Question about electric boilers

[bcook608]

I've been reading through the different topics in the search relating to internal elements and I can't quite find the definitive answers that I would like so I thought I would start a new topic and lay out what I have instead of taking another thread off-topic.

I bought this from another local home distiller that was going legit and purging some of his hobby equipment.

The setup is as follows:
26 gal boiler (2 13 gal kegs welded into one large boiler)
2" column with reflux coil at the top (will not be using that for the time being. Will be operated as a pot still)
2 internal 120v elements (one 2kw and the other 1.5kw) on the back side (screw in). They appear to be standard SS elements, not ULWD elements.
2" T/C drain port (pictured)

I have tried coming up with a parts list for a fancy controller with an Auber controller, but I just want to get something together rather inexpensively so I can get this thing up and running for tests and doing runs as money is tight right now. I've chosen 120v because I don't have 220v in my garage yet. I plan to upgrade this summer. I was going to just plug the element ports and run on propane, but that would require me to rebuild my still head as the product outlet is WAY too close to the heat source. Keeping things electric seems to be the easiest and most economical way to get this up and running.

Things I need clarification on are:
1) If I build a controller from scratch without an Auber unit, how can I tell what my power output is to the element? Just wire in a Voltmeter?
2) What size elements would you recommend for a still this size? (I was thinking about using ULWD 5.5kw 240v ripple fold back elements on 120v making about 1815w each if my math is correct)
3) Could the Stilldragon Controller Kit be modified to fit my needs?

[still_stirrin]

Things I need clarification on are:
1) If I build a controller from scratch without an Auber unit, how can I tell what my power output is to the element? Just wire in a Voltmeter? <— An ammeter would be better to “indicate” relative power, since power is proportional to the square of the current. The voltage won’t give you a good indication because the power will decrease rapidly while the voltage only changes a little, especially at the top of the scale. Besides, you don’t really need to know the “power” exactly, but the current will show you how you’re coming down from full power relatively. An ammeter connected in series with the element will be the best indicator for you.

2) What size elements would you recommend for a still this size? (I was thinking about using ULWD 5.5kw 240v ripple fold back elements on 120v making about 1815w each if my math is correct) <— The “foldback” or “wavy” elements would be best. The wavy 5.5kW element on 120VAC would give you 1375W of heat approximately. And the 4.5kW foldback element would give you 1125W on 120VAC. So, the 5.5kW would probably be best for your 26 gallon boiler simply because of the mass of liquid inside.

Also, insulating the boiler would help you run though, as you’ll lose a lot of heat out of the system otherwise.

3) Could the Stilldragon Controller Kit be modified to fit my needs? <— The controller will work on the voltage it’s designed to run on, either 240VAC or 120VAC, but probably not both. If you believe you’ll change to 240VAC power in the future, then you’ll need better household circuits because of the current draw your element(s) will impose. Even with 120VAC power, a 5.5kW element will draw 11.45 amps which is about all you can put on a household 15amp circuit. So you’d need 2 separate dedicated circuits to power both elements.

I use two 4.5kW elements on 120VAC power for my keg boiler. I have built a dual triac controlled power controller that uses 2 separate (breakered) circuits. So I have full adjustability on both circuits for adjusting the power input. While I have installed voltmeters and ammeters in each control, the voltmeters aren’t of value as indicators as I said. But, the ammeters show how the power is adjusted. I use analog (bouncing needle) gauges and I like them. Measuring the current is quite appropriate for managing vapor production rate, so the ammeters are a good tool.
ss

Control Panel

Features:
—> dual input circuits (<15 amp draw each)
—> 10 amp analog ammeters
—> 150VAC analog voltmeters
—> 15 amp rated power switches
—> indicator lights for main “power on”
—> separate control potentiometers for adjusting power
—> switch control (with “peanut” light) for cooling fan
—> switch control (with “peanut” light) for cooling water pump

[bcook608]

I really appreciate this explanation!
Amp meters is what I meant to say so thanks for pointing out my error.

I'll look into 5.5kw elements @ 120v. I'll have to figure out if I have more than one circuit in my garage. If I have to run new electrical, that's going to be a ways off. I guess I'll make the necessary changes to run on propane in the meantime.

However, I will save this information for when I'm eventually able to switch to electric.

So if I switch to 240 and put an outlet in my garage, one 5.5kw element would be sufficient because I will net more power than I did with both at 120v, correct?

[still_stirrin]

… So if I switch to 240 and put an outlet in my garage, one 5.5kw element would be sufficient because I will net more power than I did with both at 120v, correct?

A 5.5kW element on 240VAC will draw 25 amps, so you’d need at least a 30 amp rated circuit for each element. That’s a lot of power and the installation (breaker and wire) will be expensive. Sure, 5.5kW (or more) will heat your boiler to production quicker. But you don’t need that much power for your stillhead, especially if/when you add a reflux head.

The ULWD elements running on 120VAC will give you enough power to produce, although heat up will take longer. But it will have less likelihood to scorch a “not so clean” wash. And you won’t have to modify your home’s wiring either.

I’m quite happy running on 2 separate circuits in my stillhouse and the 2.2kW of heating power is fine for my operations.

I doubt you’ll care to add 240VAC in the future if you set up and run with the two ULWD elements on 120VAC in the interim. You just won’t need to spend the money to do it.
ss

[TwoSheds]

You've got a big boiler there, a tall one at that, so if you stick with electric definitely insulate it for faster warm up and more efficiency (don't forget about insulating the bottom or at least putting it on wood or something.) I like Reflectix for the top/sides and just use wood on the bottom to keep it off the cold concrete floor.

A good heavy extension cord might get you to another circuit, just watch the wire gauge.

I run 5,500w in my 16 gallon and love it. Usually warm up at full blast and haven't had an issue with fairly clean washes, though I have the Auber controller to dial it back and do when in doubt.

On the 120v side Auber makes this unit which you could wire up if you have the inclination. The money is good, but you need to add a box, plug, outlet, wire, and some knowhow. Cheaper ones are out there, but I trust Auber.

https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=332

My opinion, the parts for a 30 amp breaker and circuit aren't bad as long as the run isn't too long. I'm lucky, my breaker box is in my garage where I work. If you have a longer run or will be paying to have someone else install the price goes up steeply. Alternatives are a stove or dryer outlet if you have one nearby and can afford to have those things unhooked while stillin'.

Just some food for thought. You're asking good questions!

TwoSheds

[Ben]

All the info you need to be able to run the Auber and ammeter are contained in here; https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pag ... ur-brewery

I know its a "brewery" controller, I modeled mine after theirs. I use the same panel for my brewery and distillery.

If you want something cheap and effective look into something like this SCR motor controller https://www.ebay.com/itm/114308298133?_ ... BM1vvh4t9f

Wire it into your larger element, then you can just unplug the little one if needed.

[Demy]

All good advice, I use a digital voltmeter as a reference but you can use an ammeter and then there are displays that show volts, amps, power etc ... just have a visual reference, but if you want to know the watts without making calculations there are displays that they do this. The controller must be suitable for the mains voltage, but there might be a model that handles both.

[ThomasBrewer]

Put the ammeter on the "wall side", before the SCR, not on the element side. Most won't give you accurate readings with chopped waveforms. The net result is the same.

If you're shopping Auber, I strongly recommend their DSPR-series controllers. The rotary adjustment is very nice.

[v-child]

I was going to just plug the element ports and run on propane, but that would require me to rebuild my still head as the product outlet is WAY too close to the heat source. Keeping things electric seems to be the easiest and most economical way to get this up and running.

It looks as if you could swivel the outlet away from the heat source.

[bunny]

The time will come when a lot more hobbyists will learn to appreciate the value of True RMS clamp meters. Until then you will find most controllers fiddle with the sinusoidal A/C wave and make it varying degrees of a "non-sinusoidal" wave. This may sound complicated because it is for me, but all you really need to know is that it exists. Non True RMS meters will not be accurate measuring non-sinusoidal waves and incapable of making volt, amp, watt measurements that are meaningful. If you're lucky, you can use those meaningless measurements as a guide to repeatability of what is happening now and not really worry about it. Just don't bother telling me how many watts you are using because your numbers are theoretically worthless if they came from the controller.

I have built 2 controllers with meters that can't tell me accurately the voltage or amperage to my elements. The only way for me to tell is to clamp this:

to this:

between the controller and the element.
If I want to know the voltage I can backout the plug a little and with this meter measure True RMS voltage.


I on the other foot am reverting back to the days before controllers.
To the time of the "air still" and the "T-500" with one or two elements and NO controller.

If you have a basic understanding of vapor speed you can use an element that matches your column diameter's requirements.

When I strip I always have plugged my 1500w element directly into the GFIC. So, nothing new here.

For my spirit runs in my 1" column with spp I have determined 400 watts(23.31 ips vapor speed) is pretty much a maximum safe power level.

I have a 1500w240v element that meters about 400w on 120v. Great for running but not enough for heat-up. I will install an additional element.

[Ben]

I'm not sure I understand the hang up on amp meters, volt, whatever meters especially on a pot still. All you need is a thing to adjust to make the take off rate change. Maybe an indicator light to show you have power going to the element. Even on a plated column the value makes very little difference, you aren't going to run the same power input run to run. It takes however much amperage it takes.

Mine show some numbers, I am happy I can tell my circuitry hasn't blown up, I can see if there is a lot of draw in the neighborhood from my volt meter. Makes no difference in the run. The little red indicator output light flashing on and off gives me the same amount of useful info. If I don't have music going I don't even need that, you can hear the element firing.

[Salt Must Flow]

If you intend to get 240V wired up in your garage then I'd just go with a 40A SSR for your controller because it will work with 120V and 240V.

Still Dragon sells controller parts. For a very basic controller you could get a 40A SSR, potentiometer, heatsink and enclosure. You can add a volt amp meter if you want.

The Auber DSPR400 has all of the best features and well worth every penny. In distilling mode it reads in 1/10th degree resolution which is helpful. It has many settings that you may not appreciate at first, but will later down the road. For instance when you are heating up your boiler you can set a power level and once it reaches a desired temp it will run at another pre-set power level automatically. It has set temp alarms, runs variable and as PID. You can adjust from 0% to 100% power. It has a built in alarm buzzer, but I always prefer in install Auber's large alarm buzzer and a kill switch for the buzzer too. Alarms are very handy. I wire a main power switch on the controller too.

[TwoSheds]

+1 on the DSPR400 but it's not going to get you going on a budget, but in reality it's not that expensive either! Bonus, you can switch it to mashing mode to bring water up to a set temp and hold it there. I picked up a second hand keggle that I'm doing my mashing in and it's as simple as setting the strike temp and turning it on. Setup is a little tricky but you get used to it. Only downside I've seen so far is that the switching makes watt meters jump around, but I can live with that.

Regarding having an amp/watt meter I like to have some kind of quantifiable measurement for baseline and comparisons. "A hair over half" or "about three quarters" will get you in the ballpark, but knowing my last spirit run was "at 52% power" gets me a lot closer. With voltage fluctuation it'll never be exactly the same, but it means I can follow my notes and get pretty consistent to start with.

[Salt Must Flow]

+1 on the DSPR400 but it's not going to get you going on a budget, but in reality it's not that expensive either! Bonus, you can switch it to mashing mode to bring water up to a set temp and hold it there. I picked up a second hand keggle that I'm doing my mashing in and it's as simple as setting the strike temp and turning it on. Setup is a little tricky but you get used to it. Only downside I've seen so far is that the switching makes watt meters jump around, but I can live with that.

Regarding having an amp/watt meter I like to have some kind of quantifiable measurement for baseline and comparisons. "A hair over half" or "about three quarters" will get you in the ballpark, but knowing my last spirit run was "at 52% power" gets me a lot closer. With voltage fluctuation it'll never be exactly the same, but it means I can follow my notes and get pretty consistent to start with.

Yeah the Auber EZboil is not intended to be used with amp/watt/volt meters because of the way it works. They turn on and off to run anywhere from 0% to 100% power in distilling mode.

In Microsoft Excel I made a simple calculator where I enter '% power' and 'element watts' and it spits out how many watts it is running. I can also enter 'running watts' and 'element watts' and it spits out what % power that is. That has been very helpful for me on many occasions.

[still_stirrin]

Point of note to the “electrical discussion” here: analog ammeters do just fine at integrating non-sinusoidal waveforms. They tend to be more RMS indications quite naturally because of the transformer coil of the gage.

Digital meters are sensitive to the waveform because they convert the signal to a series of steps and then integrate the shape to give an average value. The clock speed of the analog to digital (A/D) conversion is greatly influenced by how “clean” the metering signal is. For radically shaped waveforms, this can be detrimental.

Sure, those cheap Chinese all-in-one amp-volt-power displays are nice, but they don’t hold up well to our varied operational conditions. Good old analog needle gages are inexpensive and very durable.
ss

[bcook608]

Ok, so I have made my decision.

I will be running:
-(2) 5.5kw ULWD fold back wavy elements @ 120v for a total of around 2.7kw
-Standard Auber 25A SSR with Pot and analog Ammeter for each element
-I will plug one in in the garage and run an extension cord that is only as long as it needs to be and plenty heavy to handle the current so it doesn't burn up
- I will find/buy a cover to protect the connections or see if I can find an element with built in cover. I will install GFCI outlets on both circuits or invest in GFCI breakers to avoid the hassle and make sure ALL outlets on said circuit are protected.

I MAY upgrade to one of the Auber digital units, but it just seems more hassle than it's worth and I KNOW it'll cause me to get complacent. I'm used to the propane/natural gas for my little still so I don't mind sitting there tinkering with levels for power and water flow. Plus I can make marks on the analog displays that show me my "sweet zones" for the different runs (heat up, strip, spirit, etc.)

Thank you all for your valuable input! I'm sure I'll be back when I actually get these parts and decide that I'm in over my head and need more help/pictures of how yours is wired up.

[shadylane]

Ok, so I have made my decision.
I will be running:
-(2) 5.5kw ULWD fold back wavy elements @ 120v for a total of around 2.7kw

That's what I'd do for now. That and insulation.
Also, the heaters will work fine, once you get around to upgrading to 240V

I will be running:
-Standard Auber 25A SSR with Pot and analog Ammeter for each element

I'd recommend a 40amp or larger SSVR.
They only cost only a couple $ more and will last longer.

As to meters, I prefer a simple analog volt meter wired in parallel with the heater.
Most analog amp meters have to be wired in series, that means the meter, wires and connecters all have to handle the full current the heaters draw. When the amp meter fails, it usually means the controller fails and the run is over until the problem is fixed. If a voltmeter fails, the run can go on.

[cob]

I was going to just plug the element ports and run on propane, but that would require me to rebuild my still head as the product outlet is WAY too close to the heat source. Keeping things electric seems to be the easiest and most economical way to get this up and running.

It looks as if you could swivel the outlet away from the heat source.

All good input on this thread for electric. but that screw fitting at the top

looks to be brass, if it is you should replace it with a copper/copper coupler

which would allow you to run propane without the outlet proximity worries,

or brass/lead contamination worries.

[bcook608]

Thanks. Yeah, I'm planning to redo the column and probably redo the plumbing on the Liebig.

[NZChris]

I recommend using two elements and controlling one. If an element blows, you can usually finish the run on the remaining element, plus they can be run on different circuits.

My cheap moving coil Ammeter doesn't behave with an SSR, so I made a 0-100 template to stick onto the control box and use the dial position instead of Amps.

[ThomasBrewer]

Again, just put the meter on the input side before the controller. It'll show you the draw, without being exposed to the weird waveform. Ez PZ.

[shadylane]

Tall and skinny like that.
Lots of insulation and at least a little bit of agitation during heat up

[jward]

Again, just put the meter on the input side before the controller. It'll show you the draw, without being exposed to the weird waveform. Ez PZ.

Sadly if the controller is using pulse width modulation the meter will show the current draw at the time so you see it switch between full on an off. You don't get to see the average provided by the modulation. You do get to run by the PWM % setting.

[Ben]

If you are running PWM, you know the 100% draw of the element and the PWM percent you don't need the ammeter to tell you what is going on. Do math: IE 68% of 5234 watts is 3559.12W.

Done, saved you the cost of an ammeter go buy another bag of corn


The point of it is that an ammeter is really not that useful. Buying a good thermometer for your mashes, or a comfy camp chair to do your running on will be a much better use of your money. If you just want to watch a meter wiggle about that's fine but it shouldn't be considered necessary to a controller.

[Demy]

I think anything that gives you a "visual" point of reference at the bottom is what we are looking for, do you agree? You can measure Volt, Ampere, percentages, 0-100 etc ... What matters is a reference point to adjust the heating power. If we want Watts we can calculate measuring the parameters. Are you agree or I lose something?

[jward]

I can drive the boil by the PWM % as the reference without regard to the amps or watts. The ammeter has other useful features in that it tells me lots more like kWh used. I also use the setup for an HLT control where the ammeter works as expected.

[Yummyrum]

Percentage control is great so long as the mains supply voltage is supplied at the rated voltage of your element .

But the reality is that the voltage at your controller input can often be quite a bit higher or lower than the rated voltage due to supply demands throughout the day , distribution cable drops etc .

Being at 50% power now might be putting more or less power into your boiler than in an hours time .

That is where an Ammeter can have have an advantage because you will see the amps change throughout the run and can compensate for fluctuations in the mains voltage .

[jward]

True that, but with PWM the ammeter just flips up and down not providing an average. I guess what I have is called a "multi function power meter". I was glad to see I'm getting 245 VAC. It seems to show that whenever I power it up which is admittedly a small sample. Better a favorable reading in a small sample then undesirable readings. The electrician cautioned to watch for low voltage issues with my house being at the end of the run. Experience will tell how well it controls a boil.

[per anima]

- I will find/buy a cover to protect the connections or see if I can find an element with built in cover. I will install GFCI outlets on both circuits or invest in GFCI breakers to avoid the hassle and make sure ALL outlets on said circuit are protected.

my .02 as an electrician, GFI breakers are expensive as hell. The first GFI plug in the line protects all downstream plugs for 1/4 of the price.

[bcook608]

- I will find/buy a cover to protect the connections or see if I can find an element with built in cover. I will install GFCI outlets on both circuits or invest in GFCI breakers to avoid the hassle and make sure ALL outlets on said circuit are protected.

my .02 as an electrician, GFI breakers are expensive as hell. The first GFI plug in the line protects all downstream plugs for 1/4 of the price.

Thanks for that! I'll probably just end up rewiring my garage with it's own breaker box and then add all the outlets I want, including 1 or 2 220 on their own circuits.