Help With Design

[Hebden]

The good news is the internal vapour tubes still look good. Bad news is I've just made a mess of the ferrule and I cannot tell if I got a good seal and I don't know how to remove this mess, time for YouTube.

So heat and wire brush clean ferrule (to a reasonable degree), do you guys think I should totally remove ferrule, replace with new and attempt to clean copper tube for a better chance?
Or just wait on silver solder and add more solder to existing joint?

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[Deplorable]

Thats not silver bearing solder and liquid flux?

[Hebden]

Thats not silver bearing solder and liquid flux?

No, I messed up. The proper stuff arrives Wednesday, I forgot and used the standard stuff I've been using on copper all along.

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[Deplorable]

Heat it up and the ferrule will slide out. Clean everything thoroughly and use the liquid acid flux and Stay Brite silver solder.
Heat up very slowly. Let the SS have time to absorb the heat from the copper.

[Salt Must Flow]

I've always used Silver Solder and Harris Stay-Clean liquid flux. The description on this page says the solder you are using is perfectly suitable.

To test the solder joint on the ferrules, I just cap one end, stand it upright and fill it up with water from the opposite end.

[Hebden]

Heat it up and the ferrule will slide out. Clean everything thoroughly and use the liquid acid flux and Stay Brite silver solder.
Heat up very slowly. Let the SS have time to absorb the heat from the copper.

OK and thank you Deplorable.

I've always used Silver Solder and Harris Stay-Clean liquid flux. The description on this page says the solder you are using is perfectly suitable.

To test the solder joint on the ferrules, I just cap one end, stand it upright and fill it up with water from the opposite end.

Hi again Salt,

I have actually ordered Harris Stay Clean and Silver Solder from Amazon, it arrives Wednesday. Gives me time to clean up properly.

[Hebden]

Oh dear internals have come undone removing ferrule. This game is not easy.

Feels like time to start again with more knowledge and ability.

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[ecir54]

Have most of a shotgun fabed up. Going to use stay silv 5 on the plates then use lead free on the endcaps, ferule and water connections. This way there will be no way the pates will come loose.

[Salt Must Flow]

This shouldn't be a big deal if you intended to break it all down and start over. I'd only be concerned with the ends more so than the baffles. That is unless you want to straighten the crookedness out to make it all go back together easier. The type of solder that was used inside the water jacket is not an issue. What's important are the end caps & ferrules.

I ended up using copper ferrules for my shotguns. Copper is easier to solder. I figured it was worth the cost, but they aren't necessary.

A Dremel tool would work very well to remove all the solder from interior ends of the 2" pipe. I use a Die Grinder with abrasive pads to remove & clean up all other surfaces.

By the time this shotgun is completed, you will know it very intimately

[Hebden]

Have most of a shotgun fabed up. Going to use stay silv 5 on the plates then use lead free on the endcaps, ferule and water connections. This way there will be no way the pates will come loose.

Well Eric, I know I am a beginner, but take this advice and place some olives behind the end plates. It will make your end plates much sturdier. If I had done this, I wouldn't be ripping my rig apart when 95% complete.

I would also advise on the shims talked about in this thread. They were excellent.

[Hebden]

This shouldn't be a big deal if you intended to break it all down and start over. I'd only be concerned with the ends more so than the baffles. That is unless you want to straighten the crookedness out to make it all go back together easier. The type of solder that was used inside the water jacket is not an issue. What's important are the end caps & ferrules.

I ended up using copper ferrules for my shotguns. Copper is easier to solder. I figured it was worth the cost, but they aren't necessary.

A Dremel tool would work very well to remove all the solder from interior ends of the 2" pipe. I use a Die Grinder with abrasive pads to remove & clean up all other surfaces.

By the time this shotgun is completed, you will know it very intimately

Salt, unfortunately I have literally used all my 2" pipe, this is what I used to make my baffles and end plate with. The decision is now:-
a) I order new 2" pipe which is not expensive and provides for an easier time making new end plates with and I can make a slighly longer shotgun with.
b) I dissemble my kit and clean it up and make 2 new end plates which I would have to make out of 3" tube which with its thicker walls is harder to work with.

I am leaning towards a) starting afresh, to be honest it is easy next time but the BIGGEST problem remains, I have no means with which to make exact baffles and end plates, and so, it will again be a squeeze to get the condenser in the 2".

With this in mind, I may as well use the crappy baffles already made and just use x8 olives to back the 2 new end plate as "I WILL" have large gaps around my 15mm pipe at both end plates.

It is so annoying knowing that my end plates will need to fit x4 poorly placed pipes before I start.

[Salt Must Flow]

If you insist on making new end plates, you do not need more 2" pipe. You can use smaller 3/4" pipe. A flattened out piece of 3/4" is 2.7475". That's more than you need to make new end caps. You can usually buy copper pipe by the foot at local hardware stores.

Well the first goal in my mind would be to remove the core from the 2" pipe. Even a simple hand file can clean up the interior of the ends of that pipe. Like I said previously, I've done this easily using a Dremel tool.

The end caps can be easily removed and even an angle grinder can clean them up well using an appropriate sanding disk unless you make new ones. The literature on the solder you used says it's perfectly adequate for what you are doing (alternative to silver solder) so you really don't need to clean them up if you don't want to. Same with the interior of the 2" pipe, but you can if you want.

Nothing is a loss that I can see. Even the interior of your olives can be cleaned up with just a round hand file or just buy new ones if you don't want to screw with them (assuming they're cheap).

You can heat up the baffles and get the tubes straightened out if you want to, but remember you already know how to get the core back inside the 2" pipe too.

[Salt Must Flow]

You might be able to just solder what you currently have back up. Use a good amount of flux to keep things clean and the solder flowing.

[ecir54]

Have most of a shotgun fabed up. Going to use stay silv 5 on the plates then use lead free on the endcaps, ferule and water connections. This way there will be no way the pates will come loose.

Well Eric, I know I am a beginner, but take this advice and place some olives behind the end plates. It will make your end plates much sturdier. If I had done this, I wouldn't be ripping my rig apart when 95% complete.

I would also advise on the shims talked about in this thread. They were excellent.

why waste good olives lol. going to tack the end plate in place with some stay silv 5 on the water side so it has no chance to move once using soft solder on the product side.

[Hebden]

Have most of a shotgun fabed up. Going to use stay silv 5 on the plates then use lead free on the endcaps, ferule and water connections. This way there will be no way the pates will come loose.

Well Eric, I know I am a beginner, but take this advice and place some olives behind the end plates. It will make your end plates much sturdier. If I had done this, I wouldn't be ripping my rig apart when 95% complete.

I would also advise on the shims talked about in this thread. They were excellent.

why waste good olives lol. going to tack the end plate in place with some stay silv 5 on the water side so it has no chance to move once using soft solder on the product side.

Sounds like you know your solders better than me. I hope your build goes well buddy.

[Hebden]

Well the first goal in my mind would be to remove the core from the 2" pipe. Even a simple hand file can clean up the interior of the ends of that pipe. Like I said previously, I've done this easily using a Dremel tool.

Salt, this is the stage that concerns me. During my initial end plate install, I know so much solder passed into the water coolant side. So my condenser will not come out easily.

I could try filling from the out-side and using plenty solder and pooling it, but likely the weak joint will either go again in the future or when the steel ferruls solder temp will melt it even if it did work. I will beat this one way or another though.

[ecir54]

stay silv 5 and 15 is what we used in the air conditioning field. It will fill gaps and used for high pressure connections. Usually requires a oxygen acetylene setup to solder but for small stuff like this mapp gas would do the trick. Just don't use it on the product side of what is being built in this hobby. past experience shows if using map gas to solder a joint you will find the joint almost impossible to be removed with just map gas.

[Hebden]

stay silv 5 and 15 is what we used in the air conditioning field. It will fill gaps and used for high pressure connections. Usually requires a oxygen acetylene setup to solder but for small stuff like this mapp gas would do the trick. Just don't use it on the product side of what is being built in this hobby. past experience shows if using map gas to solder a joint you will find the joint almost impossible to be removed with just map gas.

Why not use it on the product side?
From where I am with broken joints, I would love something that was so tough.

[ecir54]

not advertised as lead free.

[Hebden]

Well the first goal in my mind would be to remove the core from the 2" pipe. Even a simple hand file can clean up the interior of the ends of that pipe. Like I said previously, I've done this easily using a Dremel tool.

You might be able to just solder what you currently have back up. Use a good amount of flux to keep things clean and the solder flowing.

Hi Salt, I just wanted to say I did not ignore your advice here and thanks for the help given in the construction site area.

The reason I did not salvage this build was because I reckon it was so average that it would have sprung a leak eventually even if I did patch it up.
Then I thought, I have spent many many pounds buyins ferrules and gaskets and pipe, that the shotty was worth being its best and all it needed was a little pipe and labour.

I will tear it down and use it for something in the future, I just don't know what yet.

[Salt Must Flow]

No worries Hebden. I just know that copper isn't cheap these days. If you are wanting and willing to do build it again that's great. You'll get it done and you'll love it.

[Hebden]

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Cheeky little nozzle made whilst awaiting 2" tube. I used the 2" ferrule that was a mess from the earlier ferrule effort. It cleaned up OK. Dropped down to 22mm, I could go lower anytime, just didn't know what was suggested ie 15mm?

I still am very uncomfortable soldering steel ferrules, half tempted to try a 3" section but I'm still waiting on stay bright 8 and liquid flux arriving today, can't see it being any easier.

I suppose my issue is I don't trust the solder to have traveled up hill with capillary action, so I'm caking it on I think.

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Another fail, right on the steel joint, soldering steel to copper is not easy.

[squigglefunk]

I have had good luck soldering stainless steel ferrules

using the proper solder and liquid flux, it can be pretty easy.

as others might have told you, heat the copper area, not the stainless.

heat just until flux bubbles. too hot and you burn off the flux.

if it doesn't seal at first, I have added more flux and reheated to get the solder that is already there to flow where you want it.

[Hebden]

heat just until flux bubbles. too hot and you burn off the flux.

Hmmm, well what is happening is I heat until flux bubbles and then start testing to see if solder will melt. It doesn't. So I keep on heating and I see flux browning and then flux melts.

However, I have misread somewhere along the lines as today I heated the steel ferrule and not the copper side.

Perhaps the flux is poor, more likely my technique is poor as I manage with copper to copper without so much flux browning.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/la-co-flux-p ... 125g/61072

My stay clean flux has arrived, it is the incorrect product, it doesn't look liquid, its a paste as was my original.

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[Salt Must Flow]

Most recommend using Harris Stay-Clean Liquid Flux. Here's a review of the paste flux that I found. They say it's easier to burn and harder to clean. Liquid flux is not quite, but almost self cleaning.

[Hebden]

I thought I had ordered liquid flux, can't believe my mistake. Amazingly I had just read that article twice when researching the liquid v paste by Harris.

I am annoyed at myself.

[squigglefunk]

Hmmm, well what is happening is I heat until flux bubbles and then start testing to see if solder will melt. It doesn't. So I keep on heating and I see flux browning and then flux melts.

However, I have misread somewhere along the lines as today I heated the steel ferrule and not the copper side.

Perhaps the flux is poor, more likely my technique is poor as I manage with copper to copper without so much flux browning.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/la-co-flux-p ... 125g/61072

My stay clean flux has arrived, it is the incorrect product, it doesn't look liquid, its a paste as was my original.


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ah yeah I can only say I used the liquid flux as was recommended and it seemed to work great.

Also I can say make sure your parts fit together tightly, any gaps will cause you problems. There needs to be good contact everywhere, don't try to fill in gaps with solder.

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[NormandieStill]

Also I can say make sure your parts fit together tightly, any gaps will cause you problems. There needs to be good contact everywhere, don't try to fill in gaps with solder.

This. Soldering is 99% prep. If you get the prep right, then the solder will just wick into the joint as soon as you hit the right temperature. Get the prep wrong and you're going to be futzing for hours trying to get the perfect temperature where the solder will melt but not pour so that it stays in a blob. A good solder joint starts with a good mechanical joint (overlapping surfaces with near zero space between them).

[Hebden]

ah yeah I can only say I used the liquid flux as was recommended and it seemed to work great.

Also I can say make sure your parts fit together tightly, any gaps will cause you problems. There needs to be good contact everywhere, don't try to fill in gaps with solder.

Squiggle, thanks again for your input, it is helping me understand.

I do have small 0.8mm gaps as UK 2" pipe does not fit 2" ferrules perfectly and in fact 3" pipe does not fit 3" ferrules "at all".

I'll try a new 2" ferrule abecause there is a reality that I have only worked one 2" ferrule so far and in cleaning it from my 2 past failures, I have made its OD smaller than original which had the gap to start with. I did this a) removing old solder and burn't flux b) grinding the ferrule edge to scuff for good abresion prep (how much should one sand/scuff steel?)

Unfortunately in the UK only one shop stocks the Harris "liquid" flux (an electronics shop) and it is ridiculously expensive and only in 4oz bottles. I did buy some yesterday as I need to make life easier for the 3" joints to follow. It would be nice to find a local product of such good reputation but so few people are based outside US on this forum it makes them rarer to find reviews.

This. Soldering is 99% prep. If you get the prep right, then the solder will just wick into the joint as soon as you hit the right temperature. Get the prep wrong and you're going to be futzing for hours trying to get the perfect temperature where the solder will melt but not pour so that it stays in a blob. A good solder joint starts with a good mechanical joint (overlapping surfaces with near zero space between them).

Nice to hear from you again Normandie, honestly I have been prepping well, however your temperature comment and pour v blob helped in my mind to understand the flow.

Can I ask, in detail about this good mechanical joint:
Can it be "too tight" for solder to flow? For my 3" pipe ID 73mm, I am going to have to use 2.5" Nominal Bore ferrules with OD 73.03mm, this is a wonderfully tight fit in real life.

[NormandieStill]

I theory you could get it too tight for solder, but in reality it's never going to happen. I learnt to solder by brazing steel (chromoly) with phosphor-bronze. I knew I'd got my head around it when test brazing a flat strip (more or less) to a curved pipe. When I applied the solder at one end it appeared almost immediately at the other end of the joint. It took a tiny bit of bronze but the resulting joint could not be pulled apart despite two of us using some serious leverage.

The SS ferrules on my column are 2" and fitted into 54mm heavy gauge pipe (54x1.5mm). I tapped them in with a block of wood and a hammer having put flux on before hand. Zero leaks!

And here in mainland Europe you can get Griffon S39 which is a liquid flux designed for using on zinc and SS. Works a treat, and you might be able to get a pot shipped from Europe for less than you'll pay for what looks like a sample bottle of StayClean.