Angel Yeast Question

[howie]

i have searched around but can't find the answer to this angel yeast question.
i have used the spent grains from an irish red ale beer to make a USJJM style with angel yeast.
smells nice and i have racked about 18l into my still for stripping.
meanwhile i have coaxed the angel yeast back into life with 5l of dissolved sugar & cold water in the fermenter.
i was going to add some distillers malt (among other things)to replace some of the removed grain.
the question is, assuming the yeast is ok, has it retained it's enzymatic abilities?

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

UJ has nothing to do with enzymes.

So, you converted the starches to sugar, rinsed all the sugar off, took the grains, and added enzymes again and are worried about the enzymes? You should be worried what the enzymes are going to eat.

(This was really off topic in a sugar head thread, so I split and retitled it)

[NZChris]

Sometimes, you have to be the first. It's your idea, so I suggest that you try it and see what happens.

[bilgriss]

My experience in various mashes is that there is always a little potential value left over in grain after a standard mash. I imagine you will get a little more out of the grain. Also if you started UJ with Angle yeast and it spent a week or more in that first mash, the enzymes will be mostly spent, but there is probably a little more as well. A little.

I suspect if this is the leftovers from a beer mash added to a a sugar wash, the return will be minimal, but you will get flavor. Do a search for gumballhead. I think this is more what you are doing.

[howie]

thanks for your replies.
ok the UJ reference was probably because of that style of replacing some grain for for subsequent fermentations, backset etc and a bit similar in method IMHO.
the angel yeast worked well in the first ferment of the spent grains (with sugar) and pulled out a lot of flavour.
anyway, i'll rephrase the question completely...
if you use angel yeast, say in a no-mash wash, and then keep the trub alive and add more fermentables (ie malted grain), would there be any enzymatic action left in the trub, or just yeast.


BTW the strip tasted and smelt great, well worth fermenting on the grain with the spent grain from the irish ale.
based on this, the next will be a stout whiskey (fresh grain of course)

[NormandieStill]

Just to double check, when you say Angel Yeast, you are referring to the Yellow Label ("Starter of Liquor Making" it says on my bag)? Because they make a lot of yeasts.

There's a discussion about reusing Yellow Label going on in the No Mash No Sugar thread. Have a look there for the latest thinkings... but you'll have to try it yourself if you want an answer.

[elbono]

I have posted some of my experimentation in the no mash no sugar thread, take a look.

My conclusions so far:
1. Just adding more grain to trub after ferment is complete doesn't work
2. There is some high temp enzyme activity after #1 but it needs gelatinized statch.
3. #2 Doesn't produce fermentable sugars, adding yeast didn't start anything.

Stay tuned... More to come

[howie]

NS yes it was yellow label.
the wash is very vigorous this morning, so at least the yeast is happy.
i'll do a small experiment when this has fermented out, just put some distillers malted barley in the trub with no sugar.
that would prove whether the yellow labels enzymes are still active?

[CopperFiend]

I'd be surprised if there's enough enzymes left at this stage to convert any significant quantity of the starch in the new grain, especially as you've drained off the liquid in the first batch but who knows.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'd be supprised if the manufacturers of that stuff are giving anything away for nothing......once it's used it's used.
I hope you can prove me wrong.

[Dancing4dan]

NS yes it was yellow label.
the wash is very vigorous this morning, so at least the yeast is happy.
i'll do a small experiment when this has fermented out, just put some distillers malted barley in the trub with no sugar.
that would prove whether the yellow labels enzymes are still active?

The malted barley will have its own enzymes (?) and will skew the test. Try un malted barley or some corn.

[Demy]

I have never tried but I doubt that the enzymes will still be alive after a fermentation, instead the yeast part will certainly be active, remember that that yeast is actually a mix of substances. I always ferment on wheat, I like the result and the yeast will completely ferment the available sugars (even trapped)

[Saltbush Bill]

instead the yeast part will certainly be active,

That part might be worth playing around with.....who knows what strain/ type it is and what it can do.

[Demy]

instead the yeast part will certainly be active,

That part might be worth playing around with.....who knows what strain/ type it is and what it can do.

I reused that part, it ferments well, as an aromatic profile it looks a lot like bread yeast.

[Saltbush Bill]

That is probably all it is ....bread yeast is tough stuff in all manner of ways.

[howie]

NS yes it was yellow label.
the wash is very vigorous this morning, so at least the yeast is happy.
i'll do a small experiment when this has fermented out, just put some distillers malted barley in the trub with no sugar.
that would prove whether the yellow labels enzymes are still active?

The malted barley will have its own enzymes (?) and will skew the test. Try un malted barley or some corn.

ah yes, i suppose even at 30C i might get some action from distillers malt.
unmalted it will be.
thanks dan

[howie]

I have never tried but I doubt that the enzymes will still be alive after a fermentation, instead the yeast part will certainly be active, remember that that yeast is actually a mix of substances. I always ferment on wheat, I like the result and the yeast will completely ferment the available sugars (even trapped)

the yellow label yeast is certainly alive and kicking, i would say more active than others on a 2nd ferment.
as for the enzymes, part of me thinks they could stay active because they are a living thing(?) and not just a chemical addition.
but part of me thinks the enzymes might have a finite amount work they can do before becoming inactive.

[CopperFiend]

Unfortunately enzymes are not living things, they are molecules and cannot reproduce. They are made by living things.

[NormandieStill]

But once made, as long as they are not abused too much they'll just keep working. But that abuse might well include rising alcohol levels!

As stated in the other thread, I don't think it's just the enzymes in the powder doing the work. I think the rhizopus mould is continuing to digest the starch after the initial enzymes keep the yeast alive. I think the enzymes are their to ensure that the yeast get some food during the lag period of the mould.

[rubberduck71]

I've done several times a sugarhead on spent grain + remnant angel yeast (in fact I have a CROW bourbon finishing up as I type this), but never attempted trub with new grains added.

[Demy]

But once made, as long as they are not abused too much they'll just keep working. But that abuse might well include rising alcohol levels!

As stated in the other thread, I don't think it's just the enzymes in the powder doing the work. I think the rhizopus mould is continuing to digest the starch after the initial enzymes keep the yeast alive. I think the enzymes are their to ensure that the yeast get some food during the lag period of the mould.

Exactly, that's what I meant, an active fermentation environment I think is unfavorable ... and yes, that product is a complex of ingredients, even the molds that attack the starch.

[Twisted Brick]

I have never tried but I doubt that the enzymes will still be alive after a fermentation

From reading, enzymes are indeed reusable as they are biological catalysts (proteins) that remain unchanged after completing their reaction.

Why not test with raw grains? Maybe you could develop a continuous, completely hands-off room-temp conversion process (altho slow) that would eliminate the need of a controlled mash regime and use of sugar altogether.

[NormandieStill]

OK. I need to get my fridge fermenting chamber rigged up. Then I'm game for having a go at a "continuous" ferment.

[Demy]

That is probably all it is ....bread yeast is tough stuff in all manner of ways.

I thought exactly the same thing, also because it has a not excessive price ... even if the prices in this period LEAVE

[elbono]

Seems like people are looking at duplicating what have ready done, confirmation would be good but could be unnecessary work.

To summarize my experiment so far:

1. Added fresh grain to trub from finished ferment. Treated the same as two fresh batches (garden hose temp water 15-20c, stirred for 3 days, sealed, kept at same temp, 27c air, on top of surface at 30c). Showed little if any difference from when I sealed it after 3 weeks. Fresh batches finished in 2 weeks, produced about 400 ml of uncut alcohol per kg corn, so I judge the conditions acceptable. I didn't try to distill the experiment since it looked/smelled like when I sealed it (grain wasn't chewed up)

2. Did starch test on experimental batch, no starch, added boiling water, no starch, cooked at simmer for 10-25 minutes, lots of starch! A few hours later started separating into layers like normal mash, clear on top, milky middle, solids on bottom. Clear tests no starch, middle tests mild starch. Added proofed dady yeast, no fermentation started.

I was considering adding some sebamyl enzyme I have but while I was thinking it has developed a layer on top. When I first noticed it it was thin white layer with some spider webbing. Next day (today) it is thicker some cheesy look around the edges.

So, there are definitely some high temp enzymes left after fermentation (boiled, then got separation) but they don't produce fermentable sugar. My cooking probably killed any lower temp tolerant enzymes.

I haven't smelled the experiment yet, it sounds like lacto, if it smells like cheese I'll judge it a opportunistic lacto.

But what does a rizopus look like?

[elbono]

Sorry about that I wanted to save draft while I looked up the spelling of rhizopus and hit submit... Damn smart phones!

unmalted it will be.
thanks dan

Worth a try but it didn't work for me with corn. At least confirmation of results though.

I think the enzymes are their to ensure that the yeast get some food during the lag period of the mould.

At least some of the enzymes survived my first fermentation but not enough for my experiment.to succeed . Maybe the alcohol killed the rhizopus?

If it is just a get it started measure I'm sure the enzymes would get diluted eventually in repeated usage, topping them up wouldn't be a huge thing.

[elbono]

I'd be supprised if the manufacturers of that stuff are giving anything away for nothing......once it's used it's used.
I hope you can prove me wrong.

Totally agree but my mother grew up on the 1930's and I seem to have learned some of her tendencies, never throw away something that MIGHT be useful.

Knowledge is money, they know how to make something work really good and they're making some money off of us UNTIL we figure it out.

[howie]

i stripped my IPA whiskey yesterday, so i had about 5 litres of trub left, which was totally fermented out.
added filtered water to 15 litres and threw in a 750gm bag of rolled oats.
rolled are mainly starch(?) and according to the packets nutrition blurb, 1% sugar.
there wasn't any action yesterday.
so only 7.5gms of sugar and it's bubbling away, quite slowly but steadily this morning.
if it continues to bubble this way, i can only presume that the yellow angel enzyme is active and converting the starch, which the yeast is feeding on.

[NZChris]

If you have a refractometer, take a reading. If the reading rises over the next few days, you are getting alcohol.

[bilgriss]

Lot of ideas floating around here.

Enzymes become 'denatured' by heat, reaction, or pH way outside of their effective ranges, and over time. Mashing at beer temperatures above 150F, while increasing the speed of activity, also destroys the enzymes themselves. The chemical structure literally unfolds, rendering them useless - eventually. They get used up.

Angel yeast is typically added at a lower temperature, and would have to be to not kill off the yeast, so there's more likelihood those enzymes would persist actively for longer. Still depends on time and how changed they are chemically.

Also, amylase goes dormant at pH levels below 4, so if you introduce a lot of backset or have a big pH drop in fermentation, although it's not destroyed, the enzymes don't do anything. Alpha Amylase optimal pH is 5.2.

Interesting experiment to see what happens going on here!