to keep it down to 210F-225F, maybe 230F. It feels safer even though my system components are rated for 250F and has been tested to handle it. After this conversion I'll see if I can scale it back some more. As you say, at these temps a failure would be catastrophic to human health, but I still consider it safer than a propane burner. YMMV.

Many people have a saying, Be discrete, Don't tell, Don't sell. Be Safe is at the top of my list. There is always danger, but I've done everything I can to mitigate that danger and continuously seek new ways of doing so.

Does anyone have a plan for what to do should a cooling pump quietly fail?

[LWTCS]

Does anyone have a plan for what to do should a cooling pump quietly fail?

Warning alarm can be incorporated into the controller with a micro switch to kill heat input.

Also there is no substitute for never ever walking away from a still in operation.

Steam is a very common tool used in so many industries. And has been for a very long time. It's not for amateur users to be sure.

[morefog]

Does anyone have a plan for what to do should a cooling pump quietly fail?
Also there is no substitute for never ever walking away from a still in operation.

Steam is a very common tool used in so many industries. And has been for a very long time. It's not for amateur users to be sure.

Sans a bathroom break or changing cooling water I'm always with the still. If I'm ever going to leave the area I turn off the heat.

I used steam safely for years to boil beer, but distilling is not boiling beer. Steam heating use of anything larger than tiny is not for amateurs or hobbyist. Apologies to experienced or commercial uses using steam safely, but new distillers should just move along. Learning from your mistakes can be painful with steam.

So the key points are:
Safety First
Don't walk away from the still
Amateurs and hobbyists would do well to avoid heating with steam in anything larger than tiny amounts

[NZChris]

If my cooling water isn’t doing the job for any reason, the power goes off the element. Because I’m not using a water jacket, the still stops producing immediately.

[morefog]

If my cooling water isn’t doing the job for any reason, the power goes off the element. Because I’m not using a water jacket, the still stops producing immediately.

Great. How?

[NZChris]

I have a latched relay switching the power to the element. A thermostat measuring the condensate temperature switches the power off if any event causes the condensate temperature to go over the set point. The still can't be restarted until the temperature drops below the set point.

[shadylane]

I can't say why Shady had issues?

Because I had a brain fart and forgot the OP was talking about a store bought "Large oil/steam jacketed boiler"
I was thinking homemade high pressure

[shadylane]

I have a latched relay switching the power to the element. A thermostat measuring the condensate temperature switches the power off if any event causes the condensate temperature to go over the set point. The still can't be restarted until the temperature drops below the set point.

I use a latched relay also.
The safety circuit even has a timer, just in case.

[Yummyrum]

Even engineers and boilermakers can have bad days .

I’m not very brave.

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[LWTCS]

Even engineers and boilermakers can have bad days .

I’m not very brave.

9F9748B5-81EF-4472-AD2E-BB7EF710B69C.jpegF5AC4325-9F67-4CB0-9AD3-39C7E3FDA753.jpeg

Yeah dude, not trying to minimize the dangers of low pressure steam,,,,,but that ain't 15 psi damage in them pics.

[Ben]

Could certainly use a radiator cap and a diversion tube for a mechanical 15 psi safety. There are caps available in a wide variety of pressure ranges, meaning you could quickly change it as needed. At least that will send the steam in a safe direction. And you will immediately know if you have fucked up, without loss of life or limb.

[hypnopooper]

I have the same steam boiler unit in the first picture on post 1, however, mine is certainly not 350L in size though. The unit It's rated at 1 bar. As others have said fill up to ensure the elements stay covered in liquid and you have a low pressure cooker that can handle on the grain. The biggest issue you will need to realize is that the boiler unit in the picture is not your final price.

1. You will need to also invest time or money in a good element power controller. I got mine, a 50A control panel from Auber Instruments to handle up to 11k watts in power. That was about $900 in costs.
2. There was no power cables to the element from the panel included so I had to make those so factor in about $150-$200 for some good 8/3 and 6/4 600v conductor cords for element power and controller power. I also upgraded the cheap Chinese elements to camco 5500 water heater elements.
3. You have to wire in to a breaker box. I put in a 60A breaker in my shop to power the unit, the price of proper sized copper 4 line wire to the box plus conduit and whatever code requirements should be kept in mind. Electric work isn't cheap, so I did my own homework and learned how to put in the breaker myself. For me, the really hard part was running the copper wire bundle through the conduit to ensure that the 60A power lines are properly protected. If I had to do it over again. I would have just added a 60A plug receptacle 2 feet from the breaker box in the shop and used a detachable ruggedized 6/4 extension cord that I could un-roll/roll-up when not in use. You live and learn, but I was concerned on future code and proper safety for 60A worth of power. I'd figure if you have to pay an electrician, about 2-3K in work, but only about $400-$500 in materials.
5. Delivery time...I ordered in November 2019 built to spec, I didn't get delivery until June 2021. Tracking was a bitch for freight from china until it hit the dock of a Freight company but scheduling a delivery for such a big crate can be a tad bit of inconvenience because it's pretty much the freight truckers schedule that counts not yours.

My prices are from early 2020, figure in cost changes on materials and workmanship Best of luck.

[morefog]

I have a latched relay switching the power to the element. A thermostat measuring the condensate temperature switches the power off if any event causes the condensate temperature to go over the set point. The still can't be restarted until the temperature drops below the set point.

That's what I figured. I'm trying to do the same but my cooling interferes (I suspect) with getting a proper read on the distillate temp as any temperature reading may be influenced by the cooling coils. The cooling coils go all the way to the bottom where the liquid comes out without an option to raise it. I just found an affordable tri-clamp thermowell that puts a thermowell close to the bottom of the cooling coils, where there is more distillate and less coil. With a little trial and error I think I can get that to work nicely. But I don't have that yet so I'll have to figure out a way with my existing equipment to measure the distillate temperature.

Drat, looking at the picture again I don't think the termowell I got is going to fit, and if it does it will definitely be in direct contact with the coiling coil. Not going to work. And I was so excited.

A thought I had just today is for a stripping run the temperature at the top of the column doesn't seem to matter as long as the distillate at the bottom is cooled sufficiently and the abv is still worth the effort. Is that wrong headed?

[Sporacle]

Am I missing something or could you just take the temp of the distillate with a digital probe in your collection vessel

[NZChris]

Am I missing something or could you just take the temp of the distillate with a digital probe in your collection vessel

It's better to put a probe on the spout so that a temperature rise is detected earlier.