Help needed

[Northsouth]

Done a bit more "learning" lately, and thought I'd share, and possibly learn something in the process.

Just to set the scene, this is my new "workshop", a sawed of pallet made into an "L" on top of a 19EUR table, most of my tools are in the picture. It is outdoors on a small backyard porch and needs to be portable, due to certain "guidelines" from my better half.

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Before I had soaked in any of:

this: viewtopic.php?f=65&t=20655
this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14559&start=0&hilit=Winding+a+coil
this: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=11554

and a number of other excellent posts, I just went on Amazon, got what I thought was needed, and 10 min after arriving at the door, I had done this:

20211220_203819 (Small).jpg

Moderate chuckles allowed...

It turns out it was 2 m of ID 4mm OD 6mm. To make things worse, it also turned out I had ordered this twice, so now I have the wreck you see on the photo, and another 2m. Not sure how to connect them, nor straighten out the first one. Thought I could give it a little annealing, possibly with the help of my grill, the propane torch seems to be too weak, is that really stupid? (Maybe better to leave that unanswered, on second thought..) It will anyway be very thin for an aquarium pump to that height, I believe.

Second attempt:

I read this: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=41579&hilit=controlled

and another multiple posts, then ordered some corrugated SS tubing from China. And that is where things went out of hand for me. I tried to make a (kind of) coldfinger with an inlet and outlet on top (sort of like a half Liebig), then double wound with the SS, packing between layer 1 and 2, 10 meters (!), 6-8 mm line.

Upon pressure testing, the solder connections held, but the tubing itself was leaking everywhere. Think (or hope) it was not meant for gas, most likely got the wrong stuff, too small diameter, and abused it too much when trying to give birth to the mother of all long and thin coils.

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As you can see further up in this chain, the top pipe in my CCVM is rather long, and I wanted to go 500mm in and still have some coil left at the top opening (have read here that you need to go past the T), maybe stretch the coils out a bit. The idea was also to have a more linear control of the takeoff.

Third attempt:
Tried to figure out what the ..1/4" inch means. I work in mm (that's what she said..). Found some tables around on the web, but I seem not to be able to crack the code. What is 1/4 inch for Copper tubing, what is the diameter on the inside and outside?

Also found this:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49354&p=7215273&hil ... e#p7215273

But that really does not help if you don't know what you are getting exactly, it is not clear to me. I see some are using AC tubing and removing insulation, is that ok, for example?

Then, out of fear of running out of things to work on, I ordered some 1/4" tubing, and the intention was to follow above instructions + fill with salt just to not mess this up even more, but now realize what I have ordered is "brake line" tubing, copper nickel 1/4". Indications on this forum are that this is a no-go due to the alloys, did I get that right?


Forth approach:

Now I am getting really creative. It turns out I enjoy joining pieces of copper with soldering. It is backwards at times, since too much heat nearby tampers with the work already done, but it feels great when it works. What if I forget about the coil completely? It is costing a fortune, and takes forever to receive, weeks for every mess-up. I also now have plenty of scrap. What if I piece together a Frankenstein-coil, kind of like a multi-story open sided dephlegmator to get the needed surface area? Have anyone seen/done anything like that?

[Oatmeal]

Shadylane did a dephlag comparison , but I think you want just a basic coil to run your ccvm.

Something like a gas flex connector should be pretty universal. They might have them at a local hardware store. About 2 meters should suffice. Just don't get one coated with yellow, and ensure it's stainless steel.

[greggn]

Now I am getting really creative.

That's not always a good thing. The spool above your T appears at least twice as long as it needs to be which, in turn, is making your RC about three times as long as it needs to be.

I hope you either have really tall ceilings or are planning to run outdoors.

[Northsouth]

Now I am getting really creative.

That's not always a good thing. The spool above your T appears at least twice as long as it needs to be which, in turn, is making your RC about three times as long as it needs to be.

I hope you either have really tall ceilings or are planning to run outdoors.

I see your point about the spool. Have a certain obsession about not getting ethanol vapor over the top, some houses in my old country were lifted off the foundation as a consequence of that. Anyway, it will also be outdoors, have 3.5 m to play with on the porch. Think I will make a single wind with coldfinger.

[Northsouth]

So in the end, after almost giving up on the coils and doing something like an insert dephleg, I finally found a place around here that sell copper tubing without insulation. Untill now, the procedure was to order it online, wait for 2 weeks, fail, then order again. It was a 3/8, and after various attempt, I now have a kinked, dented, scratched, but functional, coil. With the water pressure around here, I can easily push through 5-10 l/minute, so it should be overkill. Another thing that is overkill is the length of it. It is about 480 mm long, single wind with coldfinger pipe in centre. Will probably make a nicer looking one at a later stage, but this shall do for now. As Greggn pointed out, the top piping is way longer than needed, but at least I will now have some guarantee that there will not be ethanol flowing over the top. The handle on top will be used to a future attachment to move up and down without climbing a ladder. I have 3.5 m to play with, so height is (with current ambitions) not an issue.

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[Northsouth]

Well, I finally got my pot on the CCVM 2", and have been doing the vinegar run, water run, and sacrificial run. Also have started a sugar mesh, but the eagerness got the best of me, and I bought 40 l of cheap wine and ran 2 stripping runs and one spirit run. Stripping came out at a steady 90+ABV. Diluted down to 15 ABV, queezed in 2 more rolls of copper mesh, a total of 1.2 m packing, and went for the spirit run.

Ran slowly, and got 94-96 ABV readings (even 97 for a while) the first hours (drop per second), then it went gradually down to 86 where it more or less stopped. Different combination of more-less heat and more-less reflux (positions of coil) were tried, but nothing came out.

After cooling down, I tried to measure the ABV of remains in the pot, but it was not possible to measure, close to 0.

Despite the high ABV, there are clearly tails in the last jars, but could not distinct heads (tossed 200 ml as foreshot on all runs).

The hearts are very neutral.

I guess the question is, are all these observations more or less coinciding with your experience?

[still_stirrin]

… Ran slowly, and got 94-96 ABV readings … the first hours, then it went gradually down to 86 where it more or less stopped. Different combination of more-less heat and more-less reflux (positions of coil) were tried, but nothing came out … Despite the high ABV, there are clearly tails in the last jars, but could not distinct heads (tossed 200 ml as foreshot on all runs). <— This is the way a vapor managed reflux still works. It’ll hold a high %ABV until you’ve scavenged all of the alcohol from the boiler and then it just quits producing. You won’t get much of a tail off of %ABV even as you approach the backend, so be sure to collect into smaller jars so you can make good cuts when blending.

I guess the question is, are all these observations more or less coinciding with your experience? <— It’s your run, so that’s what matters. What anybody else “thinks” about what you’ve observed doesn’t really matter, does it? You got what you got! Are you just looking for “approval”? You don’t need it, obviously.

Bear in mind that high proof/high purity is not the “measure of success” as a hobby distiller. Sure, high purity is good for making spirits that use a neutral base. And we’ve all driven our reflux stillheads to the highest point at times just to see if we can and what we’ll get. As you’ve noticed, you have an understanding of the “potential” of your equipment to produce high purity product. Now the challenge is to figure out how that capability fits into your utility.

But be careful with high purity spirits because the ethanol at that strength is dangerous to tissue and your health. If you store it at a high purity, make sure it can’t get inadvertently mixed into your “drinkin’ liquor”. “Safe, RESPONSIBLE, and discrete”, remember?
ss

[Northsouth]

Thanks ss.

In some way, I needed a bit of approval, actually. Many of us are quite alone in this hobby, guess it has to do with the "discrete", part. Even if it is not directly illegal (in this country), it does not mean that everyone will understand or approve. Once on the table in a nice looking bottle, getting approval might be easier. Perhaps it is a bit like with meat, no-one wants to go to a slaughterhouse to find out how it is prepared..

As for grade, I hear you. To me, getting a 95+ was a milestone to get to "Vodka-grade", since Vodka is how I understood and appreciated high grade alcohol first (and still enjoy). I see it as a starting point, something like going full throttle first to test out the gear and see that it can, then ease up on the gas.

This batch (except one diluted bottle) has been handed over to the kitchen department of the production line now, already sitting in 3 jars, one with citric fruit (lime and kumquat), one with coffee and one with herbs.

N&S

[Northsouth]

Hi all. So I made a deplag 200 mm and a 2" 500 mm column this past weeks. Also bought a 350 mm borosilic glass thingy and did the 3 cleaning runs. Wanted to test putting my 2" 1200 mm and the new 500 mm columns in line with the new deplag, until now I'd did that with the 1200mm and ccvm. No dice. It flods to a degree that there is no sweet spot point that give any meaning. Yes. I did read, stop it! But it can maybe serve as one more point of reference here. Too high column fully packed will not make the neutral Vodka that we look for. Filtering I think. Sorry to say the F-word.

[NormandieStill]

If you refluxed it, simply throw it back into the boiler with some more water to clean it up further and run again. It'll probably be considerably faster than filtering it properly.

[Northsouth]

Thanks again Normandie for 3rd time helping out!
The idea that I played with lately is the following. What if, on the voyage of perfect Vodka, you destill at + 90 first time, AND take conservative cuts. Filter heads, & hearts, and then make a second run with both. Did both the bw and the ffv and they both had that yeist, sugar component, Just did that, first run with 3" glass column and fitting, all packed almost 800 mm at 88-90 %, then for a second time as mentioned. Is this the way to clean Vodka without having to do a third? Note: second time, I used my 2" 1,2 m packed (copper mesh) column.
I am liking the result now myself. But should I run it again? Might be even better? Like the light sugar and grain taste already, but it ain't like for example Swedish Absolute Vodka.

[NZChris]

There should be copper in the boiler. Many newbies miss that and pass on the misinformation that copper in the vapor path is enough.

With enough distillations, you should be able to make a usable neutral with Birdwatchers, but it will never be a vodka to be proud of.

Vodka does need some flavor, so don't confuse it with neutral and try to make neutral using Vodka methods like TFFV. I'd hazard a wild guess that Absolut aren't using Tomato paste or wheat bran. If you can find out what they are using, you will be able to get closer to replicating their products.

[Northsouth]

I hear you! Howewer, nobody in this forum really wants to talk about Vodka. Is this the elephant in the room? I just want someone to tell me m how! Is this worth a separate topic? What is Vodka? How can it be done to a level where it is admirable?

[greggn]

What is Vodka? How can it be done to a level where it is admirable?

As NZChris said, research the source grains used by vodka producers whose products you most enjoy. With few exceptions they use either wheat, rye, or corn.

I got into this hobby with the hope of being able to make a vodka comparable to my favorites: Ketel One and Belvedere
Happily, I've been able to achieve (and surpass) that goal. I make a premium product using a variety of grains and I marvel at the ability to taste and smell the subtle differences between them.

If your still is capable, then the basic workflow of creating a clean ferment, executing a strip run, and then a spirit run will get you there.

[squigglefunk]

to make a good vodka I would start with maybe a rice or wheat based mash and distil at least three times through a pot still - I think there is some vodka based recipes in the TnT section but I really don't think a good vodka recipe will have any sugar in the wash

[Northsouth]

Just read an article about Vodka, and I think I now start to see why it is so confusing. Really, it is everything and nothing. A spirit distilled at 95,3% based on anything, if I understand the definition. But there must be some taste, otherwise it is just a neutral.

At the same time I have close family that worked in a large scale distillery where the input is fermented residuals of sugar production, and according to what they tell me, they shipped 96% neutral to some of these manufacturers that tell romantic marketing stories of harvested wheat with morning due drops on it. I think a lot of it is BS, they add flavour after distilling.

[Northsouth]

I hope to contribute soon to this forum. My angle will be (not that I need an angle, but that is my quest), the process of entering this forum and then do a f. great Vodka. This forum really needs that.

[Northsouth]

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Well. Six months on here., or about. Made my 2" CCVM, 1.2 m, (after having started with a Chinese pot still, rebuilt to a CM 0.75" 0.45m for fun), then a 3" borasilic glass 300mm +. Have also made 2 bubble plates in copper with borosilic glass just for the pleasure of it. My weak spot is the ferment itself. Have only advanced to simple Birdwatchers and FFV. (Still sugar mesh). But I like that sugary touch, reminds me of my youth.
Now to the point.
I am trying to do SPP myself, but only get 0.8 mm around here. Have combined 2" 3" at the moment. Made SPP of 0,8 diameter 5mm (ish). See photos. With this, after doing approx a pound, should I go for the rest? (Next 6 pounds)? Is this SPP? It is 5mm diameter (uncut yet), but I only get 0,8 mm around here. That means it is stiffer than the 0.023", and I get only 30 deg angles. My question is; can I call this SPP? Will it work?

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[Oatmeal]

Well, why not give it a try? How much packing height does a pound give you? Run a cornflakes whiskey and take a narrow cut - 400ish mm of packing? Should give you roughly 4 theoretical plates....

(Do we need an intervention? You're already making your own SSP!)

[Oatmeal]

Sorry, I'm bad at metric. 40 centimeters is more appropriate way of saying that.

[Northsouth]

Thanks Oatmeal, I will try whatever I end up producing. But it is a LOT of work, since this will be cut manually. It is a one time effort, but I just want to get it right from the start. From the Krell book, it looks within reasonable parameters being < less than 1/10 Diameter of column, but the thickness and the shape is somewhat different from other pictures I have seen on here. DAD300 once said that never mind the shape, all is 3-6 times better than SS packing. However, when someone showed cylindrical SPP, he also said that to just cut piping instead. That would be rashing rings that have less HEPT than SPP. So what is needed to convert a Rashing ring into SPP, I guess is the question.

[Northsouth]

Ok. You burn everyone for not reading. I'm a drunk as well so that's ok. But now what?

[Northsouth]

So drinking and posting. Sorry for comment. I guess i need an intervention, this hobby occupies 100% of my available grey matter space now