6" Flute on a 26 gallon boiler??

[vagabondmountainman]

I've been running a 4 inch flute on a 26 gallon boiler for a little over a year now and am thinking about moving up to a 6 inch to save time on runs. I'm not sure if there's enough alcohol in a 20 gallon 8-10% wash for a 6 inch flute. Doing 20-22 gallon runs of bourbon and scotch on the 4 inch, if I run nice and slow in the sweet spot usually takes me 7-9 hours a run which is fine, but it would be nice to be able to distill a batch off in 1/2 the time and get in a run after work now and then. I haven't been able to find much on the threads regarding minimum boiler size for a 6 incher though since most hobbyists run 3 or 4 inch flutes. Thanks in advance if anyone can answer my question.

[Saltbush Bill]

Ive run and do run a four and a six incher on a similar sized, boiler " 30gal" .....it will work fine and makes for much shorter runs times. I upgraded to six for the very same reason.....time.
To make it more productive sometimes I add a good dose of low wines or feints ...or both from the same sort of spirit to the boiler charge, on those occasions its a longer run but well worth the effort, the keep is a big one.

[bluefish_dist]

I ran lots of low wines through my vodka still which was about 30 gallons with 6” column. It would pull 1/2 gallon every 20 min to start. That will make for a pretty short run off of wort. 6” over low wines is about right for 30 gallons. Personally I would stay 4” if I was doing a one and done.

I ran a 6” over my 100 gal boiler for wort/wash with 12kw. Could pull 1/2 gal every 12 min at the start. Would make for a quick run over 26 gallons. I could run 100 gal through a 6” in 9 hrs including a 3.5hr warm up. I originally used a 4” on the 100 gal still but was 12 hrs or so for a run. I would think a bit of tweaking of your parameters would get you under 7hr per run on the 4”. But a 6” will be faster if you have the power to push it. A 6” can take 12kw easily.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks gentlemen, it sounds like it will be a good upgrade. I'm running the boiler on a big natural gas burner with more than enough BTU's to pump in at least 3x the heat that I run the 4" on if needed, but I'm guessing once its producing I won't need that much. I might switch to electric at some point, but probably not unless I "go pro" and open up a micro distillery with a larger boiler in the a few years.
For now using my gas brew system is more practical.

One other question on design though-- I've read that some people increase height a lot when they increase column size but not sure if this is necessary when making full flavored spirits vs neutrals. The 6 inch column I was looking at buying is almost the same height as the 4" column I'm currently running. Its a 4 section modular system from Distillex and total height is around 1 meter. The bubble plate T sections are 150mm ea, which is the same height and spacing for my 4" column as well. Do you see any issues with that design? I'm almost exclusively doing all grain bourbon, wheat whiskey, and scotch with an occasional rum if that makes a difference. Usually I run 3 plates.

Link to 6" column below.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001268 ... 1876phxTDr

[Andrew_90]

Question,

At what point is the surface area of the boiler insufficient to feed and increased diameter column. Is there some formula for this?

[bluefish_dist]

For flavored spirits, number of plates is the variable to control along with reflux rate. Height is not critical other than having enough space between plates. 5-6” should be plenty.

I have never found anything that relates surface area to output rate. My understanding is output is only related to heat input. Area does matter for heat transfer into the wort/wash. Too much heat in too little area creates hot spots which can burn any remaining sugars or solids. Probably not an issue with your setup.

[tjsc5f]

I think if flavored spirits are what you're after, you could maybe save some money and just buy 1-2x 6" sections and reducers to use the rest of your current equipment. I would imagine it would be nearly impossible for you to pull off less than 160 proof for a bourbon (sticking to the "rules") if you're running 2x 6" plates anyway.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks Bluefish. That's exactly what I was hoping you would say. Anything much taller would be tough to fit in my garage.

TJSC-- good idea. I thought about that too. The only thing is to get 2 6" sections, and 2 reducers with shipping would be close to $800, and I wouldn't be able to sell my 4" column. I think I can sell my 4" rig on ebay or locally to cover most of the cost of the new still.

[shadylane]

One run and done with a flute is also limited by how much power the mash can take before it starts foaming up and wanting to puke if there's not boiler agitation.

[vagabondmountainman]

One run and done with a flute is also limited by how much power the mash can take before it starts foaming up and wanting to puke if there's not boiler agitation.

What are your favorite methods for reducing foaming, or what do you recommend for agitation Shady? When I mash, I always do a 10 minute or so boil after sparging to get a hot break and precipitate a lot of the protein out of the wort. Then when I run the still, if I'm running 2 or 3 plates, I leave my bottom section empty as just a sight glass, and put the bubble plates on the top 2 or 3 sections. Then I heat up fairly fast, until the bottom T section starts to get pretty hot to the touch. Soon after that, when I just start to see foam coming up through the bottom sight glass I cut the heat a quite a bit to the level that usually loads the plates. Usually I won't get any foaming once the plates are loaded. I'm sure there is a much better process though. I've heard of people putting marbles or copper in the boiler, or adding butter or oil, but I've never tried either of those.

[shadylane]

Don't forget another option.
Stripping runs with a puke box.

[bluefish_dist]

Two things to control foaming, 1) anti foam. 2) less power until you get a hot break.

[Saltbush Bill]

2) less power until you get a hot break.

Heat up as fast as you like, back off power once puke starts, go low n slow for a bit then increase power again, should minimize problems.
Adding some low wines to a wash also helps......that percentage is your choice.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks guys. One more question. If you were buying a new 6 inch flute, would you go with a stainless steel column and figure the copper in the bubble plates is enough, or go with a full copper column? The difference in price isn't enough to worry about over the long run. I love my 4" copper flute, but stainless is a lot easier to clean and take care of, and I'm not sure how much work the column itself does to clean up the spirit. It seems like the bubble plates do most of the work. But maybe the copper column itself does a lot too. Any advice?

I know copper vs stainless has been debated endlessly on homedistiller, just curious what you guys thought as you have a lot of expertise when it comes to running flutes.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'll say copper every time.......never been a fan of stainless stills.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks Saltbush. I'll go with that. It sure does look prettier.

[vagabondmountainman]

I ran lots of low wines through my vodka still which was about 30 gallons with 6” column. It would pull 1/2 gallon every 20 min to start. That will make for a pretty short run off of wort. 6” over low wines is about right for 30 gallons. Personally I would stay 4” if I was doing a one and done.

Hey Bluefish-- I was so excited you said a 6 inch would work, I didn't take the time to contemplate that you said you'd stick with a 4" column for a one and done. Why is that? Does the 4 inch make as smoother product, or is there a certain boiler size or volume of distillers beer that you have to reach before the 6" is comparable in quality? I pretty much always do one and done with my flute, the exceptions being running it as a pot with no plates to double distill scotch, and occasionally running neutrals through 4 plates twice. I was about to order the 6 inch rig, but then I reread your comment and thought I better ask. I definitely want to be able to keep making good bourbon's on a single one and done run and would hate for the quality to drop off by going too big. I love this hobby and am constantly humbled by how much there is to learn.

[bluefish_dist]

Why I would stay with 4” on a 25-30 gal still vs a 6”. First a 6” needs power, I run electric and would need a second 240 outlet to run two 5500w heaters. May or may not be an issue for you.

Second, I could pull 1/2 gallon every 12 min off a 6”. Abv was 140 ish. So that’s around 1.5 gal of pure alcohol per hour. So that’s about 2 hrs of run time. Even with a 4” that’s only 4 hrs. So for a lot more $$ you save 2 ish hours on a run. Warm up time is the same for both if you have enough power. Also I found that my packed 6 ft 4” ran about the same abv as my 8 ft 6”. My 4” 8 ft packed ran better than my 6”. Higher abv, ie more neutral. 190.2 vs 190.5 proof. Minor, but a measurable difference. If I were to ever run vodka again, I would rather have the higher proof as speed is not so critical for a home distiller.

Now when I was running 1-2x per week and running 30 gal of low wines, the extra speed of the 6” was worth it. I had plenty of power and the difference in run time is way more than 2 hrs due to running 30 gal of low wines vs 30 gal of wort. For 30 gal of low wines you would save about 4 hours. So a 8 or 9 hr total run vs 12-14 hrs. On a 30 gal run of wort, it’s easy to get done in 6-8 hr with a 4”. So I chop 2 hrs off, is that worth double the cost of my column and extra cost of wiring? For you to decide.

[shadylane]

"6" Flute on a 26 gallon boiler.
Are we talking about 6" bubble cap plates or sieve plates in the flute?

[RC Al]

So having a look at the unit linked
They list the reg caps at 8kw and "professional" caps at 14kw.. thats a pretty big difference, I for one would like to see how they qualify that.
The 6" section height would be a deal breaker for me, if i was spending that sort of $$ i would get 9"+ tall. Not from any experience, just theory posted in old threads that suggests that the extra head room is needed to push harder without entrainment.

Bluefish is saying you can run a 4" bubbler at 5l an hour, not my experience with out lots of smearing, infact the few people I know with a 6" dont run them much faster than that, I run my 4" at 2-3l/h on 3 plates and set reflux to run the abv at 87 - 91 abv

[shadylane]

Just my drunken 2 cents worth.
Bubble caps work best when run slow and easy.
If you want to run faster than that, have a bigger plate with more caps.

[Saltbush Bill]

Bluefish is saying you can run a 4" bubbler at 5l an hour, not my experience with out lots of smearing

Agree RC......those are crazy speeds imo....you can do it but your going to end up with shitty booze.

[bluefish_dist]

I ran sieve plates as fast as possible without flooding. Pro caps do run faster than regular caps by quite a bit. Sieve run even faster. The numbers I quoted were first takeoff rates. I would increase reflux as needed to hold purity and take off rate slows down. Can’t get that much out that fast at the end of a run.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks everyone for the replies...

It I'll have to check into the power limits of those bubblecaps RC. That could make a big difference, but I'm not sure how to find to research it.

It sounds like I'm running at about the same speed as RC Al, which appears to be about half the speed that Bluefish can get. Maybe its due to my lack of experience, or maybe the speed has to due with me running bourbons and scotch rather than a neutral? Probably a bit of both but mainly my comparable lack of experience.

I've been keeping close track of the time for volume of the last 10 runs or so with my 4" column running 3 plates on 20-22 gallon charges of 8-9% ABV wort for bourbon, Irish whiskey, and wheat whiskey.

I'm running on natural gas, and I usually have an hour or so of heat up time before the plates start loading. I might be running too slow, but here's how a run normally goes.

Once I get the plates loaded, the still mostly runs itself with just an occasional change to gas input or depleg volume. I pull off the 1st couple 8 ounce jars of fores and early heads at a slow to medium drip at a time of around 20-25 min a jar proof around 184-188. (Head temp usually around 162-164 degrees if that matters) I'll pull off another 4-5, 8 ounce jars a little faster at a medium to fast drip at about 15 min a jar, proof dropping from 184 down to 176 so, head temp at around 164-176 degrees. After that, the heat will naturally climb and the take off rate will increase on its own without me doing much as I near the transition from heads to hearts. I'll pull off a couple more 8 ounce jars at a broken stream at around 1 minute an ounce/6-8 minutes a jar, proof dropping from 174 down into the mid 160's or high 150's head temp around 178-180. At that point I'm solidly in hearts and I decrease the water on the dephleg, and it starts producing at around 1 quart every 24-26 minutes for about 4-6 quarts, with the proof dropping down and settling in around 120 or so. Head temp naturally climbing from 180-188. At that point the proof will usually drop to 110 or so and I'll increase the dephleg and adjust the heat to keep it in the 115-120 proof range and take the rest of the run at about 1 minute per ounce, head temp creeping up to 192-196 or so When I do finally hit cardboard/ unkeepable tails, there is hardly anything. Usually 1 8 ounce jar around 110 which I'll keep, then one at 105, and one in the 90 range and then the next 16 ounces is down around 60% and I shut it off.

The sweet spot for the 4" bubble plates I have seems to be around 2.25-3quarts/ liters per hour max. Any faster and it smears to much and proof drops off very quickly. My dephleg and shotgun condenser can both handle more power, but that's as fast as it seems to want to produce. More power just means I have to add more dephleg, but the production rate is about the same unless I want the proof to drop off. I could probably run about 1.5x as fast if I wanted the heart run to average 110 rather than 120-140, but I'm worried about a drop in quality.

My total run time with 20-22 gallons of wort is always around 7-9 hours depending on how fast I take off fores heads and how stingy I am with tails--If I'm tossing them all I run a little quicker, but often I try to separate out the medium to late heads and the tails to rerun in a feints run.

If a 6" column would let me get a run done half time, more like 4 hours I'd be very happy with that. If it only cut the run time from 8 hours down to 6 though, probably not worth it as you say Bluefish. I usually run 2-3x a month lately as I've been off work for a while due to an injury and have had a lot of time to kill. Also I was bored during the pandemic and gave myself a goal-- I call it the Pandemic Whiskey Project. The idea was make enough good whiskey during the pandemic and age it so I can pull out a bottle of "pandemic whiskey" to celebrate the end of this interesting time with friends and family once every year for the rest of my life. I don't know what my stuff will taste like in 30 or 40 or 50 years, or even the best way to age it for that long, but its been fun trying to put it away, and I've learned a lot in the process. I'm back to work soon, which means a lot less time to distill, hence trying to speed up the process a bit.

Anyway sorry for the long post. I get a bit longwinded sometimes when I'm sipping whiskey and trying to work things out in my head. And thanks again everyone for all the suggestions. I don't post much, but this forum has kept me educated and entertained for countless hours over the last few years. If anyone knows how I can speed things up or has any other advice, I'm very grateful and appreciative. If I can get a good 6" flute ordered before inflation drives the price up too much I'll get one and post how it works, or doesn't work.

[shadylane]

Just my drunken 2 cents worth.
One run and done with a flute is fun to watch,
But if you want a better whiskey, strip first.
Especially, if you're drinking white and young and not planning on aging in barrels for a couple years.

The cons of stripping are a major decrease in efficiency due to the extra time and power needed.
The pros of stripping is much of the tails stay in the boiler and get drained out.
Instead of being boiled for hours while the column is running.

[Saltbush Bill]

Especially, if you're drinking white and young and not planning on aging in barrels for a couple years.

Thats the key point I think Shady, if you want to drink it white and young, personally Ive never had trouble holding back tails with a plated column, that is one thing that they do do very well imo.
Having said that I do at times run 50-50 mix of low wines and wash......other times straight wash, depends on the circumstances and what I'm making at the time.

[shadylane]

I hear Ya.
There's a fuck ton of ways to getter done.
And even more ideas about what "done" is.

My 2 cents.
Plated and packed columns are great for holding back tails.
But I think it's better to do stripping runs.
In the long run, after cuts there's more in the hearts jar.

A flute works better when starting with boiler full of lowines.
You don't have to worry about puking in the column.
Or having to compromise how the column is run, because of what a boiler full of mash requires.

[vagabondmountainman]

Just my drunken 2 cents worth.
One run and done with a flute is fun to watch,
But if you want a better whiskey, strip first.
Especially, if you're drinking white and young and not planning on aging in barrels for a couple years.

The cons of stripping are a major decrease in efficiency due to the extra time and power needed.
The pros of stripping is much of the tails stay in the boiler and get drained out.
Instead of being boiled for hours while the column is running.

How many plates to you recommend running with a boiler full of low wines to get good flavor Shady? I've saved up the late heads and tails from my last 8 or so wheat whiskey and bourbon runs and am going to rerun them later this week. I was going to take out all the plates, and just run it as a pot run, using the dephleg for a little reflux at the very beginning to concentrate heads, and then running as a pot to try not to strip too much more flavor. But if you think 1 or 2 or some other number plates would be better, its worth a try. Or is that approach better if you haven't already removed the hearts as in a feints run? Everything has already been run through 3 plates once, with a conservative hearts cut since I knew I was saving everything for a feints run.

[shadylane]

Potstill it.
If it's not clean enough, do it again.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks Shady