Advice - Off flavor or how its supposed to be

[Tirefryer426]

So the short version up front. My distillate ends up having a flavor that i don't think is supposed to be there. I can't place it, it almost tastes like a weak cinnamon type flavor. I have a friend that brews, he says it reminds him of butyric acid. My area of focus has been honey bears bourbon, but I've made a few other things as well. Originally posted in that thread, but have since worked out that its not recipe specific. The flavor ages out in a barrel pretty well. I did a 7 month age in a 2.5 gallon barrel, and it wasn't bad. I will say the higher the proof, the less obvious the taste. If I proof down, it starts to become more prevalent. So I want to lay out the equipment I use, and what my process is, and maybe someone point out whats going on.

I'm using a 5 gallon copper still kit from clawhammer with 120v heating element and PID.
My mashing and fermenting equipment is pretty basic. I use 6.5 gallon buckets from northern brewer. I have inkbird temp controllers and heating wraps that I use for temp control during fermentation. I put a layer of insulation around the buckets and they sit on insulated pads.

I follow the method in the HBB recipe to the letter.
I use flaked corn, so I don't gelatinize. My conversions are good. Iodine tests come up clear. Gravities are good. My ph levels after chilling with an immersion chiller to pitch temp (90f) is 5.6 plus or minus generally. I'm generally getting 1.065 +- .003 on every bucket I do. My last attempt I fermented down to .995 ish. I don't use any backset or any leftovers of any kind in my mashes. I always start clean.

I've tried:
Different water sources. DI water, distilled water, tap water (we have good water with no chlorine). No difference
I primarily use redstar DADY. But I've also tried fleischmans and sebstar specialty yeast for corn. No difference there.
I've tried not aerating the mash before pitching. I've also aerated lightly. (drill with a paint stirrer for about 1 minute). And a bit more heavily.
When my ferments are done (5-7 days) i strain the grain. I used to just run with the sediment in it, now I let the buckets sit for 2-3 days and I rack leaving the sediment. Thought maybe I was scorching. didn't notice much of a difference.
I've tried various fermenting temperatures. DADY says it likes 90f. I've done 90, 85, 80, 75.
Thought maybe the still was the issue. It was cleaned properly before running. ie vinegar bath, vinegar run, sacraficial sugar run. I built a new condenser for the still because the clawhammer one has blind spots that you can't really see or clean easily. Did a thorough tomato paste cleaning and scrub down on the still before my latest run. Still getting the flavor.
I've tried dramatically slowing down my runs. I'm now stripping on 30% power. I do my second distillation at about the same. I try to adjust it so that I'm collecting 1 liter per hour on a 1 3/4" column.
I also let my heads steam off a little bit to clean out the column and condenser. The clawhammer kit uses a liebig condenser.

I mentioned butyric acid earlier - but that shouldn't really be a problem. I think my sanitation protocols are good. I wash and starsan my buckets, lids, airlocks. I run a boil in my mash tun with my chiller in it, starsan after the boil. My mashes aren't left to sit. After I strain the grain, they get 2-3 days then I start running them. So a maximum of 6 days a bucket could sit. Sealed with a lid.

I do what I think is a pretty standard middle cut. I do 250ml collections and blend off those. I just find where the tails start, where the heads have faded out, and blend everything in the middle. I'll end up with a gallon from a 5 gallon run of around 35% low wines. I'm usually right at 125 proof on the honey bourbon after blending.

Only thing I can really work out is that maybe my ph's aren't where they need to be. Or that there is something wrong with the still. I haven't done a run under reflux in a while, but I seem to recall that it came out clean. So I can try running a sugar wash to see what happens there.

Appreciate anyone that actually read this, and definitely appreciate any advice. I didn't want to come in here without really trying to sort it out for myself.

[Dancing4dan]

You are using a PID for a element controller. PIDs have the potential to rapidly cycle the element on and off. This can cause a smearing of heads / hearts / tails.

Are you doing strip and spirit runs?

[Tirefryer426]

You are using a PID for a element controller. PIDs have the potential to rapidly cycle the element on and off. This can cause a smearing of heads / hearts / tails.

Are you doing strip and spirit runs?

Is there any way to mitigate that? I was hoping with having the element low in the boiler and running it fairly low power it would be ok. But I do see your point and how it would do that.

And yes, I'm doing a strips and a spirit run. I used to run my strips fairly wide open, but I've dialed it back quite a bit chasing this issue down.
Distillate I end up with in the spirit run is always crystal clear. I don't do any charcoal filtering. I've thought about trying it.

[Dancing4dan]

Post a picture of your still

[still_stirrin]

A spicy (cinnamon-like) flavor is typically associated with phenols. Is there something in the honey bear bourbon recipe that would contribute to the spiciness? Certainly, the use of rye malt will add a spicy note. Other grains which might add “spice” would be the melanoid malt or even a Vienna malt or a toasted malt.

But another source of phenols in a ferment can come from bacteria associated with a slow start of fermentation or inadequate inoculation of yeast. Do you aerate the wort before pitching yeast? If not, that could make conditions ripe for an early bacterial foothold.

The worst phenols in a ferment, chlorophenols, are remnants of chlorine sanitizer, or possibly chlorinated brew water. But chlorophenols are very distinct tasting and would be very objectionable —> YUK! (think —> bandaid or plastic taste)

However, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. If you continue to get the same taste in your product, consider what you’re doing THE SAME every time. Perhaps the spiciness you’re getting is really a product of the recipe you’re following and there is nothing WRONG. Maybe you just need to adjust your paradigm.
ss

[NZChris]

Is the flavor prominent in any particular jars? Early? Late?

Butyric acid smells like vomit and easily noticed and identified, so I doubt it's that.

What sealing materials are you using?

Smell your fermenters.

[Tirefryer426]

Post a picture of your still

Here it is. Its a 5 gallon clawhammer kit. I've only modified the condenser to bring it out a little further and I put threaded connectors on it so it can be dismantled and cleaned. Its this kit - https://www.clawhammersupply.com/products/5-gallon-kit
Pictures of mine.

[Tirefryer426]

A spicy (cinnamon-like) flavor is typically associated with phenols. Is there something in the honey bear bourbon recipe that would contribute to the spiciness? Certainly, the use of rye malt will add a spicy note. Other grains which might add “spice” would be the melanoid malt or even a Vienna malt or a toasted malt.

But another source of phenols in a ferment can come from bacteria associated with a slow start of fermentation or inadequate inoculation of yeast. Do you aerate the wort before pitching yeast? If not, that could make conditions ripe for an early bacterial foothold.

The worst phenols in a ferment, chlorophenols, are remnants of chlorine sanitizer, or possibly chlorinated brew water. But chlorophenols are very distinct tasting and would be very objectionable —> YUK! (think —> bandaid or plastic taste)

However, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. If you continue to get the same taste in your product, consider what you’re doing THE SAME every time. Perhaps the spiciness you’re getting is really a product of the recipe you’re following and there is nothing WRONG. Maybe you just need to adjust your paradigm.
ss

I don't think there is anything in there that should be overly spicy. There isn't any rye. Its corn, honey malt, pale malt, red wheat malt, and white wheat malt.

I have done runs with heavy aeration, light, and no aeration. My yeast take off never seems to be an issue. I've got a cap within around 4 hours whether I aerate or not. The last run I did zero aeration, yeast take off was still pretty quick, but my cap wasn't as thick as usual. That run did ferment from 1.065 down to .995 in 6 days. I also use an immersion chiller so that after I complete my starch conversion rest I'm not letting the buckets sit overnight or anything to cool to pitch temp. My understanding is that can cause the ph to drift a bit and also provides an opportunity for bacteria to get a solid head start. I don't *think* i'm doing anything wrong there. But I fully admit I could be.

I have tested my water - because I was also concerned about chlorine. I'm rural, and a chlorine test showed no. But I have tried running de ionized and i've run on store bought distilled water.

Completely agree with you on repeating mistakes. Thats why I started trying to change variables, but I didn't want to change too much at once. So I stuck with the same recipe. One run I'd change the water, another the yeast, and on down the line. Kind of went through everything I could think of with the mash, so I started looking at the still.

I did run a different recipe my last go around. I ran a thin mash that was sugar, corn, a little malted barley and a little malted rye. I got the flavor in that one, too.

I definitely feel like I'm running out of things to try. It could be the still. I'm definitely going to try running on propane when the weather turns around out here instead of running on the electric element. What you said makes a lot of sense, it could definitely be smearing.

Appreciate your advice!

[Tirefryer426]

Is the flavor prominent in any particular jars? Early? Late?

Butyric acid smells like vomit and easily noticed and identified, so I doubt it's that.

What sealing materials are you using?

Smell your fermenters.

So the thing that kind of gets me is that it doesn't smell. If I stick my face in a jar, it smells fantastic.
If anything it starts to dissipate towards tails, but I'm not generally sampling the tails too much. On my blended product, it does tend to rear up a lot more as I proof down.

The fermenters should be OK, but its a good point to bring up. I use 6.5 gallon brewing buckets with sealed lids and grommeted airlocks. I wash them with hot water and an unscented soap before I use them. I dry them with clean lint free towels, then I spray them with star san. Same goes for the lids and the airlocks. I also check the rubber seals in the lids to make sure they aren't torn or chipped. I've had one bucket where I didn't get a lid down all the way, but it was obvious really fast. No airlock activity. When I pitch yeast, I leave my lids covering 3/4 of the bucket for about 4 hours, then I seal them up and airlock them.

[Demy]

It could simply be a question of cuts.

[NZChris]

On my blended product, it does tend to rear up a lot more as I proof down.

What water are you using?

[Tirefryer426]

On my blended product, it does tend to rear up a lot more as I proof down.

What water are you using?

I've tried using a few different kinds. Tap, de ionized, and store bought distilled.

[Tirefryer426]

Hopefully I have this worked out. My SO said the off flavor really tastes like a stale penny. So that really points back to the still.
I've already rebuilt the condenser to allow for cleaning it easier, but I don't have a great way to clean my column. Especially that step down at the top. So I made a tool to get up there as best I can, and it looks like what I was mistaking for patina was - definitely not patina. Letting steam run through the column wasn't cleaning it out, and the citric acid bath wasn't getting it either. I'm assuming this is some funk from a puke when I was first starting out. But after getting a scrubber all the way up in there, what I was rinsing out of it definitely smelled in the ballpark of what I'm chasing taste wise. So I've used the tools I made to scrub the bejeebus out of it, and run another citric acid soak. Its looking and smelling clean now. Moving forward, I'll probably modify the column so I can tri-clamp it at the top.
Feels like an absolute noob mistake to make. I've learned that I don't really like this kit still all that much.

This thread has been helpful in a few other aspects I hadn't considered as well. So thank you for all the feedback. I've been researching the PID controller. Based on reading, it sounds like its not a huge deal running a pot still, but almost entirely useless attempting to reflux. I run my PID in manual mode with a percentage power, but it definitely still cycles full power for a second then shuts off to operate that way. So I'm going to pick up a SCR controller and try that out.
The other silly noob thing I was doing was that I was insulating my still. Its not in the picture, but I had that same insulation on the cape and the column. The comment about smearing made me realize that having that insulation there wasn't letting the still perform its function as well.

So I'm getting another run set up here, and i'll see how these changes work out. I'm pretty optimistic that getting that column sorted was a large part of my issue.

[Tirefryer426]

On my blended product, it does tend to rear up a lot more as I proof down.

What water are you using?

I've tried using a few different kinds. Tap, de ionized, and store bought distilled.
When I temper cuts I use distilled.

[NZChris]

The penny taste might be from running with shiny, clean, copper. I’ve never experienced it, because I’ve never done a spirit run with newly cleaned copper.