Mashing in grains

[bez]

Kinda behind schedule on this due to being under the weather with covid, I've been doing some further research before i do my first AG mash and leads me to my question. Since I'm using all unmalted grains and using enzymes do I just throw all my grains in at 190 (Since I'm using corn) or do I wait till it hits each grains gelatinizing temp to put them in?

[Sporacle]

I understand that you are using enzymes and unmalted, might be beneficial to use it to get an idea of your temps and how your equipment works and actual step through the process as if you were using malted grains. When I use Angel yeast I gelatinise everything at the same temp then cool to pitch

[TwoSheds]

I'm just getting started with grains too and I've read that some grains with hulls can give off an astringent tannic flavor if heated too high.

I also noticed there's an upper range on given grains. Not sure if they gel slower or not at all above that range. This thread has info, but there's some question about the accuracy of the data... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799&start=60

[bez]

I understand that you are using enzymes and unmalted, might be beneficial to use it to get an idea of your temps and how your equipment works and actual step through the process as if you were using malted grains. When I use Angel yeast I gelatinise everything at the same temp then cool to pitch

Good point

[bez]

I'm just getting started with grains too and I've read that some grains with hulls can give off an astringent tannic flavor if heated too high.

I also noticed there's an upper range on given grains. Not sure if they gel slower or not at all above that range. This thread has info, but there's some question about the accuracy of the data... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799&start=60

Didn't think of that, might be accurate since I'm using steam flaked barley which I believe has husks on

[bez]

I'm just getting started with grains too and I've read that some grains with hulls can give off an astringent tannic flavor if heated too high.

I also noticed there's an upper range on given grains. Not sure if they gel slower or not at all above that range. This thread has info, but there's some question about the accuracy of the data... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799&start=60

Didn't think of that, might be accurate since I'm using steam flaked barley which I believe has husks on

Maybe I can make a screen sieve to sift off the hulls after grinding

[shadylane]

I'm just getting started with grains too and I've read that some grains with hulls can give off an astringent tannic flavor if heated too high.

I also noticed there's an upper range on given grains. Not sure if they gel slower or not at all above that range. This thread has info, but there's some question about the accuracy of the data... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799&start=60

Here's some more info that goes with the chart.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion

If I was doing a bourbon mash with mostly corn and only a little barley.
I'd figure the husky flavor from higher temps would be contribute to the character.
A while back, I did a 100% unmalted barley mash @ 190f.
Fermented and distilled on the grain. The husk flavor was definitely overpowering.

[bez]

I'm just getting started with grains too and I've read that some grains with hulls can give off an astringent tannic flavor if heated too high.

I also noticed there's an upper range on given grains. Not sure if they gel slower or not at all above that range. This thread has info, but there's some question about the accuracy of the data... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799&start=60

Here's some more info that goes with the chart.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion

If I was doing a bourbon mash with mostly corn and only a little barley.
I'd figure the husky flavor from higher temps would be contribute to the character.
A while back, I did a 100% unmalted barley mash @ 190f.
Fermented and distilled on the grain. The husk flavor was definitely overpowering.

How do you think filling my bucket of my milled flaked barley with cold water to be able to skim out the "floaties (hulls)" then dump off the water before adding it to the mash would work?

[Twisted Brick]

bez,

As you move forward, some things to think about:

Unmalted grains behave very differently in the mash pot than malted ones and require different handling. You haven’t mentioned the grains, other than corn, in your grain bill, but Google beta-glucans and beta-glucan rest. It would also be good for you to be familiar with the gelatinization temps of the grains you plan to use.

Flaked (and/or rolled) barley has been (partially) gelatinized and does not need to see boiling temperatures to gel. Also, flaked barley contributes proteins and unfermentable saccharides, intended as adjuncts (up to 10% of the grist) to promote body and head retention in beer. We distillers are more interested in fermentable sugars and flavor so just know that your brewhouse efficiency will go up if you can derive your barley flavors from malt.

Barley (and other brewing grain) cultivars have been selected for their suitability for malting, flavor and sugar potential. As such, some unmalted barleys can carry more of a tannic 'husk' flavor than nutty fermentable sugars. If you got your flaked barley from a LHBS you’re good.

Extracting tannins from grains is really more a function of pH than temperature. The fallacy of a 170F hard ceiling temp has been erroneously repeated for years. See below, but controlling pH of your mash will keep polyphenols (tannins) from leeching into your mash at higher temps. If any temp upwards of 170F is so critical in extracting evil tannins, why is decoction mashing (boiling a portion of the mash and returning it to the main mash) so prevalent and the spectre of tannin extraction is never mentioned? pH control.

You can certainly throw all of your grains into boiling water (or any temp above individual ideal gel temp) at one time, but you will make your best-tasting spirit by designing a mash regime that preserves the flavor of your individual grains. Typically, grains gel faster at higher temperatures, but at the cost of robbing potential flavor.

How to Brew by John Palmer is a great place to learn all-grain mash techniques and properties.

There is so much to learn that it must feel like drinking from a firehose, but diving into an all-grain mash will teach you more than pages and pages of questions. Keep a log book of all of your processes and you will become proficient in no time. Here are a few links that may help.


https://beerandwinejournal.com/tannins-mash/

https://beerandwinejournal.com/tannins-in-the-boil/

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/H ... of_Tannins

https://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/blog/fla ... aked-oats/

[bez]

bez,

As you move forward, some things to think about:

Unmalted grains behave very differently in the mash pot than malted ones and require different handling. You haven’t mentioned the grains, other than corn, in your grain bill, but Google beta-glucans and beta-glucan rest. It would also be good for you to be familiar with the gelatinization temps of the grains you plan to use.

Flaked (and/or rolled) barley has been (partially) gelatinized and does not need to see boiling temperatures to gel. Also, flaked barley contributes proteins and unfermentable saccharides, intended as adjuncts (up to 10% of the grist) to promote body and head retention in beer. We distillers are more interested in fermentable sugars and flavor so just know that your brewhouse efficiency will go up if you can derive your barley flavors from malt.

Barley (and other brewing grain) cultivars have been selected for their suitability for malting, flavor and sugar potential. As such, some unmalted barleys can carry more of a tannic 'husk' flavor than nutty fermentable sugars. If you got your flaked barley from a LHBS you’re good.

Extracting tannins from grains is really more a function of pH than temperature. The fallacy of a 170F hard ceiling temp has been erroneously repeated for years. See below, but controlling pH of your mash will keep polyphenols (tannins) from leeching into your mash at higher temps. If any temp upwards of 170F is so critical in extracting evil tannins, why is decoction mashing (boiling a portion of the mash and returning it to the main mash) so prevalent and the spectre of tannin extraction is never mentioned? pH control.

You can certainly throw all of your grains into boiling water (or any temp above individual ideal gel temp) at one time, but you will make your best-tasting spirit by designing a mash regime that preserves the flavor of your individual grains. Typically, grains gel faster at higher temperatures, but at the cost of robbing potential flavor.

How to Brew by John Palmer is a great place to learn all-grain mash techniques and properties.

There is so much to learn that it must feel like drinking from a firehose, but diving into an all-grain mash will teach you more than pages and pages of questions. Keep a log book of all of your processes and you will become proficient in no time. Here are a few links that may help.


https://beerandwinejournal.com/tannins-mash/

https://beerandwinejournal.com/tannins-in-the-boil/

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/H ... of_Tannins

https://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/blog/fla ... aked-oats/

The grains I have is (all will be milled of course) cracked corn, steam flaked barley, rye and I was thinking ~2% or so of rolled oats for some mouth feel. All from feed store.

[8Ball]

I’ve made bourbon and Irish-style spirits with steam rolled and whole barley from the feed store. I roast both with good results. The whole barley is malted, roasted, and smoked. I have threads on all of this if you want to dig a little. Good luck. Also, what Twisted Brick told you was great advice.

[stevea]

Phenolics/tannins. Though they may make your wash taste bad, but you *should* lose most of these in the distillation (I speak from theory, not experience). The more volatile ones have a BP around 200C. The most volatile - creasol, guaiacol, are the smoke in scotch whisky, and a bit makes it through. Roughly 1ppm, but those burnt/smoke flavors can be tasted at very low levels. The husk matter is mostly condensed tannin and not likely to make it through the sill, and not as flavorful. I'm a little surprised at 8ball's experience.

Twisted Brick posts some good advice, but I'll go farther. Wheat and especially rye contain a fair amount of pentosan carbohydrates (aka 'gums') and this add to wort viscosity greatly. A rye whiskey mash (>50% rye) is likely to get very sticky. There are 'viscosity' enzymes mean to break down these gums and they are highly advisable if you use a lot of rye or wheat. The ones I'm familiar with operate ~55C-60C (130F-140F). Corn (maize) and barley aren't a problem. So one approach would be to do a separate viscosity rest for wheat & rye. In my homebrew days I've tried viscosity rests for unmalted adjuncts using malt as the enzyme source and this was hit&miss; not reliable. If I were attempting that I'd use a lager malt b/c the ale malts are kilned at a higher temperature and you lose some enzymes that way. Flaked rye & wheat are likely to cause fewer problems.

DO NOT toss your grist into a very hot mash tun. One result is called "balling" where the exterior starches gelatinizes into goo, and the interior starch never gets wet. You may get golf-ball sized lumps. Also you really don't want to instantly gelatinize all the starch as that traps way too much water in the branches of the amylopectins. Grist will hold ~7 or 8 times it's weight in water when gelatinized! When there isn't enough water, the hot starch undergoes "retrogradation" - the starch branches tangle. Balling and retrogradation both lead to very low efficiency (low SG wort). You can improve balling by stirring the lumps, but retrogradation is unrecoverable. The solution is to use alpha-amylase during gelatinization to trim the amylopectins and release the trapped water.

So I'd introduce the grist to water below the lowest gelat temperature, say 55C/130F, stir and heat at a moderate pace with some high temp alpha-amylase to break up the amylopectins & release water. Traditional US distilling added some small fraction of the malt for enzymes, BUT malt(barley) alpha-amylase may not tolerate the temperatures needed to gelatinize corn. They were also making 6-7% ABV wash, so they had a lot of water relative to grist. Once all the unmalted grains are gelatinized and not too thick, you'd cool to beer-brewing temps and add the malt or saccharification enzymes. Some of the SSF enzymes can continue to work in the fermenter!

Thanks for plugging John Palmer's book. John was a good friend in that era, and it is a good book.